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"dream Girl"; What huh?
Topic Started: Oct 2 2010, 11:05 PM (2,673 Views)
Quexinos
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I don't want to confuse either of us any farther so I'll just clarify here that I believe the commercial speaks the truth about there being a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith just as it speaks the truth about there being hatred involved with Sephiroth. I think you can see where I stand. If you don't mind me asking, could you clarify what about the commercial, to you, was true and what wasn't? I'm just curious in knowing.

No matter what definitions you pull out of a dictionary, the simple fact is that Sephiroth did NOT always hate Cloud. So "A hate that always was" is false. Yes there is hate between them but TBH I never felt Seph hated Cloud nearly on the same level as Cloud hated Seph. I'm not even sure Seph hated Cloud at all. He seemed rather indifferent to him.

As for a love that could never be. To me it was more that feelings were there, but didn't have a chance to grow into them actually becoming lovers. Thus this great love that COULD have existed, never got to where it could be so therefore "A love that could never be."

I don't doubt that Cloud had some romantic feelings for Aerith, and to say Aerith didn't love Cloud would be utterly redonkulous so there's no way I'd say that.

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I just assumed two people who have love between them were called lovers.

Not necessarily. Two people could have feelings for each other, but not have spoken of said feelings. They wouldn't be called "lovers" until they confirm it with one another.
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Jon Snow
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Quexinos
Oct 10 2010, 07:36 PM
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I don't want to confuse either of us any farther so I'll just clarify here that I believe the commercial speaks the truth about there being a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith just as it speaks the truth about there being hatred involved with Sephiroth. I think you can see where I stand. If you don't mind me asking, could you clarify what about the commercial, to you, was true and what wasn't? I'm just curious in knowing.

No matter what definitions you pull out of a dictionary, the simple fact is that Sephiroth did NOT always hate Cloud. So "A hate that always was" is false. Yes there is hate between them but TBH I never felt Seph hated Cloud nearly on the same level as Cloud hated Seph. I'm not even sure Seph hated Cloud at all. He seemed rather indifferent to him.

Wait--who says it has to be Sephiroth's hate? :unsure: Can't it be Cloud's hatred towards Sephiroth?

That goes with Nomura's quote;
"FFVII's main character, who even I have a strong attachment to. The single wing that appears when he uses the power of darkness is a homage to his eternal rival, Sephiroth. I think that the scene in the ending with Aerith, which is possible because it is parallel, is one answer." (Nomura)

I mean, that commercial also says "friendship" when Tifa's on screen, does that mean the narrator was talking about Tifa's friendship towards Cloud? No. The commercial is focusing on the hero's role and what he feels and what he thought.


Friendship: to Tifa and Co.
Love: Cloud and Aerith's love that was torn apart
Hatred: Cloud's hate for Sephiroth
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Hades' Daughter
Cleris Extremist
Quex:
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No matter what definitions you pull out of a dictionary, the simple fact is that Sephiroth did NOT always hate Cloud. So "A hate that always was" is false.


I don't necessarily disagree but something to consider too is that perhaps the phrase is being looked at too literally. For example, the phrase "a love that could never be" isn't to be taken literally. It's not saying Cloud and Aerith's love can't be. Perhaps the phrase "a hatred that always was" shouldn't be taken as literal as it sounds. Sephiroth's hatred for Cloud and the world has existed for a long time. Perhaps it's merely referring to that. It's almost the same as Nomura calling Cloud and Sephiroth "eternal rivals".

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I'm not even sure Seph hated Cloud at all. He seemed rather indifferent to him.


I don't think the commercial was just referring to Sephiroth's hatred for Cloud. I think it was talking about his hatred for everything in general. Also, for Sephiroth to keep coming back over and over again to torture Cloud, I'm sure there must have been quite a bit of hatred involved.

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Not necessarily. Two people could have feelings for each other, but not have spoken of said feelings. They wouldn't be called "lovers" until they confirm it with one another.


The word "Lovers" is just referring to two people who are in love. It doesn't matter if they've talked about it or not.

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As for a love that could never be. To me it was more that feelings were there, but didn't have a chance to grow into them actually becoming lovers.


The commercial is simply saying they were in love and some tragedy separated them, that's all. It's not saying that it would be impossible for them to eventually find a way around the obstacle/tragedy separating them. Am I making sense? If you're saying that the feelings were there then it's essentially the same thing as what I'm saying.

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Thus this great love that COULD have existed, never got to where it could be so therefore "A love that could never be."


