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Geostigma
Topic Started: May 4 2010, 11:03 PM (2,045 Views)
Quexinos
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WOO HOO!
Okay I only have time to reply to a couple things but I'll get to more a little later on.

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Never said they had a physical body. However, I'm saying that, from what Aerith says about the J cells in Hojo, they appear to be physical to her. Is that only because of Hojo's self image, or are they still viable?

There was also the blood on Dyne that looked physical to her and it wasn't. I'd assume this was the same way.

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After all, she knows that Hojo's physical appearance is nothing but a mental image, so why wouldn't she know if his J cells are nothing but a mental image?

The same way she knew Dyne's blood wasn't real.

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No, it was guilt keeping Dyne from merging with the Planet, since that's what Aerith healed in him. The line you bolded says that Hojo's madness wasn't like what intoxicated Dyne.

Yes, but the guilt lead to his madness. At any rate, those who don't merge with the planet right away seem to not do so due to strong emotion or a strong will. Sephiroth has a strong will, Dyne has strong guilt, Jesse and Biggs have strong sorrow and guilt.

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But Zack is sane. Hojo's not. Zack also had a strong enough will not to be influenced by Jenova's will, which is why he made it into SOLDIER. In fact, that's probably why Zack isn't a part of the Neg Lifestream despite having Jenova cells.

It shouldn't matter, IMO. If Jenova cells are what keeps a person from merging with the planet, then Jenova cells are what keeps a person merging with the planet. And Hojo himself didn't seem to be under the control of Jenova or Sephiroth or anything. He was babbling on about helping his "son" for some time. I don't think the Jenova cells had any effect on his already broken mentality.

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Okay, you know I've read Maiden, but I didn't remember that part of it. Does that mean I didn't read it?

Yes...

OW OW OW OW okay, stop throwing things ,I was kidding :(

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What's confusing me is that Hojo was already dead, but it says here that he dies to support Sephiroth. Wasn't he already dead when Aerith first encountered his spirit? ermm.gif Otherwise, why would his spirit appear in the Lifestream?

I know, rite?
I don't get it either, I'm assuming this time death means his spirit is gone which is what it says.

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You also have to remember that Zack died before FFVII, yet his image is still visible to Aerith. Therefore, his consciousness is still intact. Is this because of his strong will, or is it because of his Jenova cells?

Didn't Aerith kind of "wake him up" if you will? That's kind of what I gathered.

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At any rate, what I take from the passage you quoted is that Hojo's a "sacrifice to Sephiroth" and it says that he "dies to support Sephiroth" a couple of lines later - in other words, Hojo becomes part of the Negative Lifestream.

But yes, the passage you quoted sounds as if Hojo merges with the Lifestream. It seems strange that Aerith would say he'd never merge with the Planet if he does merge with the Planet. The only explanation I can think of is that you don't call it "merging with the Planet" unless your spirit merges with the Positive Lifestream. If Hojo merges with the Negative Lifestream to support Sephiroth, then he's not actually merging with the Planet.

The negative lifestream didn't exist until after FFVII. It's made up of people who died of Geostigma, so it couldn't have been around then. I think Hojo just gave his spirit energy to Sephiroth somehow.

Maybe Aerith thought that because of his madness he would never merge and would just wander around aimlessly and not be at peace or something. :dunno: That's really the only thing I can think of. and I mean Aerith is entitled to be wrong, she probably wasn't expecting him to run off and sacrifice himself for Sephiroth like that.

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If Hojo's consciousness was digitally recorded, then why wouldn't it still exist virtually? But like I say, I do think that's a stretch

Because, and maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I don't understand how a digitally recorded mind can possess a body. Which would mean that he uploaded his spirit somehow... if that's the case, then what is his spirit doing in thelifestream?

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However, that can't be the only reason, since Aerith asks the consciousness of Cetra to help her get rid of the hatred in CoL:White. The consciousness of Cetra were still guarding the black materia in the Temple of Ancients, too. Also, the consciousness of the Cetra directed Aerith to the Forgotten City. So the consciousness of Cetra can last for over 2000 years. It seems the consciousness of Cetra can retain their identity longer than humans, and I doubt it's because they all feel guilty.

I think the only answer here is that they're Cetra and they can do that. That's a perk of being a Cetra :P Anyways, I was talking about just plain ol' humans when I said that.

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Okay, that seems likely. However, the "inundation" is referring to the Lifestream washing over the Planet, isn't it? Isn't that when some people were contaminated by Jenova cells, since the Lifestream was tainted? So did getting contaminated by the stigma and by J cells happen simultaneously, or what?

Possibly not right away, but remember Ruby? It was very shortly afterwards that it happened. I think Sephiroth hit a lot of people in Midgar first, and from there went onto other places of the world.

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Hold on - you're contradicting yourself here. You say that the misery and hatred was caused by Sephiroth's will. That happened after his defeat in FFVII, when he was already dead. Therefore, Sephiroth's will continues to exist after he's dead.

Same with Aerith's will. How else did she get the Lifestream to flood the Planet if she has no will after she's dead? I'd think she'd need to do that with the strength of her will.

Didn't mean to contradict there, let me explain a bit better.

Think of the end of FFVII. It was Sephiroth's will that was stopping Holy from moving, right? But after the team defeated him, despite the fact that he wasn't actually "dead" his will, at least, was stopped momentarily, because Holy began to move. Putting aside whether or not Sephiroth is still around or not, even if he is, the same thing happened at the end of ACC. Cloud defeated Sephiroth, and his will was interrupted which allowed Aerith's holy rain to fall. You know how it shows her praying in the middle of the battle? I always took this to mean that she was praying but nothing was happening just yet because Sephiroth was blocking it. She needed Sephiroth's will to be gone, at least temporarily, in order for the rain to fall.

Pretty much as soon as Sephiroth is defeated, the rain falls so we know that at least momentary, his will has been stopped. Since his will is stopped, if Geostigma could be healed by simply curing the misery that Sephiroth's will was causing, all of Geostigma should have been cured the moment he was defeated, but this was not the case.

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Can I assume that you didn't read Case of Lifestream because you didn't remember that?

Well this is me now :P
But yeah see above. I explained it best I could :D

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Why does she need to if Sephiroth's doing it for her? I would think that his will is compatible with hers.

Besides, being entrapped in a geological stratum must have made it impossible for Jenova to use her magic, to exert her will, or to influence people's minds. Otherwise, the Cetra wouldn't have bothered to put her in there.

Sephiroth is getting revenge for himself and he's using Jenova to do so. I have a feeling that if Jenova could have, she WOULD HAVE stopped him.

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Then why doesn't SE refer to it as Great Gospel version 4 or something like that?

Why didn't Great Gospel heal all of Cloud's wounds and make him invincible? Because it was specifically designed for Geostigma this time around.

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If the Lifestream is still tainted in DoC, then Great Gospel didn't purify the Lifestream.

I don't believe I said it did.

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Was the Lifestream purified in DoC? As I understand it, it wasn't. Souls without Jenova cells were sacrificed in order to purify the Lifestream to the point that Omega would surface
.
They were creating a new lifestream actually. Not purifying the old one.

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However, did that mean the whole Lifestream was untainted by the end of DoC? Hojo said that 500 souls needed to be sacrificed in order for Omega to appear. According to Aerith in MotP, the Lifestream is made up of millions of souls.

Again they were making a new lifestream. One they could control so they could make the sacrifice to Omega.

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All dead bodies in FF VII decompose immediately after death (except for Aerith), so why would you expect to see any?

Not really. Dyne shot up a bunch of people in the Gold Saucer. There were dead bodies everywhere. Shinra was full of dead bodies where Sephiroth had killed them. President Shinra was dead too. Ruby didn't decompose right away. Moogle Girl's brother didn't decompose right away either, she had to carry him away remember. Zack didn't decompose right away. There were dead bodies all over Kalm when Vincent was running around there in DoC. There's a Cemetery in Gongaga, so they must bury something there. Sephiroth's body didn't decompose for... like at all XD

Now in battle, yes, in game battle, they disappear right away, but that doesn't hold true for outside the battle system.

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Then why wouldn't the Neg Lifestream and Sephiroth still exist?

Because Geostigma is still around but dormant, if Sephiroth was still around, they'd be suffering. Or is Geostigma not dormant? I don't remember this stuff >_<

--------------

Moar stuffs :dance:

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My comment wasn't meant to offend, it's just interesting to see these two very knowledgeable people of FFVII debate with one another like that.  It's always fun to read because you always learn something and it just goes to show you that even though someone has read everything there is to know about FFVII, they still might come to a different conclusion.

....

err... okay the wrong thing was in my copy paste XD That above there is something I posted on TLS... but it's good that I posted it because it goes with what you ere saying Anastar. Even if people read everything and see everything they still might come to a different conclusion. I do however think that there are things that are set in stone more so than others. I mean you wouldn't argue that Yuffie doesn't love Materia right? but yeah... here's the RIGHT thing I meant to c/p:

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I didn't remember the Ultimania or Timeline saying that, but I've read them both several times. There's a lot of info and detail on the Compilation. Some people have better memories than others. Some people remember different details. Did you get 100% on every test you took? If not, then you didn't remember every detail of everything that you read.

I can understand about not remembering stuff. I mean as you said there's a LOT of stuff out there. It's easy to forget or get ideas confused. That's why we have these consolations. :lol:

My point was if someone says something that contradicts something the Ultimania or whathaveyou has said, I'm just going to assume they haven't seen or read it. I mean if I said, "Aerith didn't speak to Zack in the lifestream until right before ACC."

You'd probably think I haven't read Maiden, but maybe I did read it and just forgot. Granted that's a huge thing to forget but you see where I'm coming from right?

Now about the Negative Lifestream having Jenova cells:
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You're assuming that Jenova cells in dead people are no longer viable, and that's a point I've been trying to make. I think Jenova cells *are* still viable in dead people. Why are you arguing that Aerith's Great Gospel destroyed the Jenova cells in the Negative Lifestream if you think that the Jenova cells in dead people are also dead?

Because in Case of Yuffie, Yuffie and Yuri are in a cave and are sorta attacked by some black liquid.
Shortly afterwards, Yuri gets Geostigma. When I read it, I assumed this liquid was the Negative Lifestream. Basically I figured this:

1. The lifestream was spread out and got Jenova cells all over the place, contaminating areas and people.
2. Sephiroth used his will to create Geostigma.
3. People with Geostimga have their spirit energy tainted due to the stigma and Sephiroth's will, and when they die, their spirits create the Negative Lifestream.
4. Sephiroth sends out the Negative Lifestream to other places (like Wutai) and gets more people sick, and so on.

That flow alright?

As for not viable, Jenova cells effect the body which is organic material. Once they're dead, the Jenova cells can't have an effect on them because they're no longer organic. This is basically what makes sense to me anyway.

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The Jenova cells in the Neg Lifestream wouldn't *have* to be killed if they were already dead. How would Sephiroth be able to use the Jenova cells in the Neg Lifestream to convey his will if the J cells in the Neg Lifestream are dead?


