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| Geostigma | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 4 2010, 11:03 PM (2,047 Views) | |
| Alantie | May 9 2010, 05:29 AM Post #31 |
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Dreams the world far away
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Quex, the problem is I always feel like you're talking down at me, not discussing things. You're asking for opinions on a topic, and I offered mine. You automatically tell me I'm wrong, and it feels that there isn't a point even bothering talking about anything if you're going to do that. I don't care if you disagree with me, but I don't appreciate being told I'm wrong, particularly when I'm offering things to back up what I'm saying. If this is going to be the way it always is, then frankly I'm not going to bother responding to anything else because what's the point?
So it's okay to be disrespectful to someone you're having a conversation with? I don't feel that you respect anything I say unless it's something you agree with. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but it's awfully hard to have a discussion with someone when you feel as if they don't think anything you say has any value. But anyway, I'm stepping out of this because I don't want this to turn into a drama fest. But before I do- Black Lifestream- Negative Lifestream? What the difference does it make what its called when both names imply the same thing? And CoL calls it the Black Lifestream, and the White Lifestream for the pure Lifestream. There's nothing wrong with what I'm calling it, so don't tell me I'm calling it the incorrect name, it's as meaningless as the Aeris vs Aerith thing. Two names, same thing. And HD, I believe the quote your looking for is something like this:
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| Quexinos | May 9 2010, 06:00 AM Post #32 |
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WOO HOO!
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First off, I was not asking for opinions on a topic, I saw some comments being made about Geostigma, that, according to things like Ultimanias and creator interviews, were incorrect. I corrected those statements and provided evidence to back up what I said. Other people came in and offered their opinion on some subjects, and I again, pointed out why those opinions did not match up with the original sources. If you feel like I'm talking down to you because you say "Well this is my opinion." and I say "Well we know that your opinion isn't correct because the sources say this..." then I'm sorry. But that's not me talking down to you, that's me correcting you. If it upsets you that I correct you, it really shouldn't. There have been few times in this thread that I said "Yeah my bad I was wrong." but I didn't get upset at the person who corrected me. Maybe I should choose my words better but I have not yet insulted you, called you a name or said anything like, "Wow where did you get that idea?" So there's really no reason to be offended. As for your Sephiroth quotes, as I've said, that's just what Sephiroth thinks. I'm just saying that he can be wrong and therefore just using what he says as evidence that he isn't going to disappear probably isn't the best idea. As I said though, the next compilation title is probably going to focus on Genesis so before we know anything about whether or not Sephiroth is going to return, we need to get that out of the way first.
If I thought what you said had no value, I'd ignore you. I'm explaining to you why I don't agree with you. We've already agreed to disagree and I'm saying why. You don't have to agree with me, I don't care if you do. You posted your reasons that you think Seph could return and seeing as how I don't think he can return, I felt the need to explain why your quotes didn't do it for me. That's not being disrespectful at all. Frankly I think me saying to you, "Alantie I don't agree with your reasoning and here's why." shows that I DO respect you, as opposed to me just ignoring you or running off elsewhere to talk about you behind your back or something. I mean really confronting someone like that shows a great deal of respect and if I ever say something that you disagree with and you tell me, I'm cool with that. Or if you correct me when I'm wrong, that's even better. I'm not really sure how else to explain that but I've said nothing offensive and if you thought, through only my text, that I was being disrespectful to you, you should read my texts with a different tone because no offense was intended. As for the snark, really what I said wasn't that bad but it wasn't nice. So Hades Daughter, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have been an ass. I was just annoyed with your response. I'm not mad at you and I don't think you're an idiot or anything. There was no reason for me to snark like that,especially without letting you know that I didn't mean to offend. But Anastar already dealt with it so I see no need to bring the issue up further.
It was just an FYI. Again I see nothing to be offended about. The official name is Negative Lifestream and I was pointing that out. You're honestly the first person I've heard call it the Black Lifestream, but I wanted to point out the official name is all. I don't know what would have made that any less offensive really... but maybe I could have thrown some emotes in there.
Yep that's the one I know of. Now that we've done that I'd like to address something brought up in this thread before. Again, I mean no offense, I'm just pointing out something I know, okay? ![]()
Actually we do know he didn't have it for the full two years The official timeline says it was sometime after he brought Denzel home:
These two in his profile says it too:
So, while, yes you are correct, we do NOT have a specific date that he contacted the stigma, we do at least know it was sometime after he brought Denzel back. That's probably why some people were theorizing that he caught it from Denzel :) That cool? Did I do that better? ;)
Unfortunately I don't have the quote handy so I couldn't tell you. I've been asking around for it though. Also from what I'm hearing about it, I was wrong and he was saying they aren't related not that there's no relation between them.
Here's the thing, if that's really true that throughout the years Nomura has said several times then I need to re-evaluate my position. I want to know about this because I want to know if what I've been told isn't accurate. I've made my decision based on something I thought was set in stone, but if it's really not, then I need to make some changes to my conclusion, and I'm not the only one. So please, yes if you have these quotes then show me. And also tell me when they were said and so on. I just don't want it to be a bunch of quotes that people say, "Well I took this to mean this." because if that's the case, I'm probably going to see it differently. The thing about the one Alantie posted, is it's straight up, clear as day "I don't know about Cloud and Tifa." and I want to know if there's others too. So yes, if you have them, post them because I want to see them. That's all. ----------------- So really guys I'm not trying to insult or make you guys feel bad or anything. I'm just telling you what I know. Some people aren't as well versed in the compilation as others and it's only logical that those who have more time to read the information are going to see other people confused or unsure about something, and those who know will correct and help them. I probably could stand to use more emotes in my post because it's coming off as angry or arrogant and that's not what I'm going for. Aside from my snark at HD, I really thought I was helping out, but then yeah it turned into a debate kind of. I have fun debating though and I thought everything was fine. That's why I kept saying that if I'm doing something wrong then tell me. And sometimes debating can be a good thing because you can find flaws in your arguments. And sometimes you learn things. So really, I'm not trying to be a bitch here or come off as mean. So can we just assumed that Quex isn't being a bitch here and just go from there? |
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| Anastar | May 9 2010, 09:47 PM Post #33 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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I'm going to let Quex and Alantie solve this themselves. However, if Alantie feels that way, Quex, then I think you need to respect her feelings. IMO, you were pretty rude when you came back with the bit about Nomura being a liar. The point is, we have reason to question what you said about Great Gospel's affect on Geostigma. We're giving you those reasons. And I thought of another from CoL: White 2: The woman discovered that there was a growing number of spirits within the Lifestream who refused to be absorbed by it. While they were different from the man’s spirit, they rejected the Lifestream due to the same emotion. Hatred. Their feelings towards the planet were steeped in hatred, just like that man’s. This is the result of his influence reaching the surface, she thought. The woman drew closer to the souls that had just entered the Lifestream, spirits filled with hate, and tried to heal them. Beneath the surface of enmity were hidden memories. Memories from their lives as normal people. While unremarkable, they had many joyous memories as well. She released those thoughts and dissolved them into the Lifestream. Having lost the core of their emotions, the surface animosity disappeared. The woman had found a solution, however more and more spirits steeped in spite appeared, and it was too much for her to bear. She rushed through the Lifestream in search of other souls to help her. Ancients, on the verge of diffusing. These fragments of consciousness accepted her undertaking. When she found fragments of consciousness of people she had once known– pitifully few in number– she infused them with her own memories and sought their assistance. She had more spirits on her side now, but even so the hatred borne by that man did not decrease. ~Case of Lifestream: White 2 Isn't that saying that Aerith is curing Geostigma by removing the hatred? In other words, she's curing it as a status effect - not by killing Jenova cells.