So, are you saying that the Cloud/Aerith portion of the commercial is speaking truth or fibbing then? Maybe I've misunderstood but I'm not sure you answered that question for me. And, again, I'm not sure I can agree with your interpretation of the commercial's usage of the phrase "a love that could never be".
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Quexinos
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Can't it be Cloud's hatred towards Sephiroth?

Cloud didn't always hate Sephiroth either.

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I don't necessarily disagree but something to consider too is that perhaps the phrase is being looked at too literally. For example, the phrase "a love that could never be" isn't to be taken literally. It's not saying Cloud and Aerith's love can't be. Perhaps the phrase "a hatred that always was" shouldn't be taken as literal as it sounds. Sephiroth's hatred for Cloud and the world has existed for a long time.Okay, you said they were in love and they were separated and hence the quote, right? 

Okay but before you said I was using the phrase wrong which implied to me that there was only one usages of the phrase. You kinda started saying it isn't literal now... so ... I'm not quite sure why you're saying that.

Do you disagree with what Anastar was told then?

I say that "a love that could never be" means that love exists between two people who cannot continue their relationship due to circumstances in their lives, even though they love one another. Even though these two people are forced by circumstances to discontinue their relationship, they are in love with one another.

She was told this then

I do believe that you win the dispute! If I am not mistaken, the phrase comes from Shakesphere's "Romeo and Juliet," referring to their impossible relationship that can not go any further because of their family differences.

Thus this would imply that Cloud's relationship with Aerith can go no further, because she is dead, right? This is why it is "A love that cannot be" because their relationship can go no further. You said you can argue that. But if you're arguing against that, that would mean the commercial lied. That in fact, their love is not "A love that can never be" but it's in fact, the opposite. If it is the opposite, then the commercial told a lie. A possible half truth, but none the less the second half of that phrase is a lie. Right?

This is why I'd either take all of the commercial or none of it. I prefer to take none of it. It's just so much easier than way and I go the same route with magazines. Unless it's an actual interview, you'll never see me use magazines in a debate, and that goes for those Dengaki profiles. I used to use them because I thought they were from the creators but once I found out this wasn't true, I stopped doing that.

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The commercial is simply saying they were in love and some tragedy separated them, that's all. It's not saying that it would be impossible for them to eventually find a way around the obstacle/tragedy separating them. Am I making sense? If you're saying that the feelings were there then it's essentially the same thing as what I'm saying.

But according to what Anastar posted, it means their love can go no further. Do you disagree with what she was told or are you saying the commercial did in fact lie?... because I don't want to assume you guys are on the same wavelength here unless you tell me.

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The word "Lovers" is just referring to two people who are in love. It doesn't matter if they've talked about it or not.

Well true but generally if you say two people are "lovers" this means they're in a relationship. Not always though I guess.

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So, are you saying that the Cloud/Aerith portion of the commercial is speaking truth or fibbing then? Maybe I've misunderstood but I'm not sure you answered that question for me. And, again, I'm not sure I can agree with your interpretation of the commercial's usage of the phrase "a love that could never be".

Well with Anastar's correction on what the phrase actually means, I would say it's a lie. Unless the phrase can mean more than one thing but I'm not sure if that's what you meant or not. You previously told me I was using the phrase wrong so I was under the impression you only thought it had one meaning, but maybe I was a bit off on that. :unsure:
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Anastar
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Quexinos
Oct 10 2010, 11:13 PM
I worded this wrong.  The phrase means it can't happen is what I meant.

The point I was making is that the phrase does NOT mean that the love never existed. In fact, it means that the two ARE in love at the time that the tragedy occurs when they are torn apart.

Quexinos
 
Thus this would imply that Cloud's relationship with Aerith can go no further, because she is dead, right? This is why it is "A love that cannot be" because their relationship can go no further.

That's true in the real world where people cannot interact with spirits. But is that also true when Cloud is still able to talk and be with Aerith's spirit in the fantasy world they live in? We also know they are able to touch because that was shown in AC/ACC:

Posted Image

So what's true in the real world isn't necessarily true in the fantasy world of FFVII. Also remember what Nomura said in Distance:

The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview

To me, that makes it pretty clear that their relationship can continue.
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Jon Snow
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HD
 
Sephiroth's hatred for Cloud and the world has existed for a long time. Perhaps it's merely referring to that. It's almost the same as Nomura calling Cloud and Sephiroth "eternal rivals".

Yes, exactly, HD.