I think there's been some confusion here and it's probably it's my fault. You had asked me what happened to the Jenova cells in Genesis and Seph and Zack and I said, "nothing they're dead." The they was referring to Seph Zack and Genesis and everyone else who died with Jenova cells. After that you kept asking about dead Jenova cells and I thought you were just talking about Jenova cells in the lifestream or something. I should have asked you to clarify sooner because that would have stopped a hell of a lot of confusion.

TBPH, I'm not sure what Cloud and the others did to Jenova's parts. But I'm assuming they killed those parts, and then the cells got into the lifestream, which was then spread around at the end of the game and got everyone sick and stuff.

That's not important here though... see
In case of Yuffie, there's a black liquid that comes out of a cave or whatever:

At the spot where the monster’s fireball had exploded, a liquid was flowing out of it. Inside the dimly lit cave, they couldn’t tell what it was but it didn’t feel like water. Yuffie ran, her whole body shaking. She could sense an evil presence from the liquid.

“Run.”

Yuffie sped up.

Behind them, the liquid that had started to flow out to the surface slowly, suddenly burst out rapidly. It was hitting the walls of the caves and the ceiling too. Soon, it caught up with them and the liquid was falling down over their heads from the ceiling. They sheltered themselves with their hands and kept running. Yuffie screamed as they reached the exit where she had placed a marker so that they wouldn’t get lost.

Their vision adjusted. They were outside of the cave now. It was bright underneath the moonlight. Yuffie turned round to look. The liquid with the horrifying presence had slowed down now but it was flowing out of the cave they had been in. As Yuffie watched, she noticed something. The water was black.


For the longest time I thought that was the Negative Lifestream that they found, and that it must have Jenova cells because Yuri got sick right afterwards. Now if this isn't the Negative lifestream... then what is it? Is it just contaminated water? Where did it come from? Do you know by chance?
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Quexinos
 
Okay I only have time to reply to a couple things but I'll get to more a little later on.

I only have about an hour right now, so I won't get to everything today. I'll get back on anything not covered, though.

Quexinos
 
There was also the blood on Dyne that looked physical to her and it wasn't.  I'd assume this was the same way.

Okay, let me sum it up this way. You're assuming that Jenova cells die when the human body dies. You also said that Jenova is brain dead, and I immediately questioned that, too.

What I'm wondering is this: Jenova couldn't be killed by the Cetra. They had to entrap her in a geological stratum. Jenova's also alien, which means that she won't necessarily be killed by what kills humans. Her cells can also be separated into different bodies, but be brought together to reunite and form a new Jenova, right? If her body cells can be separated but continue living, then you have to wonder whether her brain is still operational even when her head is separated from her body.

Therefore, you also have to wonder whether the cells of Jenova die when the human body containing them dies. Under what conditions do Jenova cells actually die? We can't presume it's the same condition under which humans die. Does the life of Jenova cells even depend on the operation of the human body (heart beat, breath, blood flow, etc.), or do they function on their own as part of Jenova? If Jenova's still alive, do Jenova cells separated from her body continue to survive?

That's what I'm questioning.

Quex
 
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No, it was guilt keeping Dyne from merging with the Planet, since that's what Aerith healed in him. The line you bolded says that Hojo's madness wasn't like what intoxicated Dyne.

Yes, but the guilt lead to his madness. At any rate, those who don't merge with the planet right away seem to not do so due to strong emotion or a strong will. Sephiroth has a strong will, Dyne has strong guilt, Jesse and Biggs have strong sorrow and guilt.

Okay, I agree with that. I thought you were saying that Dyne's madness was the same as Hojo's.

Quex
 
It shouldn't matter, IMO.  If Jenova cells are what keeps a person from merging with the planet, then Jenova cells are what keeps a person merging with the planet.

Agreed.

Quex
 
And Hojo himself didn't seem to be under the control of Jenova or Sephiroth or anything.  He was babbling on about helping his "son" for some time.  I don't think the Jenova cells had any effect on his already broken mentality.

Okay, I wasn't trying to imply that Hojo was made crazy by Jenova. Hojo was bonkers long before that. :lol:

But I looked back at that quote, and we both missed something. That's what we get for not reading MotP. :P Before the part you quoted earlier about Hojo "merging with the Planet", it says this:

Without showing the least bit of guilt, Hojo turned his head in the direction of the Northern Crater in the distance.

"My son- Jenova's ruler is calling. He's asking for more life energy. Hahaha, I shall offer myself. Then he will become one with me, the one who he hated the most and looked down upon. This will be our reunion."

Hojo, who had merged with Jenova was drawn away just like President Shinra that time. Laughing happily with madness, he was sucked towards the bottom of the gravity well. ~MotP


So Hojo didn't merge with the Planet. He sacrificed himself to Sephiroth in order to offer his son more spirit energy.

Quex
 
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You also have to remember that Zack died before FFVII, yet his image is still visible to Aerith. Therefore, his consciousness is still intact. Is this because of his strong will, or is it because of his Jenova cells?

Didn't Aerith kind of "wake him up" if you will? That's kind of what I gathered.

So what if she did? He still didn't have trouble materializing or remembering parts of his life like Jessie's spirit did. Jessie couldn't even remember who she was or who Aerith was at first. Zack didn't have any such trouble. His consciousness is obviously still intact, even in ACC, else he would've had more trouble materializing and remembering detail from his life. The more you merge, the more your consciousness merges with the consciousness of others, so you forget stuff.

Quex
 
The negative lifestream didn't exist until after FFVII.  It's made up of people who died of Geostigma, so it couldn't have been around then.  I think Hojo just gave his spirit energy to Sephiroth somehow.

That's right. We're not post-FFVII at that point. At any rate, what happened to Hojo is clarified in the part I quoted above.

Quex
 
Maybe Aerith thought that because of his madness he would never merge and would just wander around aimlessly and not be at peace or something. That's really the only thing I can think of.  and I mean Aerith is entitled to be wrong, she probably wasn't expecting him to run off and sacrifice himself for Sephiroth like that.

Well, Hojo didn't merge with the Planet. Instead, his spirit energy was absorbed by Sephiroth. It also says that Hojo merges with Jenova:

Hojo, who had merged with Jenova was drawn away just like President Shinra that time. Laughing happily with madness, he was sucked towards the bottom of the gravity well. ~MotP

So, if anything, Hojo's Jenova cells are taken over by Sephiroth *even though Hojo is dead*. Once again, is that evidence that Jenova cells are still viable even in dead bodies?

Quex
 
Because, and maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I don't understand how a digitally recorded mind can possess a body.  Which would mean that he uploaded his spirit somehow... if that's the case, then what is his spirit doing in thelifestream?

I just assumed that was a virtual body. :dunno: But wasn't Hojo's mind uploaded into Weiss?

Quex
 
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Okay, that seems likely. However, the "inundation" is referring to the Lifestream washing over the Planet, isn't it? Isn't that when some people were contaminated by Jenova cells, since the Lifestream was tainted? So did getting contaminated by the stigma and by J cells happen simultaneously, or what?

Possibly not right away, but remember Ruby? It was very shortly afterwards that it happened. I think Sephiroth hit a lot of people in Midgar first, and from there went onto other places of the world.

Yeah, didn't Ruvi get Geostigma? I thought that's what the black liquid was that came out of her mouth. If she did get Geostigma, then catching J cells and getting Geostigma is almost simultaneous:

"Mrs Ruvi!", he shouted nudging harder this time.

A stream of black fluid came out of Ruvi's mouth. Thinking it was a sign of death, I panicked and wiped it away. There was even some flowing out of her hair. I felt sick. Denzel burst out of the house, fear gripping onto him. ~Case of Denzel


BTW, I thought the black liquid coming out of Ruvi's mouth was the same stuff that Yuffie and Yuri found in the cave in CoY. :dunno:

Sorry, but that's all I've got time for right now. Get back to you on the rest of it later.
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Quexinos
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WOO HOO!
OMG

Quexinos
 
The negative lifestream didn't exist until after FFVII.  It's made up of people who died of Geostigma, so it couldn't have been around then.  I think Hojo just gave his spirit energy to Sephiroth somehow.

Anastar
 
So Hojo didn't merge with the Planet. He sacrificed himself to Sephiroth in order to offer his son more spirit energy.


Yay we agree :dance:

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So what if she did? He still didn't have trouble materializing or remembering parts of his life like Jessie's spirit did. Jessie couldn't even remember who she was or who Aerith was at first. Zack didn't have any such trouble. His consciousness is obviously still intact, even in ACC, else he would've had more trouble materializing and remembering detail from his life. The more you merge, the more your consciousness merges with the consciousness of others, so you forget stuff.

I would guess because of his strong will. Besides other people in the lifestream knew who they were. President Shinra, Dyne. Or is that what you were saying?

I think there's a difference between saying "I will not merge with the planet!" and ... simply not merging because of guilt.

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I just assumed that was a virtual body.:dunno: But wasn't Hojo's mind uploaded into Weiss?

I guess maybe I don't get how he did that. What he said was he uploaded his data, his thoughts his inner being... which I assumed to be his spirit.

3 years ago when I was still running about looking for Sephiroth, I took it upon myself to distribute my data, my mind, my knowledge, my inner being across the World Wide Network. And even though my body had died, and the world was left in ruin, I survived in a virtual reality . When the network was restored, the scattered data regrouped and I was reborn. - Hojo

If he uploaded his spirit, his spirit shouldn't be in the Lifestream. The FF Wiki says it's a copy though, but I'm not sure there's anything in the game that says if it is or not. To say he made a copy would be to say he somehow created spirit energy which I don't think is possible. That's not how the lifestream works. The "energy cannot be created or used up" thing that holds true in our world seems to hold true in the FFVII world.

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BTW, I thought the black liquid coming out of Ruvi's mouth was the same stuff that Yuffie and Yuri found in the cave in CoY

Well that's what I'm thinking now, but I used to think it was part of the negative lifestream :lol:

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Sorry, but that's all I've got time for right now. Get back to you on the rest of it later.

That's fine, I want you to read the rest of my post before I respond to anymore since I think a lot of it answers most of your other questions
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Anastar
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Quexinos
 
Yay we agree :dance:

OMG, we should make this into a national holiday or something. :lol:

Quex
 
I would guess because of his strong will.  Besides other people in the lifestream knew who they were.  President Shinra, Dyne.  Or is that what you were saying?

I think there's a difference between saying "I will not merge with the planet!" and ... simply not merging because of guilt.

No, it's not exactly what I was saying, but I agree with you again. Apparently, some people merge more quickly than others, but it doesn't have to be because of guilt or other strong emotions. Strength of will appears to be a factor, perhaps Jenova cells, race (Cetra stick around longer than humans), strong emotions, etc.

Speaking of race being a factor, that might also point to Jenova cells being a factor. After all, Jenova's a different race than humans.

Another interesting thing is the fact that Hojo merged with Sephiroth/Jenova. Did Sephiroth want Hojo's Jenova cells too, or just his spirit energy? Notice also that Hojo "heard" Sephiroth's call and Aerith didn't. That shows that Hojo's Jenova cells were still functioning in the Lifestream.

I wonder if Zack heard Sephy's call?

Quex
 
I guess maybe I don't get how he did that.  What he said was he uploaded his data, his thoughts his inner being... which I assumed to be his spirit. 

