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| "dream Girl"; What huh? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 2 2010, 11:05 PM (2,671 Views) | |
| Quexinos | Oct 15 2010, 03:38 AM Post #91 |
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WOO HOO!
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That's exactly the point!
What other stories. I mean I understand you said like the movie Ghost portray love after death, but how many other stories that used the phrase "A love that can never be" did you see this happen in?
Well, I didn't say they DO, but that they COULD or at least possibly could. Again I'm assuming this because Kadaj could see her and the kids could see her too. I don't see why being a child vs adult should matter. I mean I've seen theories on the matter but never a definite statement from anyone. So it would seem weird to me that some random kids could see her but Avalanche couldn't.
Could be... but do you think Cloud could see and hear her there? Also this seems familiar, in fact I edited an Ozy and Millie comic about it: http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/327/quexandanastar.gif and just so no one thinks I'm picking on anyone. Here's the other way around: http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7995/quexandanastar2.gif Here's the original: http://www.ozyandmillie.org/d/20021018.html There are so many LTD related arguments you could put in there. |
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| Anastar | Oct 15 2010, 12:00 PM Post #92 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Note to Quex: I edited your post to change your images to links since they were stretching the page.
Oh, I see... so you've been arguing about whether or not the commercial lied in an attempt to discredit something that Clerith people tend to use as evidence? Furthermore, those cartoons seem to be making fun of Clerith ideas. *considers a warning for Quex* <_< And by the way, I never said the commercial lied. I said that it wouldn't have relevance to the story or plot IF it lied. As I said in anther part of my last post, it's not lying if the possibility exists that she can appear as a ghost or spirit. And given that the same idea is used in other stories, then it's possible that she may appear as a ghost or spirit for all we know.
I didn't say that "a love that the phrase was used in reference to other stories (although I'm sure it has - I just haven't researched it). I said that the idea of love continuing after death and/or the idea of a loved one appearing as a ghost was used in other stories.
Kadaj is dying, so he's approaching the Lifestream. Cloud saw both Aerith and Zack as he was dying, too, so why wouldn't Kadaj? Since the kids all received a phone call from Aerith while adults didn't would reinforce the idea that kids can see her while adults can't. Also the fact that Nojima said that Cloud is being baptized in a sense when he reappears in the pool of water reinforces the idea that Cloud is like a child who can see Aerith: I had already decided on the ending from the start, so I wrote the script in a way that gradually built up to what I had planned. The last scene shows Cloud being baptized in a sense, and although it's a little strange to associate a baptism with training, it's sort of a symbolic way of showing him overcoming his trials. It can also be thought of as a new beginning for Cloud, although I hadn't really thought about that aspect while writing it. ~Nojima, pg. 10, Reunion Files Nomura also refers to Cloud being like a kid in the Reunion Files: Not only was she [Tifa] looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a 'big kid' himself in some respects. ~Nomura, Reunion Files Nojima also describes Cloud like a child or as being child-like several times curing Case of Tifa.
Could be. He doesn't look up, but does that mean he's not able to see her when he was able to at other times during the movie?
