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Geostigma
Topic Started: May 4 2010, 11:03 PM (2,048 Views)
Quexinos
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WOO HOO!
Nomura's a liar, got it. What about Nojima? Can we trust him? That Kitase guy? He looks kinda suspicious...

seriously, what on earth is the point of providing sources to prove my point if you guys are just going to say, "Well I don't think we can trust those guys."? They made the games and the movie... they know what they're talking about. Honestly you say "Well I'm confused about this..." and "This doesn't make sense." and then when someone explains it and provides sources you go, "Nah, we can't take their words for it." and continue to remain confused.

Granted Nomura's been vague on stuff in the past, (and even lied to not spoil, but not AFTER the material has come out) if he says something three times, after the material has been released, it's reliable.
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Quexinos
 
The only individual who went through anything genetic is Sephiroth.  If Cloud was made up of Jenova now he'd be able to shape shift and what not.  Think about things like steroids, they don't genetically alter you or become part of you,  but they do give your body a boost in physical skills.

Hold on. Where was it said that Seph went through genetic changes? :unsure: I think he did, but I'm just wondering where that was specified. If you remember this quote from the Final Fantasy Ultimania Omega Translations at IGN, it says only that Jenova cells became a part of Sephiroth's growth:

... While in Lucrecia's womb, Jenova's cells became part of Sephiroth's growth. While he's the biological son of Hojo and Lucrecia, with regards to his role in the project as an unnatural product of "Jenova of the Ancients," one could say that he is "the son of Jenova." Simultaneously, he was the first to have the role of a SOLDIER (-->P.217). However, mass production of SOLDIERs required adults of sound mind and body who could be injected with Jenova's cells and exposed to mako, as this simplification of the process used on Sephiroth would result in vast differences from how their bodies had been before.

It also says that the injections of Jenova cells and exposure to Mako used on SOLDIERs was a simplification of the process used on Sephiroth. Therefore, the injections would accomplish essentially the same thing, wouldn't they?

Quexinos
 
You're thinking about it too much.  That's along the lines of "Why didn't Cloud use a phoenix down on Aerith?"  That wouldn't have made a good story

Okay, true. However, it also makes you wonder why Aerith didn't use Great Gospel on Sephy at the Temple of Ancients after learning that he was going to cast Meteor? :lol: For another thing, why didn't Aerith use Great Gospel before AC/ACC?

You also have to wonder about things such as Hojo's Jenova cells. In Maiden of the Planet, it says that Hojo will never be able to return to the Planet because of the Jenova cells in him:

Hojo wrapped his fingers on the lab coat he was wrapped in and tore it off vigorously. The image of his lab coat was torn into thousands of pieces, flying away wildly like feathers, exposing the body of flesh that was hidden underneath.

"...!"

Aerith gasped. The body before her was not human but was composed of Jenova's cells, a sight that she had seen many times. Hojo had grown tired of experimenting on the bodies of others and had turned himself into a subject for his corrupted experiments.

"Heeheehee. In other words, I'm no different from a sample now. Even you never imagined that had changed this much, did you?"

"What have you done... Have you given up your humanity, Professor Hojo? You've violated your soul so greatly you'll never be able to return to the Planet..."


So it seems to me the Jenova cells in Hojo are still "alive", despite his death. We have to assume the same is true of other SOLDIERs liks Zack who have died. What of those Jenova cells? Were they killed by Great Gospel? Were Sephiroth's Jenova cells killed off by Great Gospel, or are his J cells still "alive" in the Lifestream? And what about Genesis?

I'm just saying this because you seem ready to say that ALL Jenova cells were killed off by Great Gospel, but I have to wonder whether they were.

Quex
 
As for not using Great Gospel... now that I think about it, Aerith was the one who created it. It's hers. So they can't use an ability they don't have yet. Plus like I said before, the other Cetra probably all helped with it, having improved their magic after thousands of years.

And Meteorain is Zack's, but Cloud had it. How do you know that Aerith didn't get it from other Cetra?

Quexinos
 
Therefore, the only way to get rid of it is to get rid of the cells.

And I'm saying that some Jenova cells could still exist - we don't know for sure that they don't. We could look at this like cancer, too. Cancerous cells can be removed or killed by radiation, but that doesn't always get rid of the disease. It can go into remission and come back, sometimes by affecting another part of the body.