3 years ago when I was still running about looking for Sephiroth, I took it upon myself to distribute my data, my mind, my knowledge, my inner being across the World Wide Network. And even though my body had died, and the world was left in ruin, I survived in a virtual reality . When the network was restored, the scattered data regrouped and I was reborn. - Hojo

If he uploaded his spirit, his spirit shouldn't be in the Lifestream.  The FF Wiki says it's a copy though, but I'm not sure there's anything in the game that says if it is or not.  To say he made a copy would be to say he somehow created spirit energy which I don't think is possible.  That's not how the lifestream works.  The "energy cannot be created or used up" thing that holds true in our world seems to hold true in the FFVII world.

Well, you're assuming that "inner being" = spirit. Inner being could also mean thoughts, memories, emotions, or something. Frankly, I don't see how his spirit could be uploaded and still be in the Lifestream, either (OMG - we agree on something else! :o ), so I have to assume that he doesn't mean spirit when he says "inner being".

The only other possibility is that these are digital *copies* which have been uploaded - not the real thing.

Quex
 
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BTW, I thought the black liquid coming out of Ruvi's mouth was the same stuff that Yuffie and Yuri found in the cave in CoY

Well that's what I'm thinking now, but I used to think it was part of the negative lifestream :lol:

Yeah, I can see why you'd think that. Didn't we see black liquid oozing from Geostigma sores on some victim on the street in Edge, too? Thing is, if that's the same stuff that was in the cave in CoY, then why wasn't it oozing from a body? :unsure:

Quex
 
That's fine, I want you to read the rest of my post before I respond to anymore since I think a lot of it answers most of your other questions

I'd already read your whole post when I wrote that. You have a real thing about assuming that someone hasn't read something, haven't you? :P

I still stand by what I said about the Jenova cells being viable in a dead body. I mean, if Jenova's head and body are still alive after being detached from one another (we saw Jenova's body in Hojo's lab and it looked alive), then you have to assume that her cells still function despite being separated from one another. Hojo also heard Sephiroth's call in the Lifestream in MotP, but Aerith didn't. That means that Hojo's J cells were still functioning despite Hojo being dead on a human level. Jenova's an alien. We don't know what constitutes death for her species, nor do we know exactly what her cells are independently capable of.

Another thing you've yet to comment on, but I've said it more than once. If Aerith's Great Gospel kills Jenova cells, then it must be functioning as an attack spell. Since when do Aerith's limit breaks serve any purpose other than healing, protection, or resurrection? Fury Brand lets other party members access their limit breaks, but it's still not an attack spell. None of her limit breaks are. Yet, if Great Gospel is killing Jenova cells, then it has transformed into an attack spell. Seems curious to me.

Quex
 
Didn't mean to contradict there, let me explain a bit better.

Think of the end of FFVII. It was Sephiroth's will that was stopping Holy from moving, right? But after the team defeated him, despite the fact that he wasn't actually "dead" his will, at least, was stopped momentarily, because Holy began to move. Putting aside whether or not Sephiroth is still around or not, even if he is, the same thing happened at the end of ACC. Cloud defeated Sephiroth, and his will was interrupted which allowed Aerith's holy rain to fall. You know how it shows her praying in the middle of the battle? I always took this to mean that she was praying but nothing was happening just yet because Sephiroth was blocking it. She needed Sephiroth's will to be gone, at least temporarily, in order for the rain to fall.

Pretty much as soon as Sephiroth is defeated, the rain falls so we know that at least momentary, his will has been stopped.

I see what you're saying, and yes - Holy was activated after Sephiroth's defeat. So it must show an absence of his will after his defeat. However, CoL:White also shows that Sephiroth's will continues to exist after his death:

The woman had sensed a different presence within the Lifestream cycling around the planet. It was the vehemence of a strong will, one that would never join with the planet. She knew this consciousness. It was the man who had taken her life. A merciless spirit hidden behind a beauteous wall. That spirit was now operating from within the Lifestream. ~CoL:White 1

So did SE contradict themselves again? Or was the lack of Sephiroth's will only temporary? Or did his defeat only "destroy" the effect of any action taken with his will during Life? Or what?

Quex
 
Since his will is stopped, if Geostigma could be healed by simply curing the misery that Sephiroth's will was causing, all of Geostigma should have been cured the moment he was defeated, but this was not the case.

Okay, true. However, why did Cloud only get Geostigma after FFVII if misery isn't involved? If misery isn't involved, then Cloud's body should have rejected the Jenova cells in his body before the end of FFVII, and he should have come down with Geostigma.

In other words, Geostigma can't be a "natural" reaction of the human body to Jenova cells, or at least some people injected with Jenova cells would have gotten Geostigma before and during FFVII. But it never existed until after FFVII - why? It must have been "caused" somehow by Sephiroth, which means that it's really a status effect of some sort.

Now, once again, why didn't it disappear after Sephiroth's defeat? Sounds to me like SE's contradicting themselves. ^_^

Quex
 
Sephiroth is getting revenge for himself and he's using Jenova to do so. I have a feeling that if Jenova could have, she WOULD HAVE stopped him.

Why would Jenova wipe out nearly all the Cetra after crash landing on the Planet if she didn't intend to overtake the Planet herself? Doesn't sound very benign to me. :P Yes, part of Sephy's motivation is revenge, but he's also intending to overtake the Planet for himself and Jenova. I always felt their intentions were compatible.

Quex
 
Why didn't Great Gospel heal all of Cloud's wounds and make him invincible? Because it was specifically designed for Geostigma this time around.

Have a source saying that it was designed for Geostigma this time around? :P

I totally see your reasoning. GG in AC/ACC isn't operating the same way that GG acted during FFVII. However, I'm just saying that SE didn't designate the GG in AC/ACC as being a different version, yet SE specifically designated Cloud's Omnislash in AC/ACC as being a different version. Why designate one as different but not the other if they are indeed different?

Quex
 
Quote:
 
If the Lifestream is still tainted in DoC, then Great Gospel didn't purify the Lifestream.

I don't believe I said it did.

In your first post in this thread, you said "if Aerith's water could destroy the Negative Lifestream, which is composed of Jenova Cell corrupted Spirit Energy, that it would also destroy Jenova cells within the human body." If Aerith's water destroyed the Negative Lifestream, then the Lifestream was purified.

Quex
 
Quote:
 
Was the Lifestream purified in DoC? As I understand it, it wasn't.

They were creating a new lifestream actually. Not purifying the old one.

Quex
 
Quote:
 
However, did that mean the whole Lifestream was untainted by the end of DoC?

Again they were making a new lifestream. One they could control so they could make the sacrifice to Omega.

Not what I asked. I asked if the Lifestream was indeed purified or left untainted (how doesn't matter) by the end of DoC? As I understand it, it wasn't.

Quex
 
Not really. Dyne shot up a bunch of people in the Gold Saucer. There were dead bodies everywhere. Shinra was full of dead bodies where Sephiroth had killed them. President Shinra was dead too. Ruby didn't decompose right away. Moogle Girl's brother didn't decompose right away either, she had to carry him away remember. Zack didn't decompose right away. There were dead bodies all over Kalm when Vincent was running around there in DoC. There's a Cemetery in Gongaga, so they must bury something there. Sephiroth's body didn't decompose for... like at all XD

Now in battle, yes, in game battle, they disappear right away, but that doesn't hold true for outside the battle system.

Okay, fair enough about dead bodies decomposing in battle vs. dead bodies outside of battle situations. However, the scene in Kalm shows those infected with Geostigma being carted off instead of killed. How do you know they weren't carted off in Edge? Reeve had also sent WRO to help in Edge. We don't know exactly what happened there before Vincent arrived.

Quex
 
Because Geostigma is still around but dormant, if Sephiroth was still around, they'd be suffering. Or is Geostigma not dormant? I don't remember this stuff

I don't remember whether it was ever specified as "dormant", either. However, we do know that people who have Geostigma don't always show symptoms of it, either.

Quex
 
err... okay the wrong thing was in my copy paste XD That above there is something I posted on TLS... but it's good that I posted it because it goes with what you ere saying Anastar. Even if people read everything and see everything they still might come to a different conclusion.

And there's parts you remember, and parts you don't remember. Not everyone's memory is perfect (especially mine - I'm the first to admit it! :lol:)

Quex
 
I do however think that there are things that are set in stone more so than others. I mean you wouldn't argue that Yuffie doesn't love Materia right? but yeah... here's the RIGHT thing I meant to c/p:

You didn't c/p anything. :P

Quex
 
I can understand about not remembering stuff. I mean as you said there's a LOT of stuff out there. It's easy to forget or get ideas confused. That's why we have these consolations.

My point was if someone says something that contradicts something the Ultimania or whathaveyou has said, I'm just going to assume they haven't seen or read it. I mean if I said, "Aerith didn't speak to Zack in the lifestream until right before ACC."

And I'm saying you shouldn't assume that. Sometimes, people don't remember or get confused or remember what's said in different sources than you.

Quex
 
Because in Case of Yuffie, Yuffie and Yuri are in a cave and are sorta attacked by some black liquid.
Shortly afterwards, Yuri gets Geostigma. When I read it, I assumed this liquid was the Negative Lifestream. Basically I figured this:

1. The lifestream was spread out and got Jenova cells all over the place, contaminating areas and people.
2. Sephiroth used his will to create Geostigma.
3. People with Geostimga have their spirit energy tainted due to the stigma and Sephiroth's will, and when they die, their spirits create the Negative Lifestream.
4. Sephiroth sends out the Negative Lifestream to other places (like Wutai) and gets more people sick, and so on.

That flow alright?

Yes, but it raises several questions. I agree that Sephiroth used his will to create Geostigma. As I said above, people with Jenova cells didn't get Geostigma before Sephiroth was defeated - yet we know that some people had Jenova cells before and during FFVII, but they didn't get Geostigma. We never saw Geostigma until after FFVII.

Therefore, Geostigma *can't* be a natural reaction of the human body to Jenova cells, or people would have gotten it before then end of FFVII. Geostigma *has* to be due to Sephiroth's will, and therefore we have to assume that it's really a status affect of some sort.

Quex
 
As for not viable, Jenova cells effect the body which is organic material. Once they're dead, the Jenova cells can't have an effect on them because they're no longer organic. This is basically what makes sense to me anyway.

But you're basing that on the physiology of the human body. You're applying that to an alien life form, which may operate on different principles. Like I said above, Jenova's head and body were separated, yet both still continued to live. That isn't possible for a human body. Hojo's Jenova cells in MotP also "heard" Sephiroth's call for more energy. We know that only Hojo heard it because Aerith was right there and didn't hear it. If Hojo's the only one who heard it, then the "call" came through his Jenova cells. Therefore, his Jenova cells are still operational on some level. How could his J cells still be operational if the cells are dead?

My main point is that we can't assume that the conditions which apply to human bodies also apply to alien life forms from other planets.

Quex
 
TBPH, I'm not sure what Cloud and the others did to Jenova's parts. But I'm assuming they killed those parts, and then the cells got into the lifestream, which was then spread around at the end of the game and got everyone sick and stuff.

But Jenova's head was recovered from the Northern Crater, correct? Therefore, not all of Jenova was dead.