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| PianoxLullaby | Oct 15 2010, 01:05 PM Post #93 |
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Cloud's Little Sistah
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Wasn't it stated that those close to the Lifestream could sense it greater and probably see consciousness of people through it better? (Thus children as they were part of the lifestream not too long ago, elders who are getting closer to it, and those dying who are like, as close as you can get without already being dead.). Also, since Aerith's consciousness lives on in Cloud, that would explain why he's able to see her (plus he's dying of Geostigma during most of the movie, or at least, there's the possibility he's dying of it) so those put together, well, you don't even really need the Geostigma part once you have that her consciousness lives on inside him. I haven't a way to explain Zack. He came with Aerith so maybe she did something so he could be seen? Aerith was a special case in the Lifestream and was able to speak with all the others there, right? But, now with ACC, hmmm.... yeah, I really don't know how to explain Zack. Maybe like what Anastar said, Cloud is very much like a child. Oh, and what about the Lifestream event thing? He was emerged in the Lifestream for a loooong time or something, wasn't he? Or was that Mako? FFF, my memory is horrible! |
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| Shiva | Oct 15 2010, 02:15 PM Post #94 |
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Legendary Member
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Some points I'd like to make: * Nomura didn't say it was because Cloud was dying that he could see Aerith. Nomura said that Cloud saw Aerith because her consciousness lives inside of Cloud. We know specifically why Cloud could see Aerith, so there's no reason to think that Cloud wouldn't be able to see her after being healed. Her consciousness wasn't living inside of Cloud because he was dying. * Usually things happen in a movie for a reason. Why would SE only show that Cloud can see her, and no other member of Avalanche? That shows a significant relationship between Cloud and Aerith that isn't shared by the other members of Avalanche. Otherwise, SE would've shown that the other members of Avalanche - her friends - can see her, too. * Zack could see Angeal while he was dying. * Some kids seem able to see Aerith, but I don't know if all of them can. The creators did say that kids are closer to the Lifestream because they've recently arrived from it. That makes sense as to why some are able to. Perhaps age makes a difference? Perhaps the strength of their egos, similar to who can withstand the introduction of Jenova cells? I don't know. But I don't know if all kids can see Aerith. However, all children seem able to hear her when adults can't. That's why kids get the phone calls at the end of ACC, but adults don't. It's the same at the end of FFVII. Who was it who came to the windows at the end of FFVII? It was the kids (including Marlene). They sensed Aerith. Children are also seen in Aerith's church tending to the flowers if Cloud goes to visit there in Disk Two. So children are shown to have a special affinity and/or ability to sense Aerith after she dies. It's sort of the same as in real life. Children and animals seem to be more sensitive to the paranormal than adults. I know I've heard a lot of stories about children seeing spirits and the ability doesn't always last into adulthood. * Saying Aerith actually saw Kadaj is pure speculation. There are actually two quotes that state that only Aerith's presence was felt. Initially, the church scene was placed immediately after Sephiroth's defeat. None of the sequences with Kadaj were there, such as the scene where Kadaj feels Aerith's presence and disappears into the rain. We wanted to make Kadaj someone who also needed salvation. I'm glad that this part made it into the movie." (Nomura; Reunion Files) "The original script didn't have the scene where Kadaj disappears and Aerith's presence is felt, but I thought they really needed to be saved from their tragic existence. I wanted to include a scene that strongly suggests they were saved in the end...." (Nomura; Reunion Files) So, what was Kadaj responding to? Aerith's maternal presence. It seems as though he can hear her words, but, at the same time, it is also possible that he simply feels a presence and hears a whisper, but cannot make out the words. He reaches upward and disappears. He doesn't take a hand. There's simply nothing there and saying that there is is AGAIN pure speculation, especially when Nomura himself has specifically stated that this is a scene where Aerith's presence is felt. He said nothing about anyone seeing her. So, can Cloud feel Aerith's presence at that point? I'm sure he did, because he immediately stands up after that and turns his face up into the rain, reveling in it as if he feels Aerith is there and the rain is her touch. * We don't know that Cloud actually saw Zack in the new scene added to ACC. Cloud's back was to Zack at the time. He never turned to look at him. As far as we know, he only heard Zack's voice. And why could he do that? There are a million reasons why. In the first place, Zack has a strong will, and with the crazy amount of Lifestream present during that battle, the two factors could have been enough for him to speak into Cloud's mind. Regardless, their conversation literally had to take place within mere seconds. After all, Sephiroth isn't just going to patiently stand by while Cloud has a talk with his dead mentor, is he? In the second place, Aerith was also present in the background during Cloud's battle with Sephiroth (as proven by the "Is it her?" scene), so she could be aiding Zack. After all, Aerith is the one who can manipulate the Lifestream, not Zack. And, as a denizen of the Lifestream, he could receive aid from Aerith to speak with Cloud. And, at the end, Zack appears with Aerith, who is probably once again enabling him to appear. It could also be due to the fact that Cloud was just resurrected by Aerith and had recently returned from the Lifestream himself. |
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| Anastar | Oct 15 2010, 04:22 PM Post #95 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Just to qualify... I quoted Nomura earlier saying that Cloud was able to see Aerith because her consciousness lives inside of him. I didn't mean to imply here that dying is the *reason* Cloud was able to see her in that scene. I was just suggesting that might be a factor in Kadaj being able to see Aerith. However, your quotes from the Reunion Files show that Kadaj didn't see her anyway:
Thank you - I didn't have those quotes! ![]() I also loved the other points you made. All of them are *excellent*!! But I especially loved this one:
I'd never thought of Aerith helping Zack to appear, but that's a *very* good point. You're absolutely right. If she's able to manipulate the Lifestream to the extent that it's been shown, then she should have no trouble helping Zack to appear. |
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| Quexinos | Oct 15 2010, 08:44 PM Post #96 |
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WOO HOO!