It just seems too simplistic to me to think that Aerith killed off all Jenova cells with Great Gospel. If she was able to do that, then why didn't she use it before? She couldn't use it after her death in FFVII coz her will was being blocked by Sephiroth. However, she had Great Gospel by the Temple of Ancients in FFVII. She also had it and was able to use it between FFVII and AC/ACC. Now she uses it, and all J cells which have threatened the Planet for 2000 years are gone - but there was no way to get rid of those cells before? I dunno... just seems way too simplistic to me.

For that matter, you also have to wonder why the Cetra would have Aerith bother casting Holy if she could just get rid of Sephy and Jenova by casting Great Gospel. This puts a big, fat loophole in the story for me - so I have to wonder if that's what the creators really intended. Also, I have to wonder if the creators have no intention of Jenova cells returning in any future Compilation installment. Would they really intend that Jenova and Sephiroth be unable to affect Cloud or the Planet in any way?

Quexinos
 
Nomura's a liar, got it. What about Nojima? Can we trust him? That Kitase guy? He looks kinda suspicious...

seriously, what on earth is the point of providing sources to prove my point if you guys are just going to say, "Well I don't think we can trust those guys."? They made the games and the movie... they know what they're talking about. Honestly you say "Well I'm confused about this..." and "This doesn't make sense." and then when someone explains it and provides sources you go, "Nah, we can't take their words for it." and continue to remain confused.

Oh, come on... don't be an ass. :P

HD didn't say that Nomura's a liar. She said there was indication that Cloud wasn't truly happy before the end of AC/ACC, and I have to agree. There's plenty of indication that he wasn't fully happy before AC/ACC, such as this picture:

Posted Image

There's plenty of references to Cloud's guilt and pain and so forth in different passages. Cloud even told Tifa in CoT that his problem couldn't be solved, because you can't bring back the dead. How does that indicate that he's fully happy? Marlene also told Barret on the phone that Cloud and Tifa weren't getting along well. How does that indicate that Cloud's happy?

Yes, the creators have said certain things, but they've also said other things that contradict what you believe.
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Quexinos
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Hold on. Where was it said that Seph went through genetic changes?

Well he had the silver hair didn't he? He got that from Jenova so obviously some genetic changes were undergo. And he was injected when he was nothing more than a clump of cells so they cells became part of him as he grew in her womb.

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It also says that the injections of Jenova cells and exposure to Mako used on SOLDIERs was a simplification of the process used on Sephiroth. Therefore, the injections would accomplish essentially the same thing, wouldn't they?

But they didn't exactly, Sephiroth was a lot stronger than them because the cells became a part of him, where as in other cases, the cells just made people mildly stronger.

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Okay, true. However, it also makes you wonder why Aerith didn't use Great Gospel on Sephy at the Temple of Ancients after learning that he was going to cast Meteor? laugh.gif For another thing, why didn't Aerith use Great Gospel before AC/ACC?

Magic can improve over time. It's possible she didn't have that kind of power before, but now, with the help of all the cetra, she does.

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So it seems to me the Jenova cells in Hojo are still "alive", despite his death. We have to assume the same is true of other SOLDIERs liks Zack who have died. What of those Jenova cells? Were they killed by Great Gospel? Were Sephiroth's Jenova cells killed off by Great Gospel, or are his J cells still "alive" in the Lifestream? And what about Genesis?

Maiden takes place before ACC, doesn't it? Great Gospel hasn't happened yet so he's alive due to the fact that Great Gospel hasn't happened yet.

And remember that Jenova is completely brain dead. Sephiroth is the one controlling what those cells do and he was still around in Maiden. Without Sephiroth, those Jenova cells are pretty much worthless. And Genesis doesn't have Jenova cells in him. He had Jenova genetics mapped to him or something like that. He doesn't have direct cells.

Q2-3: What are the crucial differences in the experimental processes for those born from Project S and those born from Project G?
A2-3: Put simply, it’s a difference between when the Jenova cells were injected into the body, and the concentration and purity of the Jenova cells.
Sephiroth was implanted with Jenova cells at the embryonic stage. Angeal was born from an ovum from Gillian, who has Jenova cells, and developed in her womb. Genesis was born from a fertilized egg cell unrelated to Jenova, and at the embryonic stage was implanted with genes from Gillian, who has Jenova cells.
In other words, because Sephiroth received Jenova cells with a high level of purity at an early stage of development, he ends up inheriting Jenova’s abilities the best.