Yes, Jenova cells were mixed into the Lifestream because the Lifestream got tainted. We also know that it washed over people, infecting some who later got Geostigma.

However, you said that Great Gospel destroyed/killed the Jenova cells in the Negative Lifestream. Why did those Jenova cells have to be destroyed/killed if they were already dead?

Quex
 
For the longest time I thought that was the Negative Lifestream that they found, and that it must have Jenova cells because Yuri got sick right afterwards. Now if this isn't the Negative lifestream... then what is it? Is it just contaminated water? Where did it come from? Do you know by chance?

See my comments above. :rolleyes:
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Quexinos
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WOO HOO!
Quote:
 
No, it's not exactly what I was saying, but I agree with you again. Apparently, some people merge more quickly than others, but it doesn't have to be because of guilt or other strong emotions. Strength of will appears to be a factor, perhaps Jenova cells, race (Cetra stick around longer than humans), strong emotions, etc.

Speaking of race being a factor, that might also point to Jenova cells being a factor. After all, Jenova's a different race than humans.

Another interesting thing is the fact that Hojo merged with Sephiroth/Jenova. Did Sephiroth want Hojo's Jenova cells too, or just his spirit energy? Notice also that Hojo "heard" Sephiroth's call and Aerith didn't. That shows that Hojo's Jenova cells were still functioning in the Lifestream.


Lesse
"My son- Jenova's ruler is calling. He’s asking for more life energy. Hahaha, I shall offer myself. Then he will become one with me, the one who he hated the most and looked down upon. This will be our reunion."
He was also giving spirit energy to Sephiroth before he died. This could just be that he's aware that Sephiroth is calling because he knew it was happening when he was alive.

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I wonder if Zack heard Sephy's call?

I would think he would have said something if he did.

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Well, you're assuming that "inner being" = spirit. Inner being could also mean thoughts, memories, emotions, or something. Frankly, I don't see how his spirit could be uploaded and still be in the Lifestream, either (OMG - we agree on something else!), so I have to assume that he doesn't mean spirit when he says "inner being".

The only other possibility is that these are digital *copies* which have been uploaded - not the real thing.

Actually I just read that that "innter being" line isn't in the original Japanese. He just said he uploaded his data. I just don't understand how just data can possess someone and take form like Hojo did.

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Yeah, I can see why you'd think that. Didn't we see black liquid oozing from Geostigma sores on some victim on the street in Edge, too? Thing is, if that's the same stuff that was in the cave in CoY, then why wasn't it oozing from a body?

I guess maybe the stuff in CoY was just contaminated water and the stuff that comes out of Geostigma wounds is somehow different.

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I'd already read your whole post when I wrote that. You have a real thing about assuming that someone hasn't read something, haven't you?

Well I just wanted to make sure you'd have time to read it before I responded, that's all :P

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I still stand by what I said about the Jenova cells being viable in a dead body. I mean, if Jenova's head and body are still alive after being detached from one another (we saw Jenova's body in Hojo's lab and it looked alive),

Which is why I believe she was brain dead. She doesn't seem to be able to do anything without someone else's control, or else she probably would have.

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then you have to assume that her cells still function despite being separated from one another. Hojo also heard Sephiroth's call in the Lifestream in MotP, but Aerith didn't. That means that Hojo's J cells were still functioning despite Hojo being dead on a human level. Jenova's an alien. We don't know what constitutes death for her species, nor do we know exactly what her cells are independently capable of.

I guess I didn't get that he heard it there... I thought he heard it when he was alive because he was sending Sephiroth energy when he died, wasn't he?

..

Also what in the world does any of this have to do with our original argument? XD I honestly don't even remember.

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Another thing you've yet to comment on, but I've said it more than once. If Aerith's Great Gospel kills Jenova cells, then it must be functioning as an attack spell. Since when do Aerith's limit breaks serve any purpose other than healing, protection, or resurrection? Fury Brand lets other party members access their limit breaks, but it's still not an attack spell. None of her limit breaks are. Yet, if Great Gospel is killing Jenova cells, then it has transformed into an attack spell. Seems curious to me.

I wasn't trying to ignore it, I saw you say it, I'm just not sure what else to say besides it's curing a horrible disease. Don't think of it as attacking Jenova cells, think of it as curing a disease. A doctor isn't a murderer for killing germs is he? Besides doesn't "Seal Evil" silence and stop an enemy? That's an attack spell.

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I see what you're saying, and yes - Holy was activated after Sephiroth's defeat. So it must show an absence of his will after his defeat. However, CoL:White also shows that Sephiroth's will continues to exist after his death:

The woman had sensed a different presence within the Lifestream cycling around the planet. It was the vehemence of a strong will, one that would never join with the planet. She knew this consciousness. It was the man who had taken her life. A merciless spirit hidden behind a beauteous wall. That spirit was now operating from within the Lifestream. ~CoL:White 1

So did SE contradict themselves again? Or was the lack of Sephiroth's will only temporary? Or did his defeat only "destroy" the effect of any action taken with his will during Life? Or what?

I'd say that it temporarily stops his will. And think about this too, the Negative Lifestream sorta dispersed after he was defeated in FFVII AC and it was his will that held it together.


...


OH SHIT I JUST REALIZED!
Aerith's holy rain never touched the Negative Lifestream, did it? It disappeared when Sephiroth was defeated. Wouldn't that signify his will going away, if not for a moment? If his will goes away, Geostigma should have been cured, right? But it still took Aerith's holy rain to touch the people who had Geostigma to be cured. If Sephiroth's will had stopped, the only thing LEFT to do is to destroy the Jenova cells.

Quote:
 
Okay, true. However, why did Cloud only get Geostigma after FFVII if misery isn't involved? If misery isn't involved, then Cloud's body should have rejected the Jenova cells in his body before the end of FFVII, and he should have come down with Geostigma.

I don't think anyone really knows WHEN someone comes down with the stigma. It took Denzel a while to get it too didn't it? Whereas Ruby got it right away.

Quote:
 
In other words, Geostigma can't be a "natural" reaction of the human body to Jenova cells, or at least some people injected with Jenova cells would have gotten Geostigma before and during FFVII,

Because Sephiroth didn't start the Geostigma thing until after FFVII. Also I'm not sure if I said it was natural, but keep in mind Sephiroth was at the helm here so I'm sure he did something to the cells that made them more alienish.

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But it never existed until after FFVII - why? It must have been "caused" somehow by Sephiroth,

Exactly.

Quote:
 
which means that it's really a status effect of some sort.

.. okay what? I'm really not sure how you came to that conclusion. You're confusing me :(

It goes like this.

Seph dies
Jenova cells are spread all over the place
Seph begins Geostigma in those who have Jenova cells
They die and the negative lifestream is born

etc...

Quote:
 
Why would Jenova wipe out nearly all the Cetra after crash landing on the Planet if she didn't intend to overtake the Planet herself? Doesn't sound very benign to me. :P Yes, part of Sephy's motivation is revenge, but he's also intending to overtake the Planet for himself and Jenova. I always felt their intentions were compatible.

Yeah you could say that. I always thought Jenova just liked to kill things. She uses up all of the natural resources, then she uses the planet to crash into another one. I think anyway.

The thing is Jenova's a kiling machine so, she would probably rather do it all herself. I can see her killing Sephiroth and trying to take over herself.

Quote:
 
Have a source saying that it was designed for Geostigma this time around?

The fact that it cured Geostigma and did nothing else.

Quote:
 
I totally see your reasoning. GG in AC/ACC isn't operating the same way that GG acted during FFVII. However, I'm just saying that SE didn't designate the GG in AC/ACC as being a different version, yet SE specifically designated Cloud's Omnislash in AC/ACC as being a different version. Why designate one as different but not the other if they are indeed different?

Well... to me that's not really important. I mean Aerith rallying up the Lifestream at the end of Maiden doesn't have a name. Sephiroth slashing Cloud 8 times doesn't have a name. I think Tifa does a couple things to Loz that don't have names. It doesn't need a new name... it's a thing she did. And it worked XD

Quote:
 
In your first post in this thread, you said "if Aerith's water could destroy the Negative Lifestream, which is composed of Jenova Cell corrupted Spirit Energy, that it would also destroy Jenova cells within the human body." If Aerith's water destroyed the Negative Lifestream, then the Lifestream was purified.

Well first of all, seems there might not be Jenova cells in the negative Lifestream like I thought. Second of all, if there were, not ALL the Jenova cells would be in there.

Quote:
 
Not what I asked. I asked if the Lifestream was indeed purified or left untainted (how doesn't matter) by the end of DoC? As I understand it, it wasn't.

You'd be right.

Quote:
 
Okay, fair enough about dead bodies decomposing in battle vs. dead bodies outside of battle situations. However, the scene in Kalm shows those infected with Geostigma being carted off instead of killed. How do you know they weren't carted off in Edge? Reeve had also sent WRO to help in Edge. We don't know exactly what happened there before Vincent arrived.

And the WRO got there and was like "It's quiet, where is everyone?" If they had gone around collecting dead bodies, they would have said "Wow that was a lot of dead bodies." not "it's quiet"

Vincent: What happened here?
Shalua: That's what I'd like to know.
Shalua: I'm here on other business, but something's not right. It's too quiet.
Shalua: I've seen no trace of Deepground, or the squads that were sent in to
fight them. Also, where are the 500 people who are supposed to still
be living here?
Well, this is getting us nowhere. Like I said, I
have business to attend to. I'll see you around.


and you come across a dying WRO member:

WRO Member: Ambushed... by... soldier... in red...
WRO Member: Squad... wiped out...
WRO Member: Warehouse... on the... edge of town...
WRO Member: They... were gathering... civilians...


And once we get there, we see that they are all gone. The citizens of Edge were gathered and taken away to DG to be sacrificed for Omega's revival.

Quote:
 
Therefore, Geostigma *can't* be a natural reaction of the human body to Jenova cells, or people would have gotten it before then end of FFVII. Geostigma *has* to be due to Sephiroth's will, and therefore we have to assume that it's really a status affect of some sort.

I'm still not following this. Jenova cells can shape shift and such, it's possible Sephiroth just told the cells to... shape shift to something a little more menacing. Sephiroth is causing the cells to do whatever it is they need to do to make the body sick and to taint the spirit.... I don't see how that's a status effect.

Quote:
 
How could his J cells still be operational if the cells are dead?

...

However, you said that Great Gospel destroyed/killed the Jenova cells in the Negative Lifestream. Why did those Jenova cells have to be destroyed/killed if they were already dead?

But but, I wrote a long thing about how J cells don't die but they don't effect the bodies once they're dead and when I said "They're dead" I meant the people and not the cells and... and ... :(

Quote:
 
See my comments above.

I commented... so, no u :P
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Quexinos
 
"My son- Jenova's ruler is calling. He’s asking for more life energy. Hahaha, I shall offer myself. Then he will become one with me, the one who he hated the most and looked down upon. This will be our reunion."
He was also giving spirit energy to Sephiroth before he died.  This could just be that he's aware that Sephiroth is calling because he knew it was happening when he was alive.