The SHM also had Jenova's hair and eyes, but they didn't get it genetically. CoL says that Sephy found spirits with an "acceptable appearance" in the Lifestream.
And I've yet to see where it was stated. ![]()
Okay - but my point is whether SOLDIERs only "mildly" stronger, or "greatly" stronger? What you quoted above doesn't make it sound like they're only "mildly" stronger. 1. Sephiroth is never actually stated as being the strongest being in FFVII. He's only stated as being stronger than Cloud (Which certainly puts him up there, given that most people on a First Class SOLDIER level are above pretty much everything but certain monsters, such as WEAPON), and being the strongest SOLDIER during his days in SOLDIER. What I'm saying is that Cloud wouldn't have had a chance against Sephiroth if he was only "mildly" stronger than a normal human being.
And Sephy was dead at the end of FFVII. Were his Jenova cells dead?
And once again, that means that at least some J cells still exist.
Exactly my point. Why weren't the Cetra able to kill Jenova if they had a form of Great Gospel, and Great Gospel can kill Jenova cells?
As far as we know.
Either that, or Great Gospel can't kill Jenova cells.
I'm saying it's possible, since we heard nothing about Sephiroth making himself known between 1997 and 2003{?).
But as I said earlier, Sephiroth's Jenova cells weren't dead after he was killed. And true that Cloud got shot while GG was supposed to make him invincible, but isn't that like asking why Cloud didn't use a Phoenix Down on Aerith?
The thing is, we don't know. For example, Ifalna have Great Gospel? We don't know. Did other Cetra who were given Holy able to cast Great Gospel? We don't know.
I'm talking about Aerith there - why didn't *Aerith* use Great Gospel to kill Jenova and Sephiroth in the Temple of Ancients before he was able to cast Meteor? She saw Sephiroth there.
I agree with what FFG said - it seems to me that SE has left plenty of room for Sephy to come back, especially since he said he CoL: Black that he would make Cloud the core of his existence and said at the end of AC/ACC that he would never be just a memory.
J cells don't have anything to do with who Cloud loves. However, I don't think that's the only part of the Compilation on which we disagree. So I'm saying - get used to it! ![]() At any rate, I just see that feelings are getting hurt, and that's no good. I don't think the mods and admins are here because you're "saying something you shouldn't", at least in terms of J cells and Geostigma. Personally, I think it's an interesting topic. Also, what you said here to FFG:
I dunno about Great Gospel itself, but I'm pretty sure the pool of water in the back of the Church is just Pure Lifestream plus water, isn't it? As FFG pointed out, Jenova wasn't killed while adrift in the Pure Lifestream, so that pool in the back of the Church shouldn't kill her now. All I have time for right now. *dashes off* |
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| Quexinos | May 10 2010, 04:30 AM Post #34 |
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WOO HOO!
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That's why I wrote that long post explaining that I didn't mean to offend anyone and apologized if I did. That was my way of respecting her feelings and apologizing.
Those were people who died due to Geostigma. Remember that those who died of Geostigma is what makes up the negative lifestream. She's trying to stop them from joining the negative lifestream. Geostigma is a disease of the living, a physical ailment.
I think Sephiroth had a hand in what they looked like. And if not, we don't know who their parents are, they might have had silver hair IRL. We know what Sephiroth's parents looked like and neither of them had silver hair so he must have gotten it from the Jenova cells. On the other hand, sometimes Cloud's eyes change to Jenovaish eyes and he didn't have anything genetic done so I guess it's possible that Jenova cells can affect the appearance some other way. I just don't know how, genetics makes the most sense to me, but obviously Jenova cells can do it other ways. So until I see a better source on that I'll withdraw that point.
Oh well then it wasn't stated.
But he did beat him without Jenova cells. That was in Nibelheim, remember? And Zack who DID have Jenova cells in him (I'm assuming) did not beat Sephiroth. So it's very possible for Cloud to defeat Sephiroth with no Jenova cells because he already did Dunno how strong jenova cells make a SOLDIER really, it probably depends on the SOLDIER but maybe mildly wasn't the best word to describe it. I guess what I meant was that compared to what the cells did to Sephiroth, the other SOLDIERs really couldn't compare much. It makes them a lot stronger, yes, but it made Sephiroth into a nearly god like individual. So that's my bad for explaining that poorly. It's funny how they couldn't defeat Sephiroth, but Cloud, WITHOUT the Jenova cells was able to do it just via his strong ass will.
I would think so... lemme ask this, I don't want to read it all, is Hojo the only one mentioned with Jenova cells in MotP? What you quoted doesn't say that he can't return to the planet, just that he hasn't yet. It doesn't sound like he's bodily in the lifestream, just that his "body" is his self image.