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I'm just saying this because you seem ready to say that ALL Jenova cells were killed off by Great Gospel, but I have to wonder whether they were.

All of the ones that were affected by the Great Gospel rain, yes.

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And Meteorain is Zack's, but Cloud had it. How do you know that Aerith didn't get it from other Cetra?

Because they would have used it to kill Jenova, as you said. I'm not saying they didn't have a form of it, but Aeriths' powerful version of it, they didn't have.

If it took an entire race of people to defeat jenova when some terrorists/bums/out of work mechanics/dog did it 2000 years later I wouldn't trust them to have known about great gospel either :P

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And I'm saying that some Jenova cells could still exist - we don't know for sure that they don't. We could look at this like cancer, too. Cancerous cells can be removed or killed by radiation, but that doesn't always get rid of the disease. It can go into remission and come back, sometimes by affecting another part of the body.

Again I'm not sure what the point of Aerith's Great Gospel would even be then. It seems almost useless to me if she can't even destroy what's causing the disease. Plus the fact that no one who had the stigma before, had it cured, has ever reported it returning as far as we know.

And even if this was the case you're forgetting something important here. That's that Sephiroth was the one at the helm of Geostigma. Without Sephiroth, Geostigma can't come back. Sephiroth was destroyed at the end of FFVII AC: Now I know what you're thinking, "But Quex, how do you know?"

I know because he isn't trying to make himself known anymore, and he isn't controlling those who DO still have Geostigma or ... doing anything. This is Sephiroth, if he had even an ounce of existence left, we'd know it.

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It just seems too simplistic to me to think that Aerith killed off all Jenova cells with Great Gospel. If she was able to do that, then why didn't she use it before? She couldn't use it after her death in FFVII coz her will was being blocked by Sephiroth. However, she had Great Gospel by the Temple of Ancients in FFVII. She also had it and was able to use it between FFVII and AC/ACC. Now she uses it, and all J cells which have threatened the Planet for 2000 years are gone - but there was no way to get rid of those cells before? I dunno... just seems way too simplistic to me.

Think of it this way. Aerith starts off with an attack that heals your party. Then she acquires one that heals status ailments. Then she has one that makes the party invincible... THEN she gets Great Gospel. This shows her magic improving over time. It's not that she didn't use Great Gospel, it's that Great Gospel was unable to destroy jenova cells before ACC.

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Also, I have to wonder if the creators have no intention of Jenova cells returning in any future Compilation installment. Would they really intend that Jenova and Sephiroth be unable to affect Cloud or the Planet in any way?

Well I for one would lose a lot of respect for them if they brought Seph back. He's dead, keep him that way. Please.

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Oh, come on... don't be an ass.

Sorry it's just annoying to provide a source on something only to have someone say "We can't trust that."

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HD didn't say that Nomura's a liar. She said there was indication that Cloud wasn't truly happy before the end of AC/ACC, and I have to agree

I'm not talking about ACC. I'm talking about the three times he said "The more happy Cloud is, the more troubled by his past he is."

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Yes, the creators have said certain things, but they've also said other things that contradict what you believe.

I'll admit the compilation has contradicted itself on more than one occasion, but I've never know the creator statements in regards to Cloud's life to contradict one another. If they do, I re evaluate, I say "Okay.. what am I missing? What did I get wrong?"

Case in point. What do you say about Clotis who say "koibito" in CoLW is a contradiction because Square has only said that Aerith loves Zack?

You would say they missed something, didn't you? Or that they don't get it. That's what I do, I say "Okay, if this is such a statement, Aerith must love Cloud. She must still love Zack but she loves Cloud more."

Then there's no contradiction. And... all is well with the world or some such.
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Hades' Daughter
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Quex:
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Nomura's a liar, got it. What about Nojima? Can we trust him? That Kitase guy? He looks kinda suspicious...


As Anastar said, I never claimed anyone was a liar. Contradictions abound in the compilation.