Quexinos
 
Cloud didn't always hate Sephiroth either.

Not according to Nomura.

FFVII's main character, who even I have a strong attachment to. The single wing that appears when he uses the power of darkness is a homage to his eternal rival, Sephiroth. I think that the scene in the ending with Aerith, which is possible because it is parallel, is one answer." (Nomura)

Quexinos
 
But according to what Anastar posted, it means their love can go no further. Do you disagree with what she was told or are you saying the commercial did in fact lie?... because I don't want to assume you guys are on the same wavelength here unless you tell me.

Here's a fine example of what I believe HD is saying. Take Romeo and Juliet, they were in love but they were separated by families and then death. But Romeo and Juliet, wherever they are/or would be would still be in love. Something in the living world prevented them from being together physically in the living world, but their love is still there.



I think I get what Quexinos is trying to say. She's trying to say the commercial is false when stating that Cloud and Aerith's love can never be because we're trying to say that Cloud can still love Aerith even after her death. When, that doesn't make the commercial false. It just means something from the living world prevented them from being with each other... in the living world.

But there could still be another outlet for their love. Just as death was the way for Romeo and Juliet to be together for eternity, Cloud and Aerith can find their own way of remaining in love even after death.

And like Aly said, from the looks of everything, Cloud seems to have found his way of loving Aerith even after 4 years of her being gone.

Also, you have to watch the other commercials that say that VII is a story of;

"...amour impossible" -French (shows Cloud reaching up for Aerith, then shows her death scene) French Commercial

"A bitter war of love and hate" -European (shows the same thing as the French commercial)
European Commercial


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Anastar
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Here's a fine example of what I believe HD is saying. Take Romeo and Juliet, they were in love but they were separated by families and then death. But Romeo and Juliet, wherever they are/or would be would still be in love. Something in the living world prevented them from being together physically in the living world, but their love is still there.

That's what I'm trying to say, too. The quote means that they can't be together in the living world, but their love continues. In fact, you can also apply that to Romeo and Juliet IF you believe in the hereafter. In different stories/movies/poems/etc., characters will sometimes talk about being re-united in heaven. I've heard people say similar things in real life.

Two people who love one another may be separated by fate in the real and living world, but many people believe that loved ones can be re-united in heaven. In that sense, Romeo and Juliet actually killed themselves so that they *could* be together - for eternity.

That's similar to how Clerith people see Cloud and Aerith's relationship, although it's a bit different since Cloud can see and interact with Aerith while he's still alive and she's a spirit. But a relationship like that was shown in the movie "Ghost", so we're not the only ones with that idea. :P

Forty-Six
 
I think I get what Quexinos is trying to say. She's trying to say the commercial is false when stating that Cloud and Aerith's love can never be because we're trying to say that Cloud can still love Aerith even after her death. When, that doesn't make the commercial false. It just means something from the living world prevented them from being with each other... in the living world.

I understood Quex to be saying that "a love that can never be" means that love cannot exist between Cloud and Aerith because they've been separated. I've heard other Cloti's say that the phrase means that Cloud could never fall in love with Aerith because she died before he fell in love with her - and now that she's dead, he can never fall in love with her.

So in the first place, I wanted to show that the phrase DOES mean that two people are in love. As for people being able to continue their love after being separated, I think they obviously can. There's couples where one partner is in the Army and goes to Afghanistan, for example - yet their love continues despite their separation. There's also couples where one partner dies and the living partner remains devoted to the one who died. They don't always get re-married.

So it really depends on each individual's values and preferences and concept of the hereafter. Romeo and Juliet believed they would be together after death, so their love would survive and they would be re-united in heaven. They were separated in the living world, but that doesn't mean that their love died.

If the player interpreted Cloud and Aerith to in love, then it's possible in the fantasy world of FFVII for that relationship to continue because Cloud is able to speak, see, touch, and interact with her spirit. Nomura also said that Cloud's feelings for Aerith continue to this day:

Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

So if you interpreted Cloud's feelings for Aerith to be love, then his love for her continues. Since Nomura didn't specify what feelings Cloud has for Aerith, he made that interpretation totally possible.
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Jon Snow
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Anastar
 
Two people who love one another may be separated by fate in the real and living world, but many  people believe that loved ones can be re-united in heaven. In that sense, Romeo and Juliet actually killed themselves so that they *could* be together - for eternity.

That's similar to how Clerith people see Cloud and Aerith's relationship, although it's a bit different since Cloud can see and interact with Aerith while he's still alive and she's a spirit. But a relationship like that was shown in the movie "Ghost", so we're not the only ones with that idea.