Because it didn't exist back then. Talking about what she did in ACC, Aerith is the creator of the ability. It's her own special power she released in order to save the children and those with Geostigma.
Because she couldn't back then. Magic can improve over time.
Well we're calling it Great Gospel but it's not even really that. It's rain, yes, but it only seems to cure Geostigma and doesn't make people invincible. So really it seems to be a different spell entirely.
I need to look up something on this, so give me a bit while I research this because I don't quite know how to explain it.
I believe it's lifestream mixed with whatever Aerith's spell put in it. Whatever the Great Gospel (or whatever) water had in it. |
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| aerisbolt | May 10 2010, 06:39 PM Post #35 |
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Beautiful Paradox
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So if someone wants to hit me over the head with a stupid sick go right ahead, but what conclusion has been reached in this discussion? From what I can gather Geostigma is dormant in some people, at least by what DOC tells us. So it is like a cancerous disease in remission putting it into our world terms. And as far a Geostigma is concerned as a disease it is more than just Jenova cells, it is about holding on to hatred and how the person feels as a whole, that being combined with coming into contact with the Negative Lifestream is how someone gets it. So right now no new cases have been found, so Great Gospel helped make Geostigma dormant by washing away the fear and the guilt and cleansing the negative lifestream in that area? There is still a debate on whether the Negative Lifestream was wiped out...along with Sephiroth. Now the Negative Lifestream is/was made up of not only hate and Sephiroth but also the Jenova cells? And the Pure Lifestream is only filled with things of this planet, Aerith, love,hope, and memories. Am I following everything so far? I for one do not think Sephiroth is gone nor the Negative Lifestream because the theme is life and there is always positve and negative to make up life. The Ying and Yang effect if you will. We see that symbol many times. Same with Aerith and the Positive Lifestream. They both exist because good and evil always exist. If not the world becomes unbalanced and crumbles right? Now I guess maybe one day the idea is to get rid of all negative/evil and then everyone will finally get to their promised land and a new kind of existence would begin? Again these are just ideas popping in my head, I just want to understand everything the best I can from this discussion. |
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| Jon Snow | May 10 2010, 06:52 PM Post #36 |
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khaleesi ♥
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Thanks for summing that up, aerisbolt. I hadn't been following.
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| Quexinos | May 10 2010, 11:13 PM Post #37 |
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WOO HOO!
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lol, I dunno if there's been one ![]() We're just talking about ideas mostly.
Not quite, coming into contact with the Negative Lifestream IS one way to get Jenova cells inside you, but not the only way. Geostigma starts off with Jenova cells. The 10th Anniversary keyword collection sums it up nicely actually: A mysterious illness which spread following the Meteor Crisis. It causes black spots to appear on the skin of the sufferers. There is no cure, and sufferers are gradually weakened by random attacks of pain, eventually proving fatal. This is a condition brought on by the overworking of the body’s immune system, trying to purge Jenova’s cells that have entered the body. And even more terrifyingly, the spiritual energy of the dead afflicted with Geostigma will separate from the normal cycle of life and join the Negative Lifestream — Jenova’s mimetic legacy lurking in the Lifestream — and contribute to its power to corrode away the planet. 1. One comes into contact with Jenova cells, perhaps this was via the lifestream at the end of FFVII, or perhaps because they were injected. 2. Geostigma begins and the person who has it is rigged with pain and doubt and misery. 3. The person who has it will eventually die and, because of the pain and misery that Geostigma causes, join the negative lifestream.
I believe it killed off the Jenova cells. The Jenova cells are what causes the disease, and the disease itself is what causes the hatred and misery. Therefore just getting rid of the hatred wouldn't get rid of the disease. The hatred and misery does not cause the disease, the disease causes the hatred and misery.. does that make sense? That's why I don't believe that there's any other way to cure Geostigma.
Not quite, the Negative Lifestream is made up of those who died of Geostigma. As the quote says above: And even more terrifyingly, the spiritual energy of the dead afflicted with Geostigma will separate from the normal cycle of life and join the Negative Lifestream — Jenova’s mimetic legacy lurking in the Lifestream — and contribute to its power to corrode away the planet.
The pure lifestream is just the regular lifestream that we know, as far as I know.
I think you're confusing positive lifestream with something else. The regular/positive lifestream was always there. The negative lifestream didn't come until Geostigma created it. Just remember that without Geostigma, the negative lifestream cannot exist. And if those who currently have the disease get cured, the Negative Lifestream will have no basis and be gone forever. ------ So a summery of what I'm trying to say here is this: 1. One comes into contact with Jenova cells, perhaps this was via the lifestream at the end of FFVII, or perhaps because they were injected. 2. Geostigma begins and the person who has it is rigged with pain and doubt and misery. 3. The person who has it will eventually die and, because of the pain and misery that Geostigma causes, join the negative lifestream. (these are backed up by the quote I posted above) 4. The Jenova cells are what causes the disease, and the disease itself is what causes the hatred and misery. The hatred and misery make the disease worse yet, but just getting rid of the hatred wouldn't get rid of the disease. (this is backed up by people having Geostigma in DoC but not being bothered by it) 5. Without Geostigma and the pain and hatred, the negative lifestream can't exist. If those who have it now aren't rigged with misery and pain, I don't think they'd join the negative lifestream and as we know, Geostigma is dormant now. Still there but dormant. (backed up by DoC and the quote I posted) Those are the reasons I believe the negative lifestream is no more and why I think Geostigma can only disappear by getting rid of the Jenova cells. |
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| Anastar | May 10 2010, 11:27 PM Post #38 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Quexinos
Thank you for doing that, Quex. I know that Alantie isn't the only one who feels that way, though. Other people have told me that they are reluctant to post in threads where you participate because they feel offended by your responses. I'm not saying whether those feelings are right or wrong - I'm just saying that's how some people take what you say. If people feel that way, I think it's a shame.