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seriously, what on earth is the point of providing sources to prove my point if you guys are just going to say, "Well I don't think we can trust those guys."? They made the games and the movie... they know what they're talking about. Honestly you say "Well I'm confused about this..." and "This doesn't make sense." and then when someone explains it and provides sources you go, "Nah, we can't take their words for it." and continue to remain confused.


Okay, so if you want to take everything they say at face value, there would be no LTD then. Nomura has stated several times throughout the years that he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. The argument that Cloud and Tifa ARE in a relationship is nulled because the creator has said he doesn't know. If they were in one, he would know of it. Are people saying Nomura is a liar?

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Case in point. What do you say about Clotis who say "koibito" in CoLW is a contradiction because Square has only said that Aerith loves Zack?

You would say they missed something, didn't you? Or that they don't get it. That's what I do, I say "Okay, if this is such a statement, Aerith must love Cloud. She must still love Zack but she loves Cloud more."


While Aerith and Zack were in a romantic type relationship, I believe SE actually said that Aerith and Zack were too young for it to be love. On the other hand, they made Aerith state that Cloud was her koibito. And I don't see how Aerith would *still* love Zack if she stated that it was all in the past. I don't get the whole 'in denial' argument. It holds no water as far as I'm concerned. That can easily be said of any character at any given point in the game.

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I'm not talking about ACC. I'm talking about the three times he said "The more happy Cloud is, the more troubled by his past he is."


How does this prove he was fully happy? As I've said, he *wants* to be happy and tried to be happy but it's clear he was being affected by guilt and grief. A person who's perfectly happy and content doesn't run away. What was the point of Cloud finally finding his Promised Land(his place of supreme happiness) at the very end of the movie if he'd already acheived that earlier? Tifa explained in CoT that Cloud had been in great pain about not being able to protect Aerith but was *on the verge* of overcoming it. "On the verge" means he never fully got over it, and revisiting the place where he and Aerith got separated made sorrow and regret tear at his heart again. To me, there's no way Cloud had been *fully* happy. He doesn't reach that point until the very end of the movie.

Even if you completely disagree with my point above and believe Cloud had been fully happy after the end of the game, I *also* said that we don't know at what point it was that Cloud contracted the Geostigma. It could very well have been after he revisited Aerith's grave. Sorry and regret does not add up to being happy. Therefore, getting back to my original point, it's pretty possible one's mental state of mind could be a key component to the stigma as Alantie explained it.
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Shrouded
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seriously, what on earth is the point of providing sources to prove my point if you guys are just going to say, "Well I don't think we can trust those guys."? They made the games and the movie... they know what they're talking about. Honestly you say "Well I'm confused about this..." and "This doesn't make sense." and then when someone explains it and provides sources you go, "Nah, we can't take their words for it." and continue to remain confused.


The only source that I've only seen prior to this from you Quex is the one at CC:

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The cells from Jenova used in the Jenova Project and SOLDIER surgical procedures. Those who have been injected with these cells undergo physiological changes such as improvement of their physical abilities and partially receiving Jenova’s abilities. However, mentally weak people are unable to withstand Jenova’s will, and it sometimes brings about mental abnormalities.


I don't exactly know what sources you're talking about. The main point is that you believe Aerith takes out the jenova cells thus curing geostigma:

I see a lot of people say here that Great Gospel didn't get rid of Jenova cells. I guess I'm a little confused then.. what do you think it did to Cloud exactly? Vincent says Geostigma is the body fighting off alien matter... how can you cure a disease without removing the cause? Yes people in DoC still had it but that's because they were not touched by Aerith's Great Gospel rain. They need to go to the pool to get cured.---QUex

Granted let's assume that people with jenova cells gets geostigma. Do you mean to tell me that everyone has jenova cells in them? Children? There's jenova cells in them as well? Your source only provides information on people who got injected with J.Cells. It doesn't exactly clarify if children and pretty much a whole chunk of the planet's population was injected with j.cells in order to get geostigma.

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Sorry it's just annoying to provide a source on something only to have someone say "We can't trust that."


No one really said that Quex, from what I can tell, your sources is vague though. Would it be alright if Aly and co help you clarify it?

Edit:

Just found out from wiki that J.Cells infected everyone through the meteor event but didn't exactly gave out a source. Can anyone verify that?
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
I'm really in a rush as I write this, so sorry if I'm not very thorough.

Quexinos
 
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Hold on. Where was it said that Seph went through genetic changes?