Then why does he say "my son... *IS* calling" in present tense? That sound to me like he's hearing the call currently. Besides, you now say that J cells are still alive in dead bodies in the Lifestream - so why wouldn't they be functioning?

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
I wonder if Zack heard Sephy's call?

I would think he would have said something if he did.

Or it wasn't considered important enough to include.

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Actually I just read that that "innter being" line isn't in the original Japanese. He just said he uploaded his data.  I just don't understand how just data can possess someone and take form like Hojo did.

I don't understand it, either - but at the same time, do you know how to upload your mind to a computer? :lol: It's science fiction - whatdye want? :P

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I guess maybe the stuff in CoY was just contaminated water and the stuff that comes out of Geostigma wounds is somehow different.

I don't think there's anything that gives us a definite answer as of yet.

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Well I just wanted to make sure you'd have time to read it before I responded, that's all.

Brat. :P

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I still stand by what I said about the Jenova cells being viable in a dead body. I mean, if Jenova's head and body are still alive after being detached from one another (we saw Jenova's body in Hojo's lab and it looked alive),

Which is why I believe she was brain dead. She doesn't seem to be able to do anything without someone else's control, or else she probably would have.

Again - that's assumption based on what would happen to a human. A human would also cease to live if it's head were separated from its body. Jenova's still alive. So how can you assume that Jenova's brain dead?

Also, if a human were buried alive, they would never survive for 2000 years. A human would starve to death or die from dehydration and/or lack of oxygen. If that didn't get them, they'd die of old age. :lol: But Jenova survived. Why? She's alien. What she needs to survive isn't the same as what a human needs to survive. So you can't say that what would kill a human would also kill Jenova.

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I guess I didn't get that he heard it there... I thought he heard it when he was alive because he was sending Sephiroth energy when he died, wasn't he?

Yes, Hojo was trying to send energy to Sephiroth before he died. But I thought he heard the call while in the Lifestream, since he put it in present tense. Besides, you now say that J cells are still alive in dead bodies in the Lifestream - so why wouldn't they still be functioning?

Quote:
 
Also what in the world does any of this have to do with our original argument? XD I honestly don't even remember.

I was wondering whether J cells are still alive in the Lifestream, since you're saying that Great Gospel killed the Jenova cells in the Neg Lifestream. Jenova cells would have to still be alive in the Neg Lifestream for Great Gospel to kill them.

Quote:
 
I wasn't trying to ignore it, I saw you say it, I'm just not sure what else to say besides it's curing a horrible disease.  Don't think of it as attacking Jenova cells, think of it as curing a disease.  A doctor isn't a murderer for killing germs is he?

And what I'm saying is that if it kills Jenova cells, then it's an attack spell. The "diseases" cured by Aerith's spells are cured as status effects.

Quote:
 
Besides doesn't "Seal Evil" silence and stop an enemy?  That's an attack spell.

That's stopping or curing a status effect. "Seal Evil" would be an attack spell if it killed the enemy casting that spell/status effect. You're saying that Geostigma is cured by killing Jenova. None of her limit breaks cure anything by killing the enemy responsible for it. For that matter, status effects like Fury continue after the enemy is killed, right?

Quote:
 
I'd say that it temporarily stops his will.  And think about this too, the Negative Lifestream sorta dispersed after he was defeated in FFVII AC and it was his will that held it together.

:lol: I'm glad you said what you said below, coz I was just about to pounce on it. :P

Quote:
 
OH SHIT I JUST REALIZED!
Aerith's holy rain never touched the Negative Lifestream, did it?  It disappeared when Sephiroth was defeated.  Wouldn't that signify his will going away, if not for a moment?  If his will goes away, Geostigma should have been cured, right?  But it still took Aerith's holy rain to touch the people who had Geostigma to be cured.  If Sephiroth's will had stopped, the only thing LEFT to do is to destroy the Jenova cells.

Hold on. We don't normally see the Neg Lifestream manifest, do we? I don't remember seeing the Neg Lifestream manifest at any other point during AC/ACC, and we don't hear about it manifesting during the novella's (except for maybe that black stuff in the cave in CoY - but we're not sure about that). Therefore, it would only disappear because Sephiroth's will is gone if he had *summoned* it during battle. For that matter, didn't the Neg Lifestream appear at the same time Sephiroth appeared? :unsure: If so, it may have manifested as part of his "resurrection".

However, even though the Neg Lifestream disappeared, it still existed. We know that because the Lifestream was still tainted in DoC. So the existence of the Neg Lifestream can't be dependent on Sephiroth's will. If it is, then it would have to disappear when Sephy's will was "temporarily gone" and come back.

So if the Neg Lifestream isn't dependent on Sephiroth's will, then is Geostigma?

At any rate, Vincent says that Geostigma is the human body's reaction to Jenova cells - in the next part, I see we agree that Sephy had something to do with the existence of it.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
In other words, Geostigma can't be a "natural" reaction of the human body to Jenova cells, or at least some people injected with Jenova cells would have gotten Geostigma before and during FFVII,

Because Sephiroth didn't start the Geostigma thing until after FFVII. Also I'm not sure if I said it was natural, but keep in mind Sephiroth was at the helm here so I'm sure he did something to the cells that made them more alienish.
Quote:
 
But it never existed until after FFVII - why? It must have been "caused" somehow by Sephiroth,

Exactly.

So Sephy had something to do with the existence of Geostigma. It wasn't the Jenova cells alone causing it. If it wasn't the Jenova cells alone causing it, then how would killing Jenova cells cure it?

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
which means that it's really a status effect of some sort.

.. okay what? I'm really not sure how you came to that conclusion. You're confusing me. It goes like this.

Seph dies
Jenova cells are spread all over the place
Seph begins Geostigma in those who have Jenova cells
They die and the negative lifestream is born.

Oh, bah... if Sephiroth creates Geostigma in those who have J cells by creating anger and hatred and misery in them, then it's a status effect. :P We've ascertained that it's not the J cells alone causing it, and that Sephy had something to do with it, right? Aerith says in CoL:White that the spirits in the Neg Lifestream are filled with anger and hatred and misery. Therefore, Sephy must have caused the anger, hatred, and misery in them as a status effect.

Which, btw - Great Gospel would cure without killing the J cells, since GG cures status effects.

Quote:
 
Yeah you could say that. I always thought Jenova just liked to kill things.  She uses up all of the natural resources, then she uses the planet to crash into another one.  I think anyway.

The thing is Jenova's a kiling machine so, she would probably rather do it all herself. I can see her killing Sephiroth and trying to take over herself.

I agree that she'd rather do it herself. :lol:

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Have a source saying that it was designed for Geostigma this time around?

The fact that it cured Geostigma and did nothing else.

Then why would SE specify that it's Great Gospel? I'm not expecting an answer to that - I mean, SE obviously messed up. I'm just saying that if SE designated it as Great Gospel, then we have to assume that it operates on the same basis - true?

Quote:
 
Well... to me that's not really important.  I mean Aerith rallying up the Lifestream at the end of Maiden doesn't have a name.  Sephiroth slashing Cloud 8 times doesn't have a name.  I think Tifa does a couple things to Loz that don't have names.  It doesn't need a new name... it's a thing she did.  And it worked XD

But it *is* given a name - Great Gospel.

Quote:
 
Well first of all, seems there might not be Jenova cells in the negative Lifestream like I thought. Second of all, if there were, not ALL the Jenova cells would be in there.

It also seems like Geostigma is caused by more than just Jenova cells.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Not what I asked. I asked if the Lifestream was indeed purified or left untainted (how doesn't matter) by the end of DoC? As I understand it, it wasn't.

You'd be right.

Then the Negative Lifestream still exists. If the Neg Lifestream still exists, then why wouldn't Sephiroth still exist?

Quote:
 
And the WRO got there and was like "It's quiet, where is everyone?" If they had gone around collecting dead bodies, they would have said "Wow that was a lot of dead bodies." not "it's quiet"

Vincent: What happened here?
Shalua: That's what I'd like to know.
Shalua: I'm here on other business, but something's not right. It's too quiet.
Shalua: I've seen no trace of Deepground, or the squads that were sent in to
fight them. Also, where are the 500 people who are supposed to still
be living here?
Well, this is getting us nowhere. Like I said, I
have business to attend to. I'll see you around.


and you come across a dying WRO member:

WRO Member: Ambushed... by... soldier... in red...
WRO Member: Squad... wiped out...
WRO Member: Warehouse... on the... edge of town...
WRO Member: They... were gathering... civilians...


And once we get there, we see that they are all gone. The citizens of Edge were gathered and taken away to DG to be sacrificed for Omega's revival.

Point is, we weren't there while this was happening. There's a mother in Kalm who's not killed on the spot:

The mother has a red tint with the words "Geostigma detected" beside her. One dog creature pins down the mother while another dog drags the girl away,
and takes her inside a container. Vincent finds the container and frees her;
the girl runs away crying "Mommy!", to which the mother replies "Rio!"]


I know what Weiss said in his broadcast, but the dog creature doesn't kill the mother on the spot - the mother calls to her daughter after Vincent frees her, so she wasn't dead. Was the dog creature going to drag the mother away in a container separate from the untainted container? That seems reasonable, since it seems unreasonable to kill those tainted with Geostigma on the spot. If you kill those with Geostigma on the spot, then you're just going to feed the Neg Lifestream.

So what exactly did they intend to do with those tainted with Geostigma? Seems to me they'd want to get rid of them in a way that wouldn't feed the Neg Lifestream.

Quote:
 
I'm still not following this.  Jenova cells can shape shift and such, it's possible Sephiroth just told the cells to... shape shift to something a little more menacing.  Sephiroth is causing the cells to do whatever it is they need to do to make the body sick and to taint the spirit.... I don't see how that's a status effect.

Explained above.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
How could his J cells still be operational if the cells are dead?

...

However, you said that Great Gospel destroyed/killed the Jenova cells in the Negative Lifestream. Why did those Jenova cells have to be destroyed/killed if they were already dead?

But but, I wrote a long thing about how J cells don't die but they don't effect the bodies once they're dead and when I said "They're dead" I meant the people and not the cells and... and ...

Oh, you meant the J cells weren't dead by that? Sorry, I misunderstood. :blush: AND I EVEN READ IT!!!! :P
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Quexinos
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WOO HOO!
Okay so I've tried 5 times now to reply to the Geostigma topic and every time I do, FireFox totally freezes, so I have to do a force quit... and then it won't let me restart firefox and I have to restart my computer . <_<

So I'm just going to do this for right now and if you guys want to merge the threads, that's fine. But for now I don't know how else to get around this. It's weird.

Quote:
 
Then why does he say "my son... *IS* calling" in present tense? That sound to me like he's hearing the call currently. Besides, you now say that J cells are still alive in dead bodies in the Lifestream - so why wouldn't they be functioning?

Cause his son was calling, and he knew this.. but now I have another question. I used to kind of think that when someone died, their Jenova cells would "die" as well and end up in the lifestream. It made sense but now I'm not so sure. I mean I know some cells got in there when those Jenova parts were defeated by Cloud and Co, but as pointed out in DoC, there's still cells in there. This lead me to believe that when people with J cells die, the cells "die" too and end up in the lifestream. But of course Aerith only used a portion of the lifestream to cleanse everything so maybe not all of the J cells got out in that time... so maybe my theory on people dying with J cells was wrong. I'm not sure.

