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Ifalna; What Hojo says
Topic Started: Aug 10 2010, 05:25 PM (666 Views)
Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Edit: Sorry, this is about Ifalna. I wrote Elmyra by mistake. :blush:

I found this quote from Hojo on Disk One very interesting:

President Shinra "Hojo. How's the girl?"

(Hojo turns his head.)

Hojo "As a specimen, she is inferior to her mother. I'm still in the
process of comparing her to her mother, Ifalna, but for now the difference
is 18%."

President Shinra "How long will the research take?"

Hojo "Probably 120 years. It's probably impossible to finish in our
lifetime. Or in the lifetime of the specimen too, for that matter."

(Hojo turns away from the table.)

Hojo "That's why we're thinking of breeding her. Then we could create
one that would withstand our research for a long time."

President Shinra "What about the Promised Land? Won't it hinder our plans?"

Hojo "That's what I need to plan. The mother is strong... and yet has her weaknesses."

(We are looking down from the duct again.)

President Shinra "That concludes our meeting."


I think what Hojo says here is very interesting for several reasons. In the first place, he talks as if Ifalna is *still* strong. That would imply that Elmyra continues to have some effect on Shinra's plans. Yet, we don't *see* Ifalna taking any action during the actual game.

On the other hand, we know that Aerith continues to take action, both during FFVII after she's freed from Sephiroth's control and during AC/ACC. If Aerith is able to direct the Lifestream toward Meteor, cast Fury Brand on Cloud during the Bahamut hand reach scene, and cast Great Gospel during AC/ACC, then we know she still has power.

So why didn't we see any action from Ifalna during the game? Especially when Hojo says that Ifalna is more powerful than Aerith?

Also, President Shinra asks if the Promised Land will hinder Shinra's plans. That implies that the Promised Land is actually the consciousness of the Cetra which can take action against them. Something we should all know, but still... I think it's interesting.
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Beatrix
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Elmyra ? Aerith's biological mother was Ifalna, not Elmyra.

As for "the mother is strong" bit... I wonder if it is an exact translation or a mistake. Because Hojo could be comparing Aerith to her mother here... maybe talking about Aerith's mother back when she was alive. So instead of "the mother is strong"... maybe the exact translation was "the mother WAS strong".
Or maybe... Ifalna was supposed to have a bigger role in the game but the idea was rejected and they forgot to fix Hojo's lines.
This is kinda confusing indeed.
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Myko
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Hopeless Romantic
I thought he was talking about Ifalna, not Elmyra? It makes no sense if he was talking about Elmyra. I mean, she's not a Cetra like Ifalna, she's human. =/
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
I'm sorry... momentary brain lapse. :blush: I mean Ifalna, not Elmyra.

At any rate, I think it's interesting that Hojo refers to Ifalna in the present tense, as if he *knows* she's still strong. Yet, we see her take no action during the game itself. We also see evidence in the Temple of Ancients that the consciousness of the Cetra is still active, and there's a place in CoLW where Aerith asks other Cetra to help her with lessening the sadness of Geostigma victims.

So the consciousness of Cetra remains active. Also, President Shinra seems to imply that when he talks about the Promised Land hindering their plans. Again, that would indicate that the consciousness of the Cetra is active.

I just think it's interesting.
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Jon Snow
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Whoa, I didn't even notice the difference, Aly.
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Myko
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Hopeless Romantic
Okay. XD As long as you didn't mean Elmyra...

Yes, I think Ifalna's presence is still very strong, since her daughter's off running around through a very dangerous world. Aerith even says that the church was the only place she heard her mom's voice. =3

I be Hojo has a lot of respect and admiration for Ifalna because she's full Cetra, and he seems so obsessed with them. So naturally he'd refer to her in the present tense much like Aerith would.
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Shiva
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I wonder why Aerith didn't see her mom during Case of Lifestream: White? :unsure:
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Rini Mazaki
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Does that scene take place before Cloud and company goes to Costa Del Sol? Because if it is, then Hojo has every reason to call Ifalna in present tense. I believe he still thought Ifalna was still alive because Aeris tells him that her mother died at Costa Del Sol.