Okay, then that's how she's fighting the negative lifestream. In your first post, you said that Great Gospel dispersed the negative lifestream by killing Jenova cells: I think some people are confused about the Negative Lifestream as well. That is composed of the dead of Geostigma, tied and corrupted due to Sephiroth's will. Aerith's healing water dispersed that too. So it's common sense that if Aerith's water could destroy the Negative Lifestream, which is composed of Jenova Cell corrupted Spirit Energy, that it would also destroy Jenova cells within the human body. ~Quex According to the passage I quoted from CoL:White, Aerith's combating the negative lifestream essentially by treating it as a status effect - by healing the anger and hatred. It says nothing about killing the Jenova cells. So the negative Lifestream isn't dispersed by killing the Jenova cells, but by diffusing the anger. Sorry, but... if you were wrong about the neg Lifestream, you could also be wrong about Geostigma. ![]() It also specifies that Aerith tells other Cetra spirits how to do the same thing, so other Cetra are helping her with it. Another thing I think we have to consider is the fact that none of Aerith's limit breaks are attack spells. Fury Brand allows other characters in the party to access their limit breaks, and Seal Evil casts Silence and Stop on the enemy, but all of Aerith's other limit breaks are for the purpose of healing/protection/resurrection only. So why would you assume that this form of Great Gospel is an attack spell?
No, he didn't. CoL:Black says that Sephiroth used the form of a spirit he found in the Lifestream: He had decided he would use his Mother’s power. With a fragment of Mother’s body, I too can get a body again, the man thought. And so firstly, he tried to manifest on the surface as just a spirit, but his attempt failed. He had already returned the memories of his own appearance to the planet, and so he was not able to produce an image of himself. So the man found memories of a suitable appearance from the Lifestream, and with that form produced an image. It was the form of a boy. ~CoL: Black 3
Did Jenova even have silver hair? IIRC, that was just the "mask" Shinra had created for the real appearance of Jenova. Remember when Sephiroth rips that "mask" off his mother's head? As I remember, the body behind that mask didn't have hair - but it's been awhile since I've seen it, too.
Okay, if it wasn't stated, then you're assuming the Jenova cells were killed on the basis that all diseases are healed by killing the virus (or whatever) that caused it. As I said before, cancer goes into remission when the cells have been killed by radiation or removed - yet it can come back in the same person. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. What if J cells act the same way? What if Geostigma is in remission?
Okay, well my main objection was your description of SOLDIERs as having "mildly" enhanced strength. I think it was a bit more than "mild".
Cloud doesn't have a strong will, remember? That's why he didn't make SOLDIER. Maybe it was just a surge of adrenaline.
No, it says he can't return to the Planet: Hojo wrapped his fingers on the lab coat he was wrapped in and tore it off vigorously. The image of his lab coat was torn into thousands of pieces, flying away wildly like feathers, exposing the body of flesh that was hidden underneath. "...!" Aerith gasped. The body before her was not human but was composed of Jenova's cells, a sight that she had seen many times. Hojo had grown tired of experimenting on the bodies of others and had turned himself into a subject for his corrupted experiments. "Heeheehee. In other words, I'm no different from a sample now. Even you never imagined that had changed this much, did you?" "What have you done... Have you given up your humanity, Professor Hojo? You've violated your soul so greatly you'll never be able to return to the Planet..." ~MoTP She says that Hojo has "violated his humanity" by the injection of Jenova cells. So, his human body may be dead, but are the Jenova cells dead? It sounds to me as if those Jenova cells are still viable. And yes, that's the only soul described as having Jenova cells in MoTP. It mentions the injection of J cells into Sephiroth and Cloud, but Hojo is the only soul described as having Jenova cells. It makes me wonder, though - I mean, Jenova was still alive after Sephiroth's defeat in FFVII, wasn't she? Wasn't her head in the box that Rufus was holding? If she's still alive, then aren't her cells still alive? Even in CoL:Black, Sephy says that he can get a body again using his Mother's power: [Sephiroth] had decided he would use his Mother’s power. With a fragment of Mother’s body, I too can get a body again, the man thought. ~CoL:Black 3 If he's using a fragment of his Mother's body to create a new body, then his Mother must still be alive. If his Mother is alive, then her cells are still alive, even though they've been fragmented into other bodies.
Either that, or it did exist and it didn't kill Jenova. I mean, once again - Aerith is not the first Cetra to carry Holy. Holy has been passed down through the generations. We have to assume that the other Cetra who carried Holy were at an equivalent level of magic to Aerith, or else they wouldn't have been able to summon Holy if necessary. therefore, any of the Cetra who carried Holy before Aerith must have had Great Gospel or at least a form of it. You also have to consider the Cetra spirits who were guarding the Black Materia in the Temple of Ancients. I would think those spirits would have to have some proficiency in magic in order to be given such a responsibility.
Assumption. Yes, magic can improve over time, but what Aerith used in AC/ACC wasn't designated as a new form of Great Gospel. The Omnislash version that Cloud used was designated as a new form of Omnislash, but I don't believe Great Gospel was designated as anything other than "Great Gospel rain".
Yet, it was called "Great Gospel rain", wasn't it? The Omnislash used by Cloud was translated as "Omnislash version 5", so it was considered a modified version of Omnislash. Here's the description of Great Gospel from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania: Aerith infuses prayer into the staff, and makes the blessed rain pour. Aerith keeps praying, ceasing the rain while Angels appear in the rift of clouds. From the sky which clears of Angels, the invincible power that heals everything is given to the party. Source: http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii...profile-p48-51/ It only says that it heals everything. It doesn't say anything about killing Jenova cells (or anything else for that matter). The Timeline of the Compilation also says that Geostigma is cured, but doesn't say anything about Jenova cells being wiped out: · Sephiroth calls for the Reunion through his remnants, and causes the remnants to obtain their ‘mother’, and uses her power to return to life. Cloud defeats Sephiroth after his advent once again. · Aerith lends her power to the people suffering from Geostigma in Edge, and personally provides for Cloud’s recovery. Geostimga is cured. Cloud returns to Tifa and the children. Source: http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii...ation-of-ffvii/ It seems to me that if Jenova cells were wiped out, it would be specified in the Timeline.
I'm not sure about it, either, but it seems to me that her cells are still viable after Sephiroth is killed.
I remember seeing something that specifically said the pool was Pure Lifestream mixed with water, but I'd have to find the source of it. I see you've posted something else, but I won't have time to respond to it until tomorrow. ![]() Aerisbolt:
I think that's a good analogy. We can see that it's dormant and that it's currently in remission. But given that nothing else has killed Jenova, I have to wonder whether the Great Gospel killed Jenova - especially when GG's not an attack spell.