Well he had the silver hair didn't he? He got that from Jenova so obviously some genetic changes were undergo. And he was injected when he was nothing more than a clump of cells so they cells became part of him as he grew in her womb.

You didn't answer my question. I asked where it was stated. I'd also like to know where it was stated that the Great Gospel rain killed Jenova cells.

Quex
 
But they didn't exactly, Sephiroth was a lot stronger than them because the cells became a part of him, where as in other cases, the cells just made people mildly stronger.

If the cells just made SOLDIERs "mildly" stronger, then why is Cloud able to defeat Sephiroth in battle? It seems to me that Cloud is almost equivalent to Sephiroth in strength.

Quex
 
Magic can improve over time.  It's possible she didn't have that kind of power before, but now, with the help of all the cetra, she does.

Sounds like you're guessing to me. :P So we don't really know, do we?

Quex
 
Maiden takes place before ACC, doesn't it?  Great Gospel hasn't happened yet so he's alive due to the fact that Great Gospel hasn't happened yet.

Not the point. I was saying that the Jenova cells in Hojo, Zack, and other dead SOLDIERs are still viable in the Lifestream. Did the Great Gospel rain kill those Jenova cells, too, or do they still exist?

Quex
 
And remember that Jenova is completely brain dead.  Sephiroth is the one controlling what those cells do and he was still around in Maiden.  Without Sephiroth, those Jenova cells are pretty much worthless.  And Genesis doesn't have Jenova cells in him.  He had Jenova genetics mapped to him or something like that.  He doesn't have direct cells.

Q2-3: What are the crucial differences in the experimental processes for those born from Project S and those born from Project G?
A2-3: Put simply, it’s a difference between when the Jenova cells were injected into the body, and the concentration and purity of the Jenova cells.
Sephiroth was implanted with Jenova cells at the embryonic stage. Angeal was born from an ovum from Gillian, who has Jenova cells, and developed in her womb. Genesis was born from a fertilized egg cell unrelated to Jenova, and at the embryonic stage was implanted with genes from Gillian, who has Jenova cells.
In other words, because Sephiroth received Jenova cells with a high level of purity at an early stage of development, he ends up inheriting Jenova’s abilities the best.

And again, my point is - what happened to the Jenova cells in others like Hojo, Zack, Angeal, etc.? Do they still exist, or did the Great Gospel rain kill those J cells, too?

Quex
 
All of the ones that were affected by the Great Gospel rain, yes.

But it seems to me that not all were affected by the Great Gospel rain. Therefore, some cells still exist.

Quex
 
Because they would have used it to kill Jenova, as you said.  I'm not saying they didn't have a form of it, but Aeriths' powerful version of it, they didn't have.

If it took an entire race of people to defeat jenova when some terrorists/bums/out of work mechanics/dog did it 2000 years later I wouldn't trust them to have known about great gospel either :P

And once again, it seems like a big, fat loophole in the story to me - especially if the Cetra had a form of Great Gospel.

Quex
 
Again I'm not sure what the point of Aerith's Great Gospel would even be then.   It seems almost useless to me if she can't even destroy what's causing the disease.  Plus the fact that no one who had the stigma before, had it cured, has ever reported it returning as far as we know.

I thought the point of it was to cure Geostigma. To me, that seems more likely than saying she used a spell to kill Jenova that could have been used a long time ago, but wasn't because she forgot or something.

Quex
 
And even if this was the case you're forgetting something important here.  That's that Sephiroth was the one at the helm  of Geostigma.  Without Sephiroth, Geostigma can't come back.  Sephiroth was destroyed at the end of FFVII AC:  Now I know what you're thinking, "But Quex, how do you know?"

I know because he isn't trying to make himself known anymore, and he isn't controlling those who DO still have Geostigma or ... doing anything.  This is Sephiroth, if he had even an ounce of existence left, we'd know it.

And he wasn't trying to make himself known between FFVII and AC/ACC, either, was he? *as far as we knew* Turns out, he was - but we didn't learn that til later.

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Think of it this way.  Aerith starts off with an attack that heals your party.  Then she acquires one that heals status ailments.   Then she has one that makes the party invincible... THEN she gets Great Gospel. This shows her magic improving over time.  It's not that she didn't use Great Gospel, it's that Great Gospel was unable