Hojo
"Say, aren't you the 'Ancient?'"

Aerith
"I'm Aerith. The least you can do is remember my name."
"I want you to tell me something, Professor Hojo....."
"I know I'm an Ancient. My mother told me."

Hojo
"Your mother? Oh, you mean Ifalna. How is she?"

Aerith
"You didn't know? She died."

(He looks away)

Hojo
"......I see."


So, I think he still believe Ifalna is still alive until Aeris tells him the news, so that translation isn't wrong. I think.
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Myko
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Hopeless Romantic
Oh! I can't believe I forgot about that part! You're completely right, Rini, Hojo didn't know until Aerith told him. D:
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Rini Mazaki
Aug 12 2010, 03:13 PM
So, I think he still believe Ifalna is still alive until Aeris tells him the news, so that translation isn't wrong. I think.

Good observation, Rini! Yes, I'd forgotten she tells Hojo that in Costa del Sol. But I didn't think it was a mistranslation - I was wondering if Hojo had some sort of evidence that Ifalna was still alive, like demonstrations of her power or something. You're right, though - it could be as simple as not knowing that she had died. Aerith doesn't tell Hojo that until later.

Shiva
 
I wonder why Aerith didn't see her mom during Case of Lifestream: White?

I think that's a good question, Shiva. I also have to wonder why we didn't hear or see anything of Ifalna in FFVII or in AC/ACC. Why the "random" Cetra instead of Aerith's mother?
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Alantie
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Dreams the world far away
I've always found it interesting to ponder on Ifalna compared to Aerith. XD I'm glad to see this thread!

Quote:
 
Hojo "As a specimen, she is inferior to her mother. I'm still in the
process of comparing her to her mother, Ifalna, but for now the difference
is 18%."


I've always found this interesting. Aerith is not a full blooded Cetra, yet she's the one who does so much, and yet here we have Hojo saying she's inferior, pretty much dismissing her in favor of her mother. In some ways I connect this to Cloud because Hojo also declares him a failed experiment. so ironically, both Cloud and Aerith are considered to be 'inferior', yet they're the ones who save everyone. ^^

Quote:
 
Hojo "That's what I need to plan. The mother is strong... and yet has her weaknesses."


Obviously every human has their weaknesses, but this makes me wonder what exactly he's talking about here. What weaknesses did Ifalna have? Were those weaknesses perhaps the reason she was not able to do the things her daughter did? There's not enough known about Ifalna to know her personality- perhaps she did not have the same strength that Aerith did in spirit.

I've always wondered if there was more to the abscene of Ifalna's presence in places where you would think she should be than we've really realized. Aerith mentions being able to hear her mother's voice when she was young, which indicates that Ifalna had the strength of will to keep from merging with the Lifestream during Aerith's youth. But then- when Aerith dies, there's no mention of Ifalna anywhere. You would think her mother would be there to guide her and help her fight, but she's not. So where is she? Did she lack the strength of will to not merge before Aerith's death?
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Good points, Alantie! :huggle:

Alantie
 
I've always found this interesting. Aerith is not a full blooded Cetra, yet she's the one who does so much, and yet here we have Hojo saying she's inferior, pretty much dismissing her in favor of her mother. In some ways I connect this to Cloud because Hojo also declares him a failed experiment. so ironically, both Cloud and Aerith are considered to be 'inferior', yet they're the ones who save everyone. ^^

I can see where Aerith would be "inferior" to Ifalna in terms of her Cetra powers. At the same time, we see that Aerith is fully capable of utilizing her Cetra powers when needed.

I've often wondered why Ifalna had possession of Holy. Was Holy passed down to the most powerful Cetra? Did Ifalna come into possession of it due to her power as a Cetra, while Aerith came into possession of it just because she was the last Cetra? :unsure:

Aerith may have been inferior to Ifalna, but we don't know that Ifalna ever had *reason* to use her Cetra powers, at least not to the extent that Aerith did (summoning Holy and the Lifestream, for example). Since Ifalna had possession of Holy, though, I would think that she had the power to summon it.