(you don't have to reply to that BTW, just musing :P)

As for J cells, I don't believe they can effect a spirit and here's why. At the end of DoC when Nero pushes Hojo out of Weiss, you see a kind of lifestream effect take place. This leads me to believe that Hojo's spirit was involved in this somehow and it wasn't all just technology. perhaps the data Hojo uploaded was able to somehow call his spirit back. :dunno: If the J cells were effecting Hojo's spirit, he wouldn't have been able to possess Weiss at all since obviously that would screw up his whole untainted lifestream thing.

Plus again, Zack didn't go anywhere in the lifestream or hear anything.

Quote:
 
Or it wasn't considered important enough to include.

But wouldn't he have at least gone to Sephirothor something if Sephiroth was calling everyone with Jenova cells?

Quote:
 
So how can you assume that Jenova's brain dead?

Because she's not doing anything. Why isn't she doing anything? Why isn't she out there killing and what not? It took Sephiroth's will to "awaken" her if you will, and even then he was the one in charge.

Quote:
 
Also, if a human were buried alive, they would never survive for 2000 years. A human would starve to death or die from dehydration and/or lack of oxygen. If that didn't get them, they'd die of old age.:lol: But Jenova survived. Why? She's alien. What she needs to survive isn't the same as what a human needs to survive. So you can't say that what would kill a human would also kill Jenova.

I did kinda wonder if the Cetra magic had anything to do with this.

Quote:
 

Yes, Hojo was trying to send energy to Sephiroth before he died. But I thought he heard the call while in the Lifestream, since he put it in present tense. Besides, you now say that J cells are still alive in dead bodies in the Lifestream - so why wouldn't they still be functioning?

See above.

Quote:
 
I was wondering whether J cells are still alive in the Lifestream, since you're saying that Great Gospel killed the Jenova cells in the Neg Lifestream. Jenova cells would have to still be alive in the Neg Lifestream for Great Gospel to kill them.

Even if there were J cells in the Negative Lifestream that doesn't mean that ALL of the Jenova cells were in there.

Quote:
 
And what I'm saying is that if it kills Jenova cells, then it's an attack spell. The "diseases" cured by Aerith's spells are cured as status effects.

A disease is not a status ailment. A status ailment is darkness, poison, mini ... things like that. Diseases are completely different.

Quote:
 
That's stopping or curing a status effect. "Seal Evil" would be an attack spell if it killed the enemy casting that spell/status effect. You're saying that Geostigma is cured by killing Jenova. None of her limit breaks cure anything by killing the enemy responsible for it. For that matter, status effects like Fury continue after the enemy is killed, right?

It cant be a status ailment. No materia can cure it. No magic spell can cure it (save Aerith's Great Gospel) It's a fatal wasting disease. It's been said many times that Geostigma is a disease, and if no materia or magic can cure it, the only way to get rid of the disease is to get rid of what's causing it.

A mysterious illness which spread following the Meteor Crisis. It causes black spots to appear on the skin of the sufferers. There is no cure, and sufferers are gradually weakened by random attacks of pain, eventually proving fatal. This is a condition brought on by the overworking of the body’s immune system, trying to purge Jenova’s cells that have entered the body.

Now you keep saying that Aerith's GG is the same as it is in the game, but this is just more proof that it isn't. Her Great Gospel heals all status ailments, and there's also materia for each status ailment and so on. If Geostigma can't be cured by materia or magic, it can't be a status ailment.

Quote:
 
I don't remember seeing the Neg Lifestream manifest at any other point during AC/ACC, and we don't hear about it manifesting during the novella's (except for maybe that black stuff in the cave in CoY - but we're not sure about that). Therefore, it would only disappear because Sephiroth's will is gone if he had *summoned* it during battle. For that matter, didn't the Neg Lifestream appear at the same time Sephiroth appeared? :unsure: If so, it may have manifested as part of his "resurrection".

He did summon it, it was like this

Sephiroth: What I want Cloud, is to sail the cosmos with this planet as my vessel. Just as my mother did long ago... *holds hand into the air and Negative Lifestream enters*

And when he's defeated it disperses.

Quote:
 
However, even though the Neg Lifestream disappeared, it still existed. We know that because the Lifestream was still tainted in DoC. So the existence of the Neg Lifestream can't be dependent on Sephiroth's will. If it is, then it would have to disappear when Sephy's will was "temporarily gone" and come back.

I think you're confusing the negative lifestream with tainted lifestream. The lifestream is "tainted" because of J cells. Just because there's J cells in the regular lifestream doesn't mean the negative lifestream still exists. The Negative Lifestream is made up of those who have died of Geostigma. There might be J cells in it, I'm not sure. But the one thing that I think you misunderstand here is the Negative Lifestream is made up of those who died of Geostigma. That's how it is created. The lifestream being tainted with J cells has nothing to do with the Negative Lifestream being created.

A mysterious illness which spread following the Meteor Crisis. It causes black spots to appear on the skin of the sufferers. There is no cure, and sufferers are gradually weakened by random attacks of pain, eventually proving fatal. This is a condition brought on by the overworking of the body’s immune system, trying to purge Jenova’s cells that have entered the body. And even more terrifyingly, the spiritual energy of the dead afflicted with Geostigma will separate from the normal cycle of life and join the Negative Lifestream — Jenova’s memetic legacy lurking in the Lifestream — and contribute to its power to corrode away the planet.

Quote:
 
So if the Neg Lifestream isn't dependent on Sephiroth's will, then is Geostigma?

The Neg Lifestream IS dependent on Sephiroth's will. Doesn't CoLB sorta say this?

Quote:
 
So Sephy had something to do with the existence of Geostigma. It wasn't the Jenova cells alone causing it. If it wasn't the Jenova cells alone causing it, then how would killing Jenova cells cure it?


There are two parts to Geostigma. One is the Jenova cells, and the other is the misery and hatred that taints the spirit, which is caused by Sephiroth's will. If it was just the hatred and misery that needed to be healed, that could be taken care of by defeating Sephroth. If Sephiroth's will is no longer there, the hold he has on the spirits will be gone too. You agree with me that Seph had something to do with it, so if Sephiroth's will was stopped, which we KNOW it was because that's when the GG Rain fell, all of Geostigma should have been gone, BUT while Cloud was chasing Kadaj, he gets cured... we KNOW that it wasn't Sephiroth's will that went away, because Sephiroth hadn't been defeated yet. Also, if it was just Sephiroth's will that needed to be gone, Denzel would have been healed right away when Seh was killed, but he needed to be touched by the water.

Quote:
 
We've ascertained that it's not the J cells alone causing it, and that Sephy had something to do with it, right? Aerith says in CoL:White that the spirits in the Neg Lifestream are filled with anger and hatred and misery. Therefore, Sephy must have caused the anger, hatred, and misery in them as a status effect.

Which, btw - Great Gospel would cure without killing the J cells, since GG cures status effects.

Except that these were things done by his will, so when he was defeated and his will was stopped, all of Geostigma should have been gone. Again, two parts to Geostigma. Sephiroth's will and J Cells. Sephiroth's will went away, it was still there, ... there's only one other way to stop the disease.

Quote:
 
Then why would SE specify that it's Great Gospel? I'm not expecting an answer to that - I mean, SE obviously messed up. I'm just saying that if SE designated it as Great Gospel, then we have to assume that it operates on the same basis - true?

Eh I think SE probably doesn't care XD
They probably SHOULD HAVE called it something else, really. But you know, they're lazy and stuff.

Quote:
 
But it *is* given a name - Great Gospel.

[youtube]x4uAuICxsgc[/youtube]

Quote:
 
So what exactly did they intend to do with those tainted with Geostigma? Seems to me they'd want to get rid of them in a way that wouldn't feed the Neg Lifestream.

But there were dead bodies everywhere in Kalm. Those people were killed for a reason. We know they killed many people with Geostigma. If they just carted the ones with Geostigma away, what would they do with them? And why didn't we ever hear about them?

Quote:
 
Oh, you meant the J cells weren't dead by that? Sorry, I misunderstood. :blush: AND I EVEN READ IT!!!! :P

We can't take you anywhere.
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Shiva
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Just a quick comment with a pic: http://www.finalfantasyunion.com/cprofiles/img/jenova.jpg.

Jenova does, in fact, have silver hair... or white. It's hard to tell with the lighting.

One of her eyes is also glowing. Does that not denote life of some sort? :unsure:
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Quexinos

Quexinos
 
Okay so I've tried 5 times now to reply to the Geostigma topic and every time I do, FireFox totally freezes, so I have to do a force quit... and then it won't let me restart firefox and I have to restart my computer.

So I'm just going to do this for right now and if you guys want to merge the threads, that's fine.  But for now I don't know how else to get around this.  It's weird.

That's weird. Merged.

Quex
 
Cause his son was calling, and he knew this.. but now I have another question.

Possible, but it's also possible that he's hearing it. If the J cells are alive, then they're functioning.

Quex
 
I used to kind of think that when someone died, their Jenova cells would "die" as well and end up in the lifestream.  It made sense but now I'm not so sure.  I mean I know some cells got in there when those Jenova parts were defeated by Cloud and Co, but as pointed out in DoC, there's still cells in there.  This lead me to believe that when people with J cells die, the cells "die" too and end up in the lifestream. But of course Aerith only used a portion of the lifestream to cleanse everything so maybe not all of the J cells got out in that time... so maybe my theory on people dying with J cells was wrong.  I'm not sure.

Very honestly, I'm not sure, either. However, if Aerith used GG to kill J cells in the Negative Lifestream, then those J cells have to be alive.

Quex
 
As for J cells, I don't believe they can effect a spirit and here's why.  At the end of DoC when Nero pushes Hojo out of Weiss, you see a kind of lifestream effect take place.

Then Sephy's will shouldn't be able to fill the spirits with J cells with misery and hatred. He'd be making ALL spirits miserable, not just the ones with J cells.

Quex
 
This leads me to believe that Hojo's spirit was involved in this somehow and it wasn't all just technology.  perhaps the data Hojo uploaded was able to somehow call his spirit back. If the J cells were effecting Hojo's spirit, he wouldn't have been able to possess Weiss at all since obviously that would screw up his whole untainted lifestream thing.

True. If Hojo's spirit merged with Weiss, the Lifestream would get tainted.

Quex
 
Plus again, Zack didn't go anywhere in the lifestream or hear anything.

I'm assuming that Zack's spirit did travel in the Lifestream, since he saw what happened during the Lifestream event and saw Cloud finish off Sephiroth. It also says that he moved:

Zack guided his energy into the second wave as Meteor was thrown back losing its force. ~MotP

How could he "guide his energy" if he wasn't able to move? As for hearing Sephiroth, we don't know that Zack didn't hear it - it wasn't said. Even if he did hear Sephiroth, Zack's will is strong enough to resist Sephiroth's call for help. That's why Zack made SOLDIER.

MotP also says that Zack knew about Sephiroth's plans for Meteor:

The two of them quickly exchanged what they knew. And then Aerith knew. She knew that Cloud wasn't just a cloned doll made for Sephiroth. She also knew why she saw Zack in him now.