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Okay first of all, no I'm not trying to discredit it so much as prove the point that if the commercial is wrong, it has no bearing on the actual plot anyway so it doesn't matter. You yourself said that. That's exactly the point. I'm repeating the point you just made because that's a point I've been trying to make and you ... well seemed to finally agree. You were at least seeing things from the other PoV and I just thought it was neat. I'm not saying one of us is right and one of us is wrong, just glad that you could finally see exactly where some people come from. Maybe you don't care about that but I kinda find it important myself. Second of all it was making fun of the fact that we seem to argue alot about the same thing over and over. The punchline is "How many times are we going to have this conversation?" Third of all the second one used a Cloti argument, hell one that I used. (the "Why can he see Zack?" I mean how many Clotis have said that now to try to disprove the consciousness thing?) And I specifically stated that I made two comics so that no one took offense. But since you did anyway, I'll apologize and say I didn't mean to offend. I honestly thought you'd find it as funny as I did. I even made some others using like the "It's one sided" koibito argument and "Maiden isn't canon" stuff. I just didn't post them because... well it was the same joke over and over again so I didn't think it'd be necessary. Besides it's Ozy and Millie, how can you take offense to that? D:
I don't think he really meant Cloud was a kid so much as reborn. I know a lot of Christian religions baptize only children, but Jehova's Witnesses, for example, wait until you're an adult. They do consider it being "reborn", (which would be new life from the lifestream.) I think that's more of what he meant. Cloud's not a child in that scene, he's reborn.
I didn't say he couldn't ![]()
I don't know, I've heard that though... but I'm not sure if people are confusing our world with their world or if that really was a quote. If it was a quote, I'd love to see it. As Shiva said, it's kinda the same in our world, kids will experience paranormal activity more than adults and are usually the first to notice if a place is haunted.
Point, especially in a CG movie. But I always assumed it was because Cloud was the main character. I mean what would Barret gain from seeing Aerith again?
I actually thought he was dead, but if not, yes. Well that's just another reason I thought Kadaj actually saw her.
I never noticed that I guess. I remember Marlene and that's it. That's an interesting point though because the idea sorta continues in AC then.
That's... kinda weird... so he was just going to die then? On the other hand, Kadaj killed and hurt a lot of people so does he deserve salvation? It really did look like he was taking a hand or something there. I don't know why they made it look that way if he honestly wasn't grabbing onto something, but I can't argue with Nomura.
I think it's said somewhere that it took place in his mind. Or that the one in the Forgotten City did so I assume the one with Zack was the same way. Also he might not have seen Zack in the new scene, but he did in the end right? I mean the AC playback book said he did IIRC.
Wait I thought that was your idea. You posted it here: http://z8.invisionfree.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/...wtopic=9599&hl= |
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| Anastar | Oct 16 2010, 04:22 PM Post #97 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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I agree that it wouldn't have relevance to the story or plot *IF* it were lying, *BUT* I never said it was lying. ![]()
Yeah, I think it's more important whether or not their love continued and whether it was able to continue. What the commercial said or whether it was right or wrong is minor in comparison to what actually happens in the story.