Well, from the description in CoL:White, it sounds as if the Negative Lifestream is made up of hatred toward the Planet - not Jenova cells. The woman discovered that there was a growing number of spirits within the Lifestream who refused to be absorbed by it. While they were different from the man’s spirit, they rejected the Lifestream due to the same emotion. Hatred. Their feelings towards the planet were steeped in hatred, just like that man’s. This is the result of his influence reaching the surface, she thought. The woman drew closer to the souls that had just entered the Lifestream, spirits filled with hate, and tried to heal them. Beneath the surface of enmity were hidden memories. Memories from their lives as normal people. While unremarkable, they had many joyous memories as well. She released those thoughts and dissolved them into the Lifestream. ~CoL:White 2 However, we also know that Jenova cells contaminated the Lifestream after Sephiroth's defeat in VII. We were shown that after Cloud defeated Sephiroth in VII and before the hand reach scene, when we saw currents of red in the Lifestream.
I think that's fair to say. |
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| Quexinos | May 11 2010, 12:08 AM Post #39 |
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WOO HOO!
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I just wanna address this really quickly:
It's funny because when I first started off at TLS, I used to get so mad at people like Ryu, Mako and Mog because I'd say, "Well I kind of thought this happened this way..." and have my own special little theory ![]() Then they'd come along and be like, "No the ultimania/script/whatever says this so it didn't happen that way." I even once remember being told my "opinion" was wrong... in fact I'm gonna find that: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread...inion#post58368 and here's a couple others: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread...ation#post76268 http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread...ation#post59056 (I was indianaofthejones btw, yeah I know, no dupes bad Quex) Look familiar guys? ![]() That's how you feel when I post and correct you. right? It's not personal. And I realize now that what Mako said to me before wasn't personal. And it's because of him I started reading the Ultmanias and things like that. I had many "AHA" moments reading those things and I'd encourage you guys to do the same. Just because I correct you, doesn't mean I don't like you. It doesn't mean I think you're bad, it doesn't mean I don't want you to have any fun. It just means that I'm trying to help out and correct a misunderstanding. That's all. Please don't see it as anything bad or personal or anything like that. Your feelings shouldn't be hurt by this. Don't feel uncomfortable around me, I'm not a bad person. I'm not out to get anyone. I'm just an FFVII fan just like you, I just happen to have more time to read the books and what not ![]() As for the rest of your post Anastar, I'll get back to you in a second, I'm trying to find something. Mainly if it's possible to make a spirit uncorrupted when it's still in the body. |
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| aerisbolt | May 11 2010, 02:37 AM Post #40 |
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Beautiful Paradox
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:lol: I am here to help...honestly I am just a visual person and it helps me to break it down into a summary especially if I am reading a lot of in depth posts all at once. Quex, thank you so much for getting back to me, I appreciate it! I think I at least see where everyone is coming from now. Anastar, thanks for your feedback as always!
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| Quexinos | May 11 2010, 07:02 AM Post #41 |
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WOO HOO!
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Okay, I think I got all the data now. ![]() But a couple things here:
.. I'm not sure, which part was I wrong about? I'm gonna stick to my guns here and just write up my own reply instead of asking others for input because I realized the reply I had was full of contradictions. Anyways, those spirits that she healed there hadn't yet joined the negative lifestream. She doesn't even really know about Geostigma at this point. She's just doing what she knows. She's allowing them to join with the planet by releasing their positive memories. Also I think the fact that they're dead means the Jenova cells don't have the same effect on them. Dunno WTF it did to Hojo but... since Aerith didn't find anyone else made of Jenova cells in the Lifestream and didn't say anything about Zack's cells .. I'm guessing Hojo is a special case. I mean Hojo was also able to shapeshift and what not, so... he did something more to his body than just inject Jenova cells. Okay one last edit XD This is like my 20th edit as I'm getting more info from someone. Okay think of it this way too. Geostigma is basically made up of two things. Jenova cells and Sephiroth's will causing the pain and hatred. He's the one causing the hatred and anger, right? Sephiroth was, at least temporarily defeated in ACC by Cloud. If Geostigma could be cured by just losing the hatred that Sephiroth's will put there, it would have stopped right there. But 1. Cloud was cured while Sephiroth was still around, so something else must have been removed. 2. Denzel was cured after Sephiroth was defeated. So Aerith must be doing something else besides just removing what Sephiroth's will caused. Also I think there are jenova cells in the negative lifestream because, after its creating, people who came in contact with it came down with Geostigma. Anyway I know you think I'm wrong about Aerith removing the Jenova cells, but I don't think so and you'll read more about that below.
Well Jenova is braindead, so I'm not really sure if she could be called "alive." Sephiroth is the one controlling the cells. Jenova herself can't do anything anymore without someone controlling her.