Yes, exactly what I was saying. For Romeo and Juliet the way there were going to be together for eternity was through death. For Cloud and Aerith, they're going to be together because of other reasons.

Anastar
 
I understood Quex to be saying that "a love that can never be" means that love cannot exist between Cloud and Aerith because they've been separated. I've heard other Cloti's say that the phrase means that Cloud could never fall in love with Aerith because she died before he fell in love with her - and now that she's dead, he can never fall in love with her.

Honestly, that's what I thought she was meaning, too. But I was hoping that she wasn't saying such an argument as that.

Anastar
 

So it really depends on each individual's values and preferences and concept of the hereafter. Romeo and Juliet believed they would be together after death, so their love would survive and they would be re-united in heaven. They were separated in the living world, but that doesn't mean that their love died.

Yes, exactly.

Anastar
 
If the player interpreted Cloud and Aerith to in love, then it's possible in the fantasy world of FFVII for that relationship to continue because Cloud is able to speak, see, touch, and interact with her spirit. Nomura also said that Cloud's feelings for Aerith continue to this day:

Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview; Dengeki Playstation 2007

So if you interpreted Cloud's feelings for Aerith to be love, then his love for her continues. Since Nomura didn't specify what feelings Cloud has for Aerith, he made that interpretation totally possible.


I agree completely.
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Quexinos
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I understood Quex to be saying that "a love that can never be" means that love cannot exist between Cloud and Aerith because they've been separated.

Then I screwed up, I was trying to say that their relationship can go no further. That doesn't mean they don't still love each other, right? Just that their actual relationship is at a halt.

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I've heard other Cloti's say that the phrase means that Cloud could never fall in love with Aerith because she died before he fell in love with her - and now that she's dead, he can never fall in love with her.

I thought this originally, but after you showed me the Romeo and Juliet thing, I changed my mind. The commercial is saying their relationship can go no further. But it doesn't mean they don't still love each other.

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To me, that makes it pretty clear that their relationship can continue.

That would mean the commercial lied. If the phrase means their relationship can't continue, but their relationship DOES continue... doesn't that mean the commercial lied?

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Two people who love one another may be separated by fate in the real and living world, but many  people believe that loved ones can be re-united in heaven. In that sense, Romeo and Juliet actually killed themselves so that they *could* be together - for eternity.

'cept that won't work On me, I don't believe in heaven :P
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Jon Snow
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Quexinos
Oct 11 2010, 06:04 PM

That would mean the commercial lied.  If the phrase means their relationship can't continue, but their relationship DOES continue... doesn't that mean the commercial lied?

No, no, it doesn't.

It just means something from the living world prevented them from being with each other... in the living world.

But there could still be another outlet for their love to continue. Just as death was the way for Romeo and Juliet to be together for eternity, Cloud and Aerith have their own ways of remaining in love even after death.

For example, Aly showed that Aerith and Cloud can touch and communicate physically. Nomura has stated time and time again that Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart, that he could never forget her, and that he has an undying feeling for her. This is an alternate universe where magic exists. Anything is possible for them.

I mean, look at Tidus and Yuna. For a while they were an impossible love, in yet their love lasted two whole years. They were ripped apart but Yuna still carried her love for him and she even searched for him, without any real indication that he could possibly be back.

Cloud and Aerith's love was stopped in the physical world, meaning they can't exactly get married(like their future held for them) and they can't have children. But that doesn't rid of their love for each other and it definitely doesn't mean since Cloud cannot continue a living relationship with Aerith that he has to be with someone else.

All that commercial meant was that their love amongst the living was prevented because of her death. However, Cloud can still continue to only love Aerith and he can continue to meet her in the flower field, his promised land, and if they want, Aerith can possibly even come to him in a physical manifestation so Cloud can embrace her in any which way he wants to.

So yes, when in comparison to living relationships, Cloud and Aerith cannot continue their love in that way, but they have another outlet for their communications of love, their two person bond, their promised land, the field they meet in, and even the chance of Aerith becoming physical, if not for just a little while.

I'm sure, as a man in love, Cloud wouldn't care how he was able to be with her as long as he could continue to be with her.

As Aly pointed out, there are many couples in the living world that continue to love the one they lost, they even stay single, too.