Okay. Then, sorry - I was over-reacting. ![]()
Again, maybe I'm over-reacting, but what I'm looking at is whether or not we'd warn other Cloti's for it. After all, we can't treat you as special, so I need to be bitch to you, too. But thank you for the apology. ![]()
But Nojima specifically said Cloud was being baptized in a sense, not reborn. And as you said, those who baptize as an adult are definitely a minority in comparison to those who baptize as children, so isn't it more likely to compare this baptism to the more common example? Furthermore, Cloud is referred to as a child by SE on several occasions. Here's three different excerpts from Case of Tifa: [During a conversation with Tifa] ... Cloud made a familiar face, like a child who knew a scolding was inevitable... ~Case of Tifa Cloud gazed at Tifa with the expression of a child whose worst secret had just been let out of the bag... ~Case of Tifa ...He's like a child, Tifa thought. While it made her sad that Cloud could see another world she knew nothing about, the idea his world was expanding at all was a welcome one. Yes... Maybe this is kind of what a mother feels like. Once she saw Cloud off, Tifa was alone with the new emotions growing inside her and was happy. ~Case of Tifa Nomura also said this in the Reunion Files: Not only was she [Tifa] looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a 'big kid' himself in some respects. ~Nomura, Reunion Files With all of these references to Cloud as a child, it seems to make more sense that this is a comparison to the baptism of a child than to the baptism of an adult.
You implied it. From your post of October 14th: "Plus Kadaj sees Aerith when he's dying, you can tell he reached out to something and at that moment Cloud doesn't even seem to notice her."
I'd love to see the quote, too. I don't have a quote like that in my notes, and I'd love to have it if it exists.
What do the children gain from seeing Aerith? Point is, if SE wanted us to know that Avalanche could see Aerith, it would have been shown in the movie - but they didn't. Plus, Nomura said that Cloud could see Aerith because her consciousness lives on inside of him. They haven't said that Aerith's consciousness lives on inside of anyone else.
I think the important part of those quotes is the part that I highlighted. It says that Aerith's presence is felt. It doesn't say that Kadaj sees her. I agree that it's a bit weird that Nomura wants Kadaj to achieve salvation, though. Why would anyone want to see him saved after all he's done? Are enemies usually saved at the end of games? Does anyone want to see Sephiroth saved? Why weren't Loz and Yazoo saved? :lol:
Actually, YOU were the one who stated that idea on that page. I got the idea from you. :lol: But it makes sense that Aerith was helping Zack to appear. I mean, Aerith and Zack spent some 12 hours with Cloud while Aerith was healing him and bringing him back. It makes you wonder what was happening during all that time. But it seems that Aerith would realize what good friends Cloud and Zack were during that time, and there was plenty of reason for her to realize that earlier. So why wouldn't she want Cloud to see the friend who was there while he was being "resurrected" and/or healed? |
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| Quexinos | Oct 17 2010, 08:35 AM Post #98 |
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WOO HOO!
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Can't you just treat me like a member? ![]()
I understand Cloud is like a big kid, but there's probably many others who are big kids like that. Yuffie's kinda childish sometimes. And I dunno I always thought Reno was kind of childish too. And either way, you'd agree Cloud was reborn there right?
Oh I thought you said "Does that mean Cloud can't see her at other times in the movie." I dunno if he can see her or not for sure, but he didn't seem to really respond to her voice and he looked almost confused as to what was happening to Kadaj. Although he probably wasn't expecting him to turn into lifestream.
Not specifically in that way but they've said she lives on in their hearts which I thought was the same thing really but I'm guessing you don't. As for kids seeing Aerith, I think Aerith has a bond with kids. As Shiva pointed out only the kids come to their windows at the end of FFVII, and there were kids taking care of the flowers in FFVII. So I think it's important to show that bond continues.