The thing is, what she used at the end of ACC is different from what she used in the game. What you quoted describes what she uses in the game. If it was the same, it would have healed Cloud's wounds when he stood on the building and made him invincible. This spell was specifically designed to cure Geostigma. And I know you said that if must be the same Great Gospel but Great Gospel in the isn't said to purify spirit energy or wipe away anger and hate and such, right? So it must be a different version. As for Jenova's silver hair... It might be her hair, it might not be. I guess I can't say for sure if Sephiroth went through anything genetic, especially if the hair doesn't matter but that's why I with drew that point. Now here's the results of the research that I did ![]() Anastar, one of your arguments is that diseases like cancer can go into remission, but whatever causes it is still there right? And that maybe that's what happened with Geostigma. Well I thought of something, that's not curing cancer is it? We (unfortunately) don't have a cure for cancer yet. Putting a disease into remission is NOT the same as curing it. The sources you posted say the disease is cured, not put into remission. And Alantie, one of your arguments that Jenova cells were still around in the lifestream because Deepground wanted to use untainted individuals to create a new untainted lifestream, correct? Well Deepground used inhabitants from Edge to do so, correct? There's nobody around in edge which indicates that all of them had been taken. (the WRO obviously evacuated some people, I mean Denzel wasn't taken, but I find it hard to believe that there was some huge coincidence that they only evacuated those with Jenova cells) The inhabitants of Edge had Geostigma, (we know this from ACC) and therefore, had Jenova cells in them. How could Deepground use them as untainted individuals, if they still had Jenova cells in them? The answer must be that they didn't have Jenova cells in them anymore. If some of the people left in Edge still had Jenova cells in them, they would not be taken, but killed in the spot, like what happened in Kalm. If someone would be sacrificed, or used to make the new lifestream, while having Jenova cells in his/her body, that would taint the pure lifestream which would eventually spawn Omega, creating an impure being, which was what happened when Nero fused himself with Weiss. So it's not ACC that tells us the Jenova cells or gone, or even Case of Lifestream... it's Dirge of Cerberus. |
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| Angelalex242 | May 11 2010, 02:39 PM Post #42 |
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Keeper of the Intimacy of Aerith's soul living in Cloud
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My theory: Sephiroth will come back so long as he keeps bringing in the yen. Or the dollars. Square-enix is already a bit of a sell out company. And Sephiroth is a proven moneymaker. So I don't believe he's gone for good. |
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| Anastar | May 11 2010, 02:51 PM Post #43 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Quexinos
What's bothering people is when you say things like this:
The implication of the highlighted part is that you know more than we do. Therefore, your opinion is correct while ours is wrong because you know more. Some people took what you said to mean that. In other words, it sounds like you're saying we don't know what we're talking about because you've read more about it than we have and therefore you know more. What we're saying is that we have a different opinion than you do, and we have evidence to back up our opinion - which we have been showing you.
You said this in your first post:
You're saying that Aerith's Great Gospel destroyed the Negative Lifestream by destroying/killing the Jenova cells. The passage I quoted from CoL:White says that she destroyed it by healing the hatred and bringing back positive memories. In other words, she destroyed the Neg Lifestream by treating it as a status affect, not by killing the Jenova cells in it.
What makes you think so? They'd been corrupted by Sephiroth's will, and they refused to join the Lifestream. If they refused to join the Positive Lifestream, then they must have been part of the Neg Lifestream.
We're not talking about curing Geostigma. We're talking about how Aerith was dissipating the Neg Lifestream.
Which "cures" their hatred, in the same way as a status affect. And they don't return to the Planet. They join the positive Lifestream.
I thought those spirits had died due to Geostigma - at least some of them had. She clearly says that this is the result of Sephiroth's will reaching the surface: The woman discovered that there was a growing number of spirits within the Lifestream who refused to be absorbed by it. While they were different from the man’s spirit, they rejected the Lifestream due to the same emotion. Hatred. Their feelings towards the planet were steeped in hatred, just like that man’s. This is the result of his influence reaching the surface, she thought. ~CoL:White 2 If this is the result of Sephiroth's influence reaching the surface, isn't that talking about his stigma? When the Lifestream erupted onto the surface of the planet, the man had already surrendered his inconsequential memories to the planet. Memories from when he was a boy, of his few friends, of the battles when he was still unaware, of his life in bygone days– all these became a part of the inundation, encased around Meteor, and finally receded. At the same time, the core of his spirit, and those memories deeply related to it, moved from torrent to torrent, and traveled around the land, from city to city. When the people who were trying to escape, or those left unable to do anything but stand still, were enveloped by those streams, he decided to leave them with his stigma. ~CoL:Black 2 So isn't the stigma Sephiroth's influence reaching the surface of the Planet? Also, the description of Sephiroth's stigma here doesn't say anything about Jenova cells being involved. It says that it's the result of Sephiroth's memories moving from torrent to torrent during the inundation.
When talking about Hojo, she said she'd seen the same thing many times: Aerith gasped. The body before her was not human but was composed of Jenova's cells, a sight that she had seen many times. ~MotP If she'd seen it many times, then it's likely she's seen other souls with J cells. For example, she encountered Zack before meeting up with Hojo.
But once again, you're talking about the cure for Geostigma. I was talking about how Aerith dissipated the Neg Lifestream, which you originally said she destroyed by killing the Jenova cells in it. As for Denzel being cured after Sephiroth was defeated, Denzel was inside while the Great Gospel rain was falling (IIRC).
I never said there weren't Jenova cells in the Neg Lifestream. What I'm saying is that Aerith seems to be destroying the Neg Lifestream by healing the hatred in it rather than by killing the Jenova cells in it.
It was never said that Jenova is braindead. It was only said that Sephiroth is in control. From the FFVII Ultimania Omega: ***Sephiroth's will and Jenova's will*** (Page 53) The Sephiroth clones seen in various locations continue gathering for the Reunion. Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova. (Accompanying screenshot caption) Sephiroth's voice is heard through his "mother," Jenova, as applied through its cells in the Sephiroth Clones. Source: http://faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html How does Sephiroth being in control mean that Jenova's braindead? To me, it only means that Sephiroth's will is stronger than Jenova's. Are you braindead because your boss is in control at work? ![]()
I understand why you think the two spells are different. Yes, it should have made Cloud invincible if it was the same spell. However, it was never referenced as anything other than "Great Gospel rain", while the Omnislash used by Cloud in AC/ACC was referred to as Omnislash version 5.
Actually, if you see hatred and anger as a status effect such as Fury, then yes - GG would cure it without killing the Jenova cells. Plus, as I said before, none of Aerith's limit breaks are attack spells that kill enemies. Her Fury Brand limit breaks enables *other* party members to use their attack limit beaks, but none of Aerith's limit breaks actually attack or kill. They only cure/protect/resurrect/restore MP. Seal Evil casts Stop and Silence, but again - that's not an attack spell that's able to kill.
Okay, but polio has been "cured", but the virus still exists. People who haven't been immunized with the vaccine can still get it. Who found the cure for polio?
That proves that Great Gospel didn't kill Jenova cells in the Neg Lifestream. If the Lifestream is still tainted in DoC, then Jenova cells still exist in it.