Only a few Cetra were known to be present at the Temple of Ancients. They were there in spirit to guard the black materia. Were certain Cetra chosen to guard the black materia due to their power as Cetra? Or were all Cetra spirits able to "visit" the Temple?

Also, were there other Cetra alive while Ifalna was young, but those Cetra died before Ifalna met Gast?

Alantie
 
Quote:
 
Hojo "That's what I need to plan. The mother is strong... and yet has her weaknesses."

Obviously every human has their weaknesses, but this makes me wonder what exactly he's talking about here. What weaknesses did Ifalna have? Were those weaknesses perhaps the reason she was not able to do the things her daughter did? There's not enough known about Ifalna to know her personality- perhaps she did not have the same strength that Aerith did in spirit.

Remember that Hojo did experiments on Ifalna and Aerith to measure their Cetra powers. We don't know how reliable those experiments were, but they apparently showed that Ifalna was more powerful in terms of Cetra ability. As I said above, too, I really doubt that Ifalna would have been given possession of Holy if she were unable to summon it - unless she was the last Cetra alive at the time it got handed down.

It also makes sense that Aerith would be less powerful in terms of Cetra abilities simply because she is only half Cetra. At the same time, she was also very young when Hojo did his experiments, so it's possible that she scored lower on his tests simply because she was so young.

Alantie
 
I've always wondered if there was more to the abscene of Ifalna's presence in places where you would think she should be than we've really realized. Aerith mentions being able to hear her mother's voice when she was young, which indicates that Ifalna had the strength of will to keep from merging with the Lifestream during Aerith's youth. But then- when Aerith dies, there's no mention of Ifalna anywhere. You would think her mother would be there to guide her and help her fight, but she's not. So where is she? Did she lack the strength of will to not merge before Aerith's death?

I think you have to remember, though, that the Cetra *want* to go to the Promised Land. To me, that means that they *want* to merge with the Planet. Ifalna may have wanted to merge with the Planet because she wanted to arrive in the Promised Land. She may have waited til she thought Aerith was old enough to manage on her own.

At the same time, there are Cetra at the Temple of Ancients who speak to Aerith and they've been there for 100's of years. Have those Cetra merged with the Planet or not? Is Aerith able to talk with them even though they've already merged with the Planet?

Remember, too, that Dyne asks Aerith in Maiden of the Planet whether or not he will be able to greet Marlene once she dies and becomes part of the Lifestream. Aerith says yes:

Dyne "When Marlene's reaches the end of her lifespan and comes here, will I be able to come out and greet her as part of the Planet...?"

Aerith looked up at Dyne's face and nodded smiling.


I would assume that Dyne would have merged the Planet by that time, yet Aerith says he will still be able to greet Marlene in spirit form. Eleanor's spirit also greeted Dyne after he'd lost his guilt.
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Alantie
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Aly
 
I can see where Aerith would be "inferior" to Ifalna in terms of her Cetra powers. At the same time, we see that Aerith is fully capable of utilizing her Cetra powers when needed.


Well, I guess the part of the problem is that we aren't shown what kind of power Ifalna has, so we're left to speculate. She certainly has more wisdom of the Cetra than her daughter, but does she have the ability and strength of will to back it up? Aerith is capable of incredible feats, so if she's inferior, what kind of strength would Ifalna have? Or, I'm wondering if Hojo was refering to genetics alone. In terms of genetics, Aerith would be inferior since she's only half Cetra, wheras Ifalna was a full blooded Cetra. I was always of the understanding that while being only part Cetra did hinder her a little, it was her strength of will that made up for that and allowed her to be a match for Sephiroth.

Aly
 
I've often wondered why Ifalna had possession of Holy. Was Holy passed down to the most powerful Cetra? Did Ifalna come into possession of it due to her power as a Cetra, while Aerith came into possession of it just because she was the last Cetra?


I've thought about this a lot too. There's a few possibilities, one being that Holy was passed down in a family line amongst the Cetra, Holy was possessed by the most powerful Cetra at the time, or that Ifalna simply came into possession of it because she was the last of her people. This is the kind of thing we need more info on. :lmao: Ifalna is such a mystery in a lot of ways, I want more info and background on her. I was hoping that CC would maybe shed some light on her, but it didn't really. : /

Aly
 
Aerith may have been inferior to Ifalna, but we don't know that Ifalna ever had *reason* to use her Cetra powers, at least not to the extent that Aerith did (summoning Holy and the Lifestream, for example). Since Ifalna had possession of Holy, though, I would think that she had the power to summon it.