I think Yazoo deserved it more than anyone ![]() ... mostly cause he's my fav SHM, but still...
Really? Well I didn't come up with it. Maybe it wasn't you but someone gave me the idea. Now I'm wondering where I heard that XD |
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| Anastar | Oct 18 2010, 11:53 PM Post #99 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Seems it was just the other day when you said to someone that they didn't get your joke. Seems you didn't realize I was teasing with the quoted words, either. What I said to you about the cartoons and commercial was serious and would have been said to other members, too.
But where are Yuffie and Reno referred to as a child by SE? I gave four different quotes where Cloud's referred to as a child by Nojima and Nomura. I only remember one quote from SE about Yuffie being a kid.
But Nojima said Cloud was being "baptized in a sense", not "reborn".
Actually I said, "Does that mean Cloud can't see her at other times in the movie????" < Notice the question mark. In other words, I was asking you whether that meant Cloud can't see her in other parts of the movie because I think it's pretty damned obvious that he CAN, especially since she's shown in his eye and takes her hand and walks toward the entrance of the Church when he sees her.
I guess you didn't see the quotes Shiva posted which said that Aerith's presence was felt. That *could* mean that only Kadaj sensed her presence, or it *could* mean that Cloud also felt her presence instead of seeing her. As Nomura said in Distance: Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview So Cloud doesn't necessarily see her when he feels her presence coz it's apparently not the same thing as someone's consciousness living inside of you. However, given that Cloud saw her in other parts of the movie, it's possible that he saw her in this scene, too.
Why wouldn't Kadaj turn into lifestream if he's dying? Doesn't everyone else turn into lifestream when they die?
Let's look at those quotes: It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion Screenshot of translation from adventchildren.net Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him, she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off. For Cloud, and the world once again faced with danger, she reaches out and offers her aid. In that sense she is like a mother watching over the entire planet, and it gives the feeling that she lives in every part of the world. ~Aerith's character profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview In the first two quotes, it specifically talks about Aerith living on in Cloud's heart as well as in the hearts of her friends. The first two quotes say nothing about Aerith's consciousness. The quote from Distance talks consciousness only. It mentions nothing about hearts.
Agreed. |
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| Quexinos | Oct 19 2010, 04:28 AM Post #100 |
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WOO HOO!
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Isn't one enough?
Isn't it kind of the same thing? ... I guess I thought being baptized was like... washing away your sinful past and stuff. That's what I remember anyway XD.. I don't even remember what this had to do with anything ![]()
Well yeah he can see her and I never said he couldn't at those times.
I thought you were saying that Cloud COULD see Aerith there but Kadaj only felt it or something. If you're not saying that then ignore what I said.
But how often do you get to see it happen right in front of you? It didn't happen like that with Aerith or Zack or anyone who was dying in Nibelheim. In fact I think Kadaj is a pretty special case to be able to see him turn to lifestream right away like that. So it was probably kinda new to Cloud to see it happen like that.
So the difference is the mention of consciousness? IS that what you're saying? |
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| Shiva | Oct 19 2010, 01:13 PM Post #101 |
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Legendary Member
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I think the reason Kadaj turned back into Lifestream like that is because he and the other two SHM essentially are formed from Lifestream. That is how Sephiroth created them, from negative Lifestream (shown at the beginning of ACC). All Aerith had to do was cleanse the negative Lifestream. When she purified it, Sephiroth's will lost control, because he cannot control pure Lifestream, only negative. Aerith is the only one who can manipulate pure Lifestream. That being said, I don't think she can manipulate negative Lifestream. She has to purify it first and turn it back into untainted Lifestream. At that point, it just merges back with the Lifestream moving around the planet. |
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| Anastar | Oct 19 2010, 11:04 PM Post #102 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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But Yuffie *is* a kid. In comparison, Cloud is an adult whose behavior is *like* a kid. Besides, saying that Yuffie's like a kid doesn't mean that Cloud's *not* like a kid.