Here, look at Vincent, he was torn from Lucrecia, right? Their love was stopped, but does that mean Vincent doesn't love her anymore? Does it mean that Vincent can't still continue that love even though she's gone?
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Quexinos
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Here, look at Vincent, he was torn from Lucrecia, right? Their love was stopped, but does that mean Vincent doesn't love her anymore? Does it mean that Vincent can't still continue that love even though she's gone?

I thought I cleared this up. I didn't say their LOVE couldn't go on, I said their RELATIONSHIP can't.

At any rate, just because you WANT the phrase to only apply to the living world, doesn't mean it does. Romeo and Juliet could be dead and buried and that's it for all you know. I don't know what happens after we die and I don't pretend to know, but if it means their RELATIONSHIP (not their LOVE) cannot continue, then that's that. It's "A love that could never be" not "A love that cold never be, but only in the loving world, they can continue this some other way."
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Jon Snow
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Quexinos
Oct 11 2010, 06:59 PM
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Here, look at Vincent, he was torn from Lucrecia, right? Their love was stopped, but does that mean Vincent doesn't love her anymore? Does it mean that Vincent can't still continue that love even though she's gone?

I thought I cleared this up. I didn't say their LOVE couldn't go on, I said their RELATIONSHIP can't.

At any rate, just because you WANT the phrase to only apply to the living world, doesn't mean it does. Romeo and Juliet could be dead and buried and that's it for all you know. I don't know what happens after we die and I don't pretend to know, but if it means their RELATIONSHIP (not their LOVE) cannot continue, then that's that. It's "A love that could never be" not "A love that cold never be, but only in the loving world, they can continue this some other way."

Hmm, maybe you missed that this is a magical fantasy world?

The magical world they live in has a HUGE impact on whether or not their love can continue. But I'm guessing you missed this part;

Look at Tidus and Yuna. For a while they were an impossible love, in yet their love lasted two whole years. They were ripped apart but Yuna still carried her love for him and she even searched for him, without any real indication that he could possibly be back.

Cloud and Aerith's love was stopped in the physical world, meaning they can't exactly get married(like their future held for them) and they can't have children.

But that doesn't rid of their love for each other and it definitely doesn't mean since Cloud cannot continue a living relationship with Aerith that he has to be with someone else or that their continued love, be it spiritual or physical, cannot carry on.

All that commercial meant was that their love amongst the living was prevented because of her death. However, Cloud can still continue to only love Aerith and he can continue to meet her in the flower field, his promised land, and if they want, Aerith can possibly even come to him in a physical manifestation so Cloud can embrace her in any which way he wants to.

So yes, when in comparison to LIVING relationships, Cloud and Aerith cannot continue their love in that way.

But they have another outlet for their communications of love, their two person bond, their promised land, the field they meet in, and even the chance of Aerith becoming physical, if not for just a little while. THIS is why their love can survive even after death... and this is why their love can still be termed "a love that could never be"--because their love was stopped in the sense of a relationship amongst the living, however, their love can continue through the many ways we've all brought up before.


Again, look at Vincent, he was torn from Lucrecia, right? Their love was stopped, but does that mean Vincent doesn't love her anymore? Does it mean that Vincent can't still continue that love even though she's gone?

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Quexinos
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You know what, Cali, I'm done with you. I've repeated myself enough times now and I'm not going to repeat myself again. If you honestly can't see that I'm not saying their LOVE cannot continue even after I've said it at least twice, then it's obvious that there's no point in talking with you.
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Jon Snow
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Whoa, Quexinos, chillax. I don't know what the deal is, man. :/

I know you know they loved each other, but correct me if I'm wrong on this, but aren't you saying that because the commercial says they're "a love that could never be" it means their relationship can't continue, isn't that what you're saying? :unsure:

All, I'm saying is that Cloud and Aerith have a way for their love, as in relationship dealing with their love for each other, to continue in other ways other than amongst the living. Yes, they might not be able to "be together" in the living world, hence the "love that could never be" line, but their love and or relationship can exist in other ways.

That's all I'm saying, man. That's all. :unsure:

Sorry if I misunderstood or somethin' but I'm just trying to understand a few things, man.
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Quexinos
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And my point still stands. If their relationship can continue, the commercial lied. As much as you want the phrase to just be "a love that cannot be among the living, but can ttly exist in other ways." doesn't mean it means that.

Can they still love each other? Sure
Can they have a relationship? No.

Because then it is no longer a love that cannot be. Either the relationship can be or it can't. Not something in the middle. Not "Well it can exist THIS way." because then it's existing. You can't have it both ways just because you want it both ways
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