True, though is summoning Holy only a matter of power? I'm a little fuzzy on the details, it's been awhile, but from what I remember it was a matter of praying to the planet, and being Cetra. Was there anything else mentioned? I'm sure Ifalna could have summoned Holy if she had ever the need to do it, but I guess I'm thinking of what Aerith accomplishes even after she dies in terms of Cetra abilities.

Aly
 
Only a few Cetra were known to be present at the Temple of Ancients. They were there in spirit to guard the black materia. Were certain Cetra chosen to guard the black materia due to their power as Cetra? Or were all Cetra spirits able to "visit" the Temple?

Also, were there other Cetra alive while Ifalna was young, but those Cetra died before Ifalna met Gast?


I guess I've always assumed that the Cetra are able to have their spirits present at the temple due to their strength of will- the ones with stronger wills were better able to be there to protect the black materia while those who weren't quite as strong willed returned more quickly to the Lifestream.

That's always been a little vague actually. I assumed that Ifalna had other Cetra with her for some part of her life, but by the time she met and married Gast, she was the last full blooded one left.

Aly
 
Remember that Hojo did experiments on Ifalna and Aerith to measure their Cetra powers. We don't know how reliable those experiments were, but they apparently showed that Ifalna was more powerful in terms of Cetra ability. As I said above, too, I really doubt that Ifalna would have been given possession of Holy if she were unable to summon it - unless she was the last Cetra alive at the time it got handed down.


Yes, but I think what Hojo was actually measuring was probably more genetic, and didn't have as much to do with the real power either woman possessed- since really, Hojo is a scientist and I suspect he would be examining DNA and not testing their actual powers. Certainly on a genetic scale Ifalna would have been a superior example because her blood would have been purer, while Aerith is only a half blood. It's not the first time Hojo's been wrong about his experiments though, as he was wrong about Cloud, remeber he was very disgruntled when his 'failed' experiment was the one to make it to Sephiroth.

I'm thinking we're talking about a few different things in terms of Cetra power. I don't doubt Ifalna could have summoned Holy if she needed to. But I'm thinking more along the lines of her Great Gospel, and ability to manipulate the lifestream, things like that.

Aly
 
I think you have to remember, though, that the Cetra *want* to go to the Promised Land. To me, that means that they *want* to merge with the Planet. Ifalna may have wanted to merge with the Planet because she wanted to arrive in the Promised Land. She may have waited til she thought Aerith was old enough to manage on her own.

At the same time, there are Cetra at the Temple of Ancients who speak to Aerith and they've been there for 100's of years. Have those Cetra merged with the Planet or not? Is Aerith able to talk with them even though they've already merged with the Planet?


Yes, of course. However, the Cetra are also the guardians of the planet, and I can't imagine that all of them are going to abandon now that they have all died to move on to the Promised Land and let everyone fend for themselves.

The problem is this area gets a little fuzzy on what it means to completely merge with the Lifestream. I was of the impression that once a person merges completely with the Lifestream, they don't retain their sense of self, because they've essentially become one with all the other spirits that have passed on. Cetra might be the exception to this rule, but I'm unsure. Aerith is able to keep herself apart from the Lifestream, as is Sephiroth, and it seems neither has merged. Otherwise, Sephiroth would not be the threat he still is. Yet there are the Cetra in the temple who have kept themselves quite a length of time- I wouldn't say that they've merged, otherwise would they be able to retain that sense of self that they are supposed to lose?

The example of Dyne and Elinor is good, but the problem with that is Aerith's presence is shown to wake up spirits that have been asleep in the Lifestream and return their sense of self to them briefly while she's with them. On their own, I'm not sure that most normal spirits can do that, or even Cetra for that matter. They would certainly meet their loved ones when they join them, because they would be merging and joining into that stream of consiousness, so that makes sense.
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