Definition of baptism from Dictionary.com: bap·tism –noun 1. Ecclesiastical. a ceremonial immersion in water, or application of water, as an initiatory rite or sacrament of the Christian church. 2. any similar ceremony or action of initiation, dedication, etc. 3. a trying or purifying experience or initiation. 4. Christian Science. purification of thought and character. Definition of rebirth from Dictionary.com re·birth –noun 1. a new or second birth: the rebirth of the soul. 2. a renewed existence, activity, or growth; renaissance or revival: the rebirth of conservatism. Baptism is more like an initiation, while rebirth is more like a renewal or second birth. To say that Cloud is being reborn is essentially saying that he's a new or different person now. If he's being baptized, then he's being purified or cleansed, presumably of his guilt.
I'm saying we don't know for sure whether Cloud can see her or not since it only says that her presence is felt. However, given that Cloud does see her in all other parts of the film, then he most likely can.
I saw it happen during the game every time an enemy died in battle. I didn't think they were just "disappearing" - I assumed they were turning into lifestream.
See Shiva's response to you (excellent point, Shiva! ^_^).
Basically, yes. The quotes about heart don't say anything about Aerith's consciousness. The quotes about heart also don't say anything about being able to see her, while the quote about Aerith's consciousness does. It seems to me that "living in one's heart" = your fondness or love for that person continuing. "One's consciousness living inside you" = that person's soul actually living inside of you so that you can see them. |
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| Quexinos | Oct 20 2010, 11:15 PM Post #103 |
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WOO HOO!
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You edited your post, that's not what you had the other day. ... that's okay I do it all the time. Anyways that's true about Yuffie basically being a kid, and no her being a kid doesn't mean Cloud's not like a kid. Cloud is very much like a kid. (One of the cool kids ) I wasn't trying to say he wasn't.
I've seen people say Christians need to be reborn. Do you know what that means then?... I mean I grew up Lutheran and I don't remember anything about being reborn.
Interesting, but this was most likely just part of the battle system. I mean can you imagine if they just fell over dead and lied there?
Yep that's a good point and I believe she's right.
I just don't think he meant it literally like that. I think it was just a sweet "She lives in him" thing. I think I should leave it at that though because at this rate it's going to become an LTD debate or I'll end up pissing someone off again...
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| Anastar | Oct 21 2010, 05:38 PM Post #104 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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That's what you get for not answering right away.
Okay, good. And you also admit that kids seem to have a special relationship to Aerith. So that should apply to Cloud, too.
Only certain religions say that, not all of them. And no - I'm not really familiar with that concept. I *think* it means that their spirit needs to be awakened to the truth of God's message or some such thing, but I'm not sure.
Possibly. I just always assumed they were dematerializing into the Lifestream, which means Cloud wouldn't find it unusual.
We disagree, but... we'll leave it there.
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| Hades' Daughter | Oct 22 2010, 06:21 PM Post #105 |
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Cleris Extremist
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Anastar:
Quex:
I would have to say that I agree with Anastar. I don't mean to turn this into a debate but I also just wanted to add that in the interview where Nomura talked about Aerith's consciousness living on inside Cloud, Nomura was also talking about the theme of 'life' and he had specifically said that it wasn't about memories...so I don't think it's just one of those things where he's saying that she lives on in his heart(AKA he's holding her memories dear to his heart). There is a difference between the two and I'm pretty positive that Nomura was talking about her soul living on in Cloud. He's able to hear her voice, see her, etc. MoTP also mentions that when someone dies, it's not that they simply cease to exist. Therefore, I think it's more literal than not. You also add in the factor that even two years after her death, Aerith's special bond with Cloud continues so it only makes sense that we're talking about spiritual stuff here. For me, it all adds up. |
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He doesn't look up, but does that mean he's not able to see her when he was able to at other times during the movie?

But I especially loved this one:




) I wasn't trying to say he wasn't.

12:53 AM Jul 11