Okay, you said yourself that individuals without Jenova cells were taken, that people with Jenova cells were killed on the spot, and that others were evacuated. How do you know that nobody in Edge was killed on the spot? If there were people with Jenova cells in Kalm, then Jenova cells hadn't been wiped out. What about in cities other than Edge and Kalm? We know that some people still have Geostigma in DoC, so once again - it hasn't been wiped out. Also, this is said at the Final Fantasy Wiki under "Negative Lifestream": Sephiroth summons the negative Lifestream over Midgar with his battle with Cloud Strife, but once he is defeated it fades. It is unknown what happened to the negative Lifestream afterwards. In Dirge of Cerberus, a series of reports, known as the Omega Reports, state that a naturally occurring deposit of similar Lifestream (termed 'terra corrupt') was found in the Crystal Cave. How such deposits are created is not stated, but was hypothesized to form a being known as Chaos. Source: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lifestr...tive_Lifestream So deposits of Lifestream similar to the Neg Lifestream occur naturally, and were found in Lucrecia's cave. Interesting. Also, I know that the FF Wiki isn't always correct, but it states that it's unknown what happened to the Neg Lifestream after Sephiroth's defeat. Angelalex
Great point! :lol:
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| Quexinos | May 11 2010, 09:44 PM Post #44 |
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WOO HOO!
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Har, I guess I can't argue with that ![]()
I can see how that makes me sound arrogant, but if I've read more about the subject, then I would know more. You've read all of Maiden, I have not. Therefore you know more about Maiden. Imagine this scenario. I say, "My opinion is that after Aerith died, she didn't speak to Zack until right before ACC." And you say, "Actually according to Maiden, she did speak to him sooner than that." That doesn't make you rude. That doesn't make you disrespectful. You're just correcting me on something I'm wrong about. Maybe it's because I'm assuming that I've read more than you and that's bothering you. But for example, I've seen many many people here say "We don't know when Cloud got Geostigma, he could have had it before he met Denzel, or when he first went to the church." The official Ultimania tells us three times that he got Geostigma after he brought Denzel back. My assumption in this case is that whoever is saying that we don't know simply hasn't read the Ultmania or seen the timeline. Now if I wanted to be disrespectful, I could be like some people and just say you're ignoring it or cherry picking quotes. THAT would be disrespectful, I really don't feel like what I'm doing is anything like that. But I have been trying really really hard to be careful about what I say so that I don't make people uncomfortable.
The difference is those people are dead. We're no longer dealing with organic material here. They have no Jenova cells to destroy. So, in this case, the only thing that Aerith had to do was undo the taint and purify the spirit energy. Okay now I finally buckled down and read all of MotP so I'd at least not have to ask questions about it every other post. I have to say I very much enjoyed it ![]() As for Hojo, he's a spirit like the other spirits in the Lifestream. They have no physical bodies. The way they look is entirely dependent on their own mental self image. Because physically, they're nothing but green ether.They can't have a physical body made of physical genetic matter (Jenova cells), if they're in the lifestream. As for not being able to return to the planet because of Jenova cells, here's the next line: "The thoughts that Hojo emitted were pure madness and it wasn't like the madness that Dyne needed to be intoxicated. Unlike President Shinra's ambitions, the end point of his goals was of certain destruction. Hojo was like a living corpse. He had become a slave to knowledge, possessed by his own madness for science, with no regard of life or his future." Wasn't it madness keeping Dyne from merging with the planet? It sounds to me like it's the madness that's keeping Hojo from doing that, not the Jenova cells. Plus, Wedge, Jesse and Biggs all have sorrow that's keeping them from merging. The theme of Maiden and people not returning to the planet seems to be based on their emotions, not what their physical body had. If it WAS what their physical body had, this would have come up when she was talking with Zack. As for not being Human, Hojo's a monster. Plain and simple. It's why he was able to shape shift and what not. Also: Leaving only his sneering laughter, the thing that was Hojo disappeared outside Aerith's conscious. And then Hojo became a sacrifice to Sephiroth with an expression dyed with joy and madness. Until the last moment before his soul was worn away, he showed no regrets or shame. Isn't that basically what merging with the planet is? I mean you die, your soul goes into the lifestream and it is merged with the lifestream and made into new energy. If that makes any sense. And I mean this is all ignoring the huge contradiction that DoC brought us by saying apparently Hojo's consciousness was uploaded and in a virtual reality that eventually possessed Weiss. I might be taking that too literally though.
You're right, I had to rethink that for a moment. My bad.
I could be wrong but... I thought that joining the positive lifestream was the same thing as returning to the planet. Or at least it's a step in the right direction. Like I said, I thought it was you die, your soul goes into the lifestream and eventually merges or joins with it. I think people are supposed to merge right away but sometimes things like guilt or what not keeps you from doing so.
I would imagine he could only leave his stigma on those who had Jenova cells though.
I edited my post like 20 times yesterday trying to reword stuff, so I think it's out of order, sorry XD
Right but my point is, there are two parts to Geostigma. One is the Jenova cells, and the other is the misery and hatred that taints the spirit, which is caused by Sephiroth's will. If it was just the hatred and misery that needed to be healed, that could be taken care of by defeating Sephroth. If Sephiroth's will is no longer there, the hold he has on the spirits will be gone too. We know that, at least temporarily, Sephiroth's will wasn't there, because Aerith's rain falls after his defeat. It's the same thing as what happened in FFVII. Sephiroth's will was preventing her from performing her magic, so once he was defeated, his will was gone. If all that needed to be done to cure Geostigma was to get rid of the hatred in the spirit, defeating Sephiroth should have taken care of that because when he was defeated, so was his will.
Well if she's not, I figured she'd be doing more to try to get her revenge and what not.
Well now this is a whole nother story here ![]()
Well it can still be a form of Great Gospel, right? Just not exactly the same.
Fair enough.
Well this gets into a "Is Sephiroth still around" thing that I don't think we need to go through again.
We know nobody in Edge was killed on the spot because there's no dead bodies lying around in Edge. Some 500 people were taken. In Kalm, the adults were murdered and their bodies just left lying around. There were no bodies lying around in Edge, which means DeepGround took everyone. They only wanted those without Jenova cells, so if they took everyone from Edge, that means they didn't have Jenova cells. And I never said Geostigma or Jenova cells were completely wiped out. I'm pretty sure I've said only those touched by Aerith's rain were effected. That's my basic point here
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| Anastar | May 12 2010, 05:18 PM Post #45 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Yes, you're assuming that you've read more and therefore know more than we do. I've read the entire Ultimania several times - at least all the available translations - as well as the Timeline and the Reunion Files (when it was still available online). I've also read all the Novella's. But - as we've seen in this thread - I still disagree with you, and will quote different sources than you use to make points. In fact, I think Alantie made several very good points in her thread, but you just dismissed them because you assume that she's not well read. Rather presumptuous, if you ask me. ![]()
I didn't remember the Ultimania or Timeline saying that, but I've read them both several times. There's a lot of info and detail on the Compilation. Some people have better memories than others. Some people remember different details. Did you get 100% on every test you took? If not, then you didn't remember every detail of everything that you read.