Zack also knew. He knew the current state his close friend was in now. The friend who got involved together with him in the incident as they got hunted down by the Shinra. He also knew that Sephiroth was going to be resurrected and become a threat not just to Nibelheim but to everything on the Planet. ~MotP


If Zack knew about what Sephy planned to do, then it seems pretty obvious to me that Zack's hearing Sephiroth's plans. It also says that Zack knew about Cloud's current state. Doesn't that show Zack's aware of what's going on with others who have J cells?

Quex
 
But wouldn't he have at least gone to Sephirothor something if Sephiroth was calling everyone with Jenova cells?

Nope. Zack's strong will allows him to resist Jenova's will and therefore Sephy's will. That's why Zack was able to make SOLDIER.

Quex
 
Because she's not doing anything.  Why isn't she doing anything?  Why isn't she out there killing and what not?  It took Sephiroth's will to "awaken" her if you will, and even then he was the one in charge.

Well, Sephy being in charge could just mean that his will is stronger than hers. But you're right that she's not doing anything. I mean, you have to wonder how Shinra got her inside that metal case in the Nibelheim reactor if she's so damn powerful. Then again, Cloud's team's able to defeat her in combat during Disk One, even on the boat to Junon.

Quex
 
Quote:
 
Also, if a human were buried alive, they would never survive for 2000 years. A human would starve to death or die from dehydration and/or lack of oxygen. If that didn't get them, they'd die of old age. But Jenova survived. Why? She's alien. What she needs to survive isn't the same as what a human needs to survive. So you can't say that what would kill a human would also kill Jenova.

I did kinda wonder if the Cetra magic had anything to do with this.

So the Cetra try to keep her alive? Then why would Aerith want to kill her with GG? :P

Quex
 
Quote:
 
I was wondering whether J cells are still alive in the Lifestream, since you're saying that Great Gospel killed the Jenova cells in the Neg Lifestream. Jenova cells would have to still be alive in the Neg Lifestream for Great Gospel to kill them.

Even if there were J cells in the Negative Lifestream that doesn't mean that ALL of the Jenova cells were in there.

I agree that not all J cells were in the Neg Lifestream. But if Aerith's GG destroys the Neg Lifestream by killing the J cells in it, then there have to be living J cells in the Neg Lifestream or her GG wouldn't kill them. :P

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
And what I'm saying is that if it kills Jenova cells, then it's an attack spell. The "diseases" cured by Aerith's spells are cured as status effects.

A disease is not a status ailment. A status ailment is darkness, poison, mini ... things like that. Diseases are completely different.

But some of Aerith's limit breaks (including GG) cure only status ailments, not diseases.

That's why I'm saying that Geostigma must be a status ailment. It's not caused only by exposure to Jenova cells. We know that because no one injected with Jenova cells prior to the Novella's caught Geostigma. Case of Lifestream also says that Sephiroth is inflicting status ailments on those spirits with J cells - the hatred and misery inflicted by Sephy sound similar to status effects like Fury, Sadness, Rage, etc. Status ailments like those would be curable by GG without killing J cells.

You're trying to say that GG kills Jenova cells when it's not used to kill enemies. GG heals status ailments cast by enemies, but it doesn't kill the enemy. That's like trying to say that Omnislash version 6 will heal.

Quex
 
It cant be a status ailment.  No materia can cure it.  No magic spell can cure it (save Aerith's Great Gospel)  It's a fatal wasting disease.  It's been said many times that Geostigma is a disease, and if no materia or magic can cure it, the only way to get rid of the disease is to get rid of what's causing it.

A mysterious illness which spread following the Meteor Crisis. It causes black spots to appear on the skin of the sufferers. There is no cure, and sufferers are gradually weakened by random attacks of pain, eventually proving fatal. This is a condition brought on by the overworking of the body’s immune system, trying to purge Jenova’s cells that have entered the body.

What's your source? :P

Yes, I know that Geostigma's been called a disease. But it's also been said that Geostigma is the human body's reaction to Jenova cells. We know that's not exactly true because no one injected with Jenova cells ever came down with Geostigma before the Novella's. The only difference in pre-Novella and post-Novella J cells is that Sephy uses the Jenova cells to inflict misery and hatred on spirits who have J cells.

Quex
 
Now you keep saying that Aerith's GG is the same as it is in the game, but this is just more proof that it isn't.  Her Great Gospel heals all status ailments, and there's also materia for each status ailment and so on.  If Geostigma can't be cured by materia or magic, it can't be a status ailment.

Actually, I never said that Aerith's GG is the same as it is in the game. :P I said that it's CALLED Great Gospel in the game and CALLED Great Gospel in AC/ACC, so SE doesn't differentiate them as being any different. But SE *does* differentiate between the Omnislash used by Cloud in FFVII and the Omnislash he uses in AC/ACC.

As for GG healing all status ailments, different status ailments are usually healed by different remedies. Tranquilizer heals Fury, for example, while Hyper cures Sadness. Soft cures Petrify, and Eye Drops cure Darkness. If different remedies cure different status effects, and Geostigma is a new status effect that didn't exist during FFVII, then a new spell will most likely be needed to heal it. In other words, the old Esuna won't deal with it, so a new version of GG is needed to cure it. That would explain why Cloud isn't made invincible. :P

Quex
 
Quote:
 
I don't remember seeing the Neg Lifestream manifest at any other point during AC/ACC, and we don't hear about it manifesting during the novella's (except for maybe that black stuff in the cave in CoY - but we're not sure about that). Therefore, it would only disappear because Sephiroth's will is gone if he had *summoned* it during battle. For that matter, didn't the Neg Lifestream appear at the same time Sephiroth appeared? If so, it may have manifested as part of his "resurrection".

He did summon it, it was like this

Sephiroth: What I want Cloud, is to sail the cosmos with this planet as my vessel. Just as my mother did long ago... *holds hand into the air and Negative Lifestream enters*

And when he's defeated it disperses.

And my main point was that we didn't see the Neg Lifestream manifest at any other time, so it had either had to be summoned or brought along with Sephiroth. :P That would mean that it *is* part of his will. I'll bring up something related in the next section:

Quex
 
Quote:
 
However, even though the Neg Lifestream disappeared, it still existed. We know that because the Lifestream was still tainted in DoC. So the existence of the Neg Lifestream can't be dependent on Sephiroth's will. If it is, then it would have to disappear when Sephy's will was "temporarily gone" and come back.

I think you're confusing the negative lifestream with tainted lifestream. The lifestream is "tainted" because of J cells.

Hold on. You're missing part of the main point here. Geostigma still exists after Sephiroth is destroyed. If his will is gone (even temporarily), and Geostigma is dependent on his will, then Geostigma would be cured when Sephiroth is destroyed. So either Sephiroth still exists, or Geostigma is a status ailment that continues after the defeat of the enemy, or Geostigma is a disease that can't be cured by GG because GG doesn't cure diseases. :P

Quex
 
Just because there's J cells in the regular lifestream doesn't mean the negative lifestream still exists.  The Negative Lifestream is made up of those who have died of Geostigma.  There might be J cells in it, I'm not sure.  But the one thing that I think you misunderstand here is the Negative Lifestream is made up of those who died of Geostigma.  That's how it is created.  The lifestream being tainted with J cells has nothing to do with the Negative Lifestream being created.

A mysterious illness which spread following the Meteor Crisis. It causes black spots to appear on the skin of the sufferers. There is no cure, and sufferers are gradually weakened by random attacks of pain, eventually proving fatal. This is a condition brought on by the overworking of the body’s immune system, trying to purge Jenova’s cells that have entered the body. And even more terrifyingly, the spiritual energy of the dead afflicted with Geostigma will separate from the normal cycle of life and join the Negative Lifestream — Jenova’s memetic legacy lurking in the Lifestream — and contribute to its power to corrode away the planet.

What's your source? :P

Okay, once again your source states that Geostigma is brought on by the overworking of the body's immune system trying to purge Jenova cells. So why did that never happen in humans injected with Jenova cells prior to the Novella's? It has to be something to do with Sephiroth's influence through the Jenova cells, which means it's really a status effect, not a disease.

Also, okay - I said that too simplistically. The tainted Lifestream with Jenova cells causes people to get Geostigma. Thing is, if the Lifestream is still tainted, then it should be possible for people to still get Geostigma. We know that some people still have Geostigma, and we haven't been told whether it's dormant. If it's dormant, then that would indicate that Sephiroth's ability to influence those with Jenova cells is gone. If it's not dormant, then he's still able to exert that influence.

Quex
 
Quote:
 
So if the Neg Lifestream isn't dependent on Sephiroth's will, then is Geostigma?

The Neg Lifestream IS dependent on Sephiroth's will. Doesn't CoLB sorta say this?

Okay, I said that when I was lumping the tainted Lifestream with the Neg Lifestream. The tainted Lifestream isn't dependent on Sephy's will. However, if the Lifestream is still tainted, then it seems to me that people still have a chance of being "infected" by Jenova cells. However, the Lifestream hasn't washed over the entire Planet recently, so there's been less chance of getting infected.

Quex
 
Quote:
 
So Sephy had something to do with the existence of Geostigma. It wasn't the Jenova cells alone causing it. If it wasn't the Jenova cells alone causing it, then how would killing Jenova cells cure it?

There are two parts to Geostigma. One is the Jenova cells, and the other is the misery and hatred that taints the spirit, which is caused by Sephiroth's will. If it was just the hatred and misery that needed to be healed, that could be taken care of by defeating Sephroth.

And if Geostigma were caused only by the presence of J cells in the human body, then at least some humans injected with J cells would have gotten Geostigma before the Novella's.

Quex
 
If Sephiroth's will is no longer there, the hold he has on the spirits will be gone too.

Quex
 
Also, if it was just Sephiroth's will that needed to be gone, Denzel would have been healed right away when Seh was killed, but he needed to be touched by the water.

If that's true, then once Sephiroth's will is stopped, shouldn't it be cured in EVERYONE who has it? :unsure: After all, we've decided that Geostigma wouldn't exist without Sephiroth's influence on Jenova cells. Without Sephy's influence, it should be gone. So either Sephy's will still exists, or the water breaks ONLY Sephy's will without doing anything to the J cells.

Quex
 
Except that these were things done by his will, so when he was defeated and his will was stopped, all of Geostigma should have been gone.  Again, two parts to Geostigma.  Sephiroth's will and J Cells.  Sephiroth's will went away, it was still there, ... there's only one other way to stop the disease.

But if it's only Sephy's influence on the J cells that causes it, and GG breaks Sephy's influence, then the human body will no longer try to purge the J cells when Sephy's influence is broken.

Once again, the human body never reacted that way to J cells before Sephy exerted his influence in CoL:Black. Therefore, it would only take breaking Sephy's influence to cure it. Didn't Aerith and the other Cetra cure Sephy's influence on certain spirits in CoL:White?