You're assuming that Jenova cells in dead people are no longer viable, and that's a point I've been trying to make. I think Jenova cells *are* still viable in dead people. Why are you arguing that Aerith's Great Gospel destroyed the Jenova cells in the Negative Lifestream if you think that the Jenova cells in dead people are also dead? The Jenova cells in the Neg Lifestream wouldn't *have* to be killed if they were already dead. How would Sephiroth be able to use the Jenova cells in the Neg Lifestream to convey his will if the J cells in the Neg Lifestream are dead?
Never said they had a physical body. However, I'm saying that, from what Aerith says about the J cells in Hojo, they appear to be physical to her. Is that only because of Hojo's self image, or are they still viable? After all, she knows that Hojo's physical appearance is nothing but a mental image, so why wouldn't she know if his J cells are nothing but a mental image?
No, it was guilt keeping Dyne from merging with the Planet, since that's what Aerith healed in him. The line you bolded says that Hojo's madness wasn't like what intoxicated Dyne.
But Zack is sane. Hojo's not. Zack also had a strong enough will not to be influenced by Jenova's will, which is why he made it into SOLDIER. In fact, that's probably why Zack isn't a part of the Neg Lifestream despite having Jenova cells.
Okay, you know I've read Maiden, but I didn't remember that part of it. Does that mean I didn't read it? ![]() What's confusing me is that Hojo was already dead, but it says here that he dies to support Sephiroth. Wasn't he already dead when Aerith first encountered his spirit? Otherwise, why would his spirit appear in the Lifestream?You also have to remember that Zack died before FFVII, yet his image is still visible to Aerith. Therefore, his consciousness is still intact. Is this because of his strong will, or is it because of his Jenova cells? At any rate, what I take from the passage you quoted is that Hojo's a "sacrifice to Sephiroth" and it says that he "dies to support Sephiroth" a couple of lines later - in other words, Hojo becomes part of the Negative Lifestream. But yes, the passage you quoted sounds as if Hojo merges with the Lifestream. It seems strange that Aerith would say he'd never merge with the Planet if he does merge with the Planet. The only explanation I can think of is that you don't call it "merging with the Planet" unless your spirit merges with the Positive Lifestream. If Hojo merges with the Negative Lifestream to support Sephiroth, then he's not actually merging with the Planet.
Eh, I don't see that as a contradiction - just a stretch. :lol: If Hojo's consciousness was digitally recorded, then why wouldn't it still exist virtually? But like I say, I do think that's a stretch.
According to Bugenhagen, the spirit returns to the Planet and merges with the other spirits to produce a swell called the Lifestream. According to MotP, the consciousness of people is somewhat different from the soul. As long as your consciousness exists, then your soul won't merge with the Planet because you retain your own identity. There seem to be different reasons for the consciousness retaining its identity, including feelings like guilt. However, that can't be the only reason, since Aerith asks the consciousness of Cetra to help her get rid of the hatred in CoL:White. The consciousness of Cetra were still guarding the black materia in the Temple of Ancients, too. Also, the consciousness of the Cetra directed Aerith to the Forgotten City. So the consciousness of Cetra can last for over 2000 years. It seems the consciousness of Cetra can retain their identity longer than humans, and I doubt it's because they all feel guilty. :lol:
Okay, that seems likely. However, the "inundation" is referring to the Lifestream washing over the Planet, isn't it? Isn't that when some people were contaminated by Jenova cells, since the Lifestream was tainted? So did getting contaminated by the stigma and by J cells happen simultaneously, or what?
Hold on - you're contradicting yourself here. You say that the misery and hatred was caused by Sephiroth's will. That happened after his defeat in FFVII, when he was already dead. Therefore, Sephiroth's will continues to exist after he's dead. Same with Aerith's will. How else did she get the Lifestream to flood the Planet if she has no will after she's dead? I'd think she'd need to do that with the strength of her will.
But once again, his will doesn't disappear after he dies. If it did, then the misery and hatred that tainted the spirits couldn't have been caused by his will. It also says in CoL:White that Sephiroth's will continues to exist after he dies: The woman had sensed a different presence within the Lifestream cycling around the planet. It was the vehemence of a strong will, one that would never join with the planet. She knew this consciousness. It was the man who had taken her life. A merciless spirit hidden behind a beauteous wall. That spirit was now operating from within the Lifestream. ~CoL:White Can I assume that you didn't read Case of Lifestream because you didn't remember that? ![]()
Why does she need to if Sephiroth's doing it for her? I would think that his will is compatible with hers. Besides, being entrapped in a geological stratum must have made it impossible for Jenova to use her magic, to exert her will, or to influence people's minds. Otherwise, the Cetra wouldn't have bothered to put her in there.
Point is - being under someone's control doesn't mean that you're braindead. ![]()
Then why doesn't SE refer to it as Great Gospel version 4 or something like that?
Yay! I've only said that for about 5 posts. ![]()
I thought that was the whole reason we were discussing this? If the Lifestream is still tainted in DoC, then Great Gospel didn't purify the Lifestream. Was the Lifestream purified in DoC? As I understand it, it wasn't. Souls without Jenova cells were sacrificed in order to purify the Lifestream to the point that Omega would surface. However, did that mean the whole Lifestream was untainted by the end of DoC? Hojo said that 500 souls needed to be sacrificed in order for Omega to appear. According to Aerith in MotP, the Lifestream is made up of millions of souls.
All dead bodies in FF VII decompose immediately after death (except for Aerith), so why would you expect to see any?
Then why wouldn't the Neg Lifestream and Sephiroth still exist? |
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Otherwise, why would his spirit appear in the Lifestream?
12:54 AM Jul 11