The woman drew closer to the souls that had just entered the Lifestream, spirits filled with hate, and tried to heal them. Beneath the surface of enmity were hidden memories. Memories from their lives as normal people. While unremarkable, they had many joyous memories as well. She released those thoughts and dissolved them into the Lifestream. Having lost the core of their emotions, the surface animosity disappeared. The woman had found a solution, however more and more spirits steeped in spite appeared, and it was too much for her to bear. She rushed through the Lifestream in search of other souls to help her. Ancients, on the verge of diffusing. ~CoL:White 2

So she "cures" the hatred and misery in those spirits by releasing their hatred, which means that she breaks Sephiroth's influence on them. Doesn't that indicate that all she has to do is break Sephiroth's influence to cure Geostigma? Pre-Novella Compilation shows that J cells alone don't have that influence on the human body - without Sephy's influence, it should be cured.

Quex
 
Quote:
 
So what exactly did they intend to do with those tainted with Geostigma? Seems to me they'd want to get rid of them in a way that wouldn't feed the Neg Lifestream.

But there were dead bodies everywhere in Kalm. Those people were killed for a reason. We know they killed many people with Geostigma. If they just carted the ones with Geostigma away, what would they do with them? And why didn't we ever hear about them?

I've no idea what they'd do to them, but it seems to me that it would feed the Neg Lifestream if they just let the dead bodies decompose into the Lifestream. I mean, if Hojo's able to upload his mind into a computer, then they must have some way of preventing a dead body from decomposing.

Quex
 
We can't take you anywhere.

:lol: You figured it out! :P


FF Goddess

FF_Goddess
 
Just a quick comment with a pic: http://www.finalfantasyunion.com/cprofiles/img/jenova.jpg.

Jenova does, in fact, have silver hair... or white. It's hard to tell with the lighting.

That's just a "mask", FFG. Sephy rips that off to show the *real* Jenova underneath.
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Shiva
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That's just a "mask", FFG. Sephy rips that off to show the *real* Jenova underneath.
That is the real Jenova. Check it out...

Here is Jenova's mask:
Posted Image

And here she is in FFVII after Sephiroth ripped off the mask:
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Here is that same pic, redone for AC/C:
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And, to get a better idea, here is her full head/torso (before Seph took her head):
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That last pic really drives it home. You can see her weird body and everything. :puke:
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Jon Snow
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khaleesi ♥
FF_Goddess
May 17 2010, 01:37 PM
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That's just a "mask", FFG. Sephy rips that off to show the *real* Jenova underneath.
That is the real Jenova. Check it out...

Here is Jenova's mask:

And here she is in FFVII after Sephiroth ripped off the mask:


Here is that same pic, redone for AC/C:

And, to get a better idea, here is her full head/torso (before Seph took her head):

That last pic really drives it home. You can see her weird body and everything. :puke:

I've always wondered that, FF_Goddess. Good observation.
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
FF_Goddess
 
That is the real Jenova. Check it out...

Yep. Thanks, FFG - you're right. Two YouTube vids show the same thing.

I remember it completely different. Take me off the "Most Knowledgeable about FFVII" awards list, please. I'm making too many mistakes these days. <_<
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Shiva
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May 18 2010, 12:50 PM
I remember it completely different. Take me off the "Most Knowledgeable about FFVII" awards list, please. I'm making too many mistakes these days. <_<

Oh, I don't think so! :lol: You are the one I am always going to with questions about FFVII. In fact, it's typically you correcting me. :lmao:
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Quexinos
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WOO HOO!
May as well reply to some no that I have time... it's kinda hard to remember what all was going on though...

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Very honestly, I'm not sure, either. However, if Aerith used GG to kill J cells in the Negative Lifestream, then those J cells have to be alive.

If you read this out of context it sounds kind of funny... :lmao:

I know what you mean though and you're right. Obviously the Jenova cells are alive in the lifestream. Whether or not they can be completely killed, I guess that's whether or not you believe Great Gospel can destroy them.

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Then Sephy's will shouldn't be able to fill the spirits with J cells with misery and hatred. He'd be making ALL spirits miserable, not just the ones with J cells.

Well it's not like he does that to the spirits themselves or can just do it to anyone. He effects the J cells, causing Geostigma which causes the person to be miserable and upset thus tainting their spirit.. if that makes sense.

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How could he "guide his energy" if he wasn't able to move? As for hearing Sephiroth, we don't know that Zack didn't hear it - it wasn't said. Even if he did hear Sephiroth, Zack's will is strong enough to resist Sephiroth's call for help. That's why Zack made SOLDIER.

No I didn't mean he couldn't move at all, I just meant he didn't say like "OH that's that voice I hear calling" or anything.

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If Zack knew about what Sephy planned to do, then it seems pretty obvious to me that Zack's hearing Sephiroth's plans. It also says that Zack knew about Cloud's current state. Doesn't that show Zack's aware of what's going on with others who have J cells?

I thought he knew cause Aerith just told him :unsure:

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Well, Sephy being in charge could just mean that his will is stronger than hers. But you're right that she's not doing anything. I mean, you have to wonder how Shinra got her inside that metal case in the Nibelheim reactor if she's so damn powerful. Then again, Cloud's team's able to defeat her in combat during Disk One, even on the boat to Junon.

This is why I pretty much believe, for at least a while she was brain dead. It's possible Sephiroth sorta woke her up from her state since she did begin to travel in the Shinra building. But I think whatever the Cetra did to her originally, put her in a state where she couldn't do anything. The reason she woke up for Seph was because he was using her and such.

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So the Cetra try to keep her alive? Then why would Aerith want to kill her with GG?

Because they didn't know how to kill her or deal with her. It was Aerith who figured that out. Great Gospel, is after all, her attack. I would guess this would be that she figured stuff out about Jenova cells in the lifestream much like how Sephiroth absorbed knowledge. I'm sure if Seph can do it, Aerith can figure it out too.

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That's why I'm saying that Geostigma must be a status ailment. It's not caused only by exposure to Jenova cells. We know that because no one injected with Jenova cells prior to the Novella's caught Geostigma. Case of Lifestream also says that Sephiroth is inflicting status ailments on those spirits with J cells - the hatred and misery inflicted by Sephy sound similar to status effects like Fury, Sadness, Rage, etc. Status ailments like those would be curable by GG without killing J cells.

No one had Geostigma before the Novella's because Sephiroth didn't start causing it until after he was dead. It didn't exist before the novellas. Would you at least agree with me that in order for one to have Geostigma, Jenova cells ARE a must? I mean there's basically two parts to it, Jenova cells and Sephiroth's will causing issues. You agree with me there, right?

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What's your source?

OH whoops, 10th Anniversary terms and definitions.
http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii...nd-definitions/

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Yes, I know that Geostigma's been called a disease. But it's also been said that Geostigma is the human body's reaction to Jenova cells. We know that's not exactly true because no one injected with Jenova cells ever came down with Geostigma before the Novella's. The only difference in pre-Novella and post-Novella J cells is that Sephy uses the Jenova cells to inflict misery and hatred on spirits who have J cells.

See above, I think I responded to all of this.

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As for GG healing all status ailments, different status ailments are usually healed by different remedies. Tranquilizer heals Fury, for example, while Hyper cures Sadness. Soft cures Petrify, and Eye Drops cure Darkness. If different remedies cure different status effects, and Geostigma is a new status effect that didn't exist during FFVII, then a new spell will most likely be needed to heal it. In other words, the old Esuna won't deal with it, so a new version of GG is needed to cure it. That would explain why Cloud isn't made invincible.

So we agree that the GG used in AC/C was different than the one in the game. Good, I'm glad.

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Hold on. You're missing part of the main point here. Geostigma still exists after Sephiroth is destroyed. If his will is gone (even temporarily), and Geostigma is dependent on his will, then Geostigma would be cured when Sephiroth is destroyed. So either Sephiroth still exists, or Geostigma is a status ailment that continues after the defeat of the enemy, or Geostigma is a disease that can't be cured by GG because GG doesn't cure diseases

Or it's caused by J cells and those J cels were destroyed :awesome: Also something I keep meaning to bring up but I think I haven't yet is that Jenova is a shape shifter and Sephiroth can manipulate her. While it's true those with Jenova cells before the Novellas didn't get the disease, Sephiroth can manipulate the cells to act up or change which would cause the body to fight them. In fact this is how I believe Geostigma works, Sephiroth makes the cells do something that makes the body fight them off. Isn't that option at least a possibility?

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Also, okay - I said that too simplistically. The tainted Lifestream with Jenova cells causes people to get Geostigma. Thing is, if the Lifestream is still tainted, then it should be possible for people to still get Geostigma. We know that some people still have Geostigma, and we haven't been told whether it's dormant. If it's dormant, then that would indicate that Sephiroth's ability to influence those with Jenova cells is gone. If it's not dormant, then he's still able to exert that influence.

I've been hearing people say that it's dormant for a while now. I have no idea if it's true or not, I don't remember XD
I think the only way to get rid of Geostigma is to get touched by Aerith's Great Gospel.

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And if Geostigma were caused only by the presence of J cells in the human body, then at least some humans injected with J cells would have gotten Geostigma before the Novella's.

It's not cause only by that though, that's just one part of it.

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If that's true, then once Sephiroth's will is stopped, shouldn't it be cured in EVERYONE who has it?

Exactly.

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After all, we've decided that Geostigma wouldn't exist without Sephiroth's influence on Jenova cells. Without Sephy's influence, it should be gone. So either Sephy's will still exists, or the water breaks ONLY Sephy's will without doing anything to the J cells.

I guess what I don't get is why can't it kill the J cells? You'd think at the very least Aerith would want to make sure the disease wouldn't come back. The best way to get rid of it is to get rid of the Jenova cells. I know you think it's possible that Sephiroth is still out there.. if he was, why wouldn't be cause more Geostigma again to try to make another come back? Why did he stop? Why are only the people who weren't touched by Great Gospel the ones who still have it?

The fact that Geostigma still existed after Sephiroth's defeat proves that something else needed to be done.

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Doesn't that indicate that all she has to do is break Sephiroth's influence to cure Geostigma? Pre-Novella Compilation shows that J cells alone don't have that influence on the human body - without Sephy's influence, it should be cured.

Once they're dead yes... but when Geostigma is present in the body, you're dealing with organic material so you have to deal with the Geostigma differently. At that point, even if she had gotten rid of Sephiroth's will temporarily, there was a chance Geostigma could still come back to effect the body.

I think, I'm not positive, but I think basically what Sephiroth does with Geostigma is... he targets those with J cells, and he causes the body to over compensate for them, which causes Geostigma, which brings about pain which brings about misery which taints the soul. That'd be my guess. If that's the case, simply curing the misery wouldn't get rid of the disease and it could still come back especially if Seph is still hanging around.

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I've no idea what they'd do to them, but it seems to me that it would feed the Neg Lifestream if they just let the dead bodies decompose into the Lifestream. I mean, if Hojo's able to upload his mind into a computer, then they must have some way of preventing a dead body from decomposing.

Yeah but that's Hojo, he's nuts. :lol:
Keep in mind too, I'm not sure how many people KNOW about the negative lifestream. I mean Cloud knew... but did the others really know what it was? I don't think they'd know killing someone with Jenova cells would feed the negative lifestream. Unless Cloud told a bunch of people how it worked but I'm not even sure he knew...

and again if Hojo still had the Jenova cells in him, him merging with Weiss would have caused problems...

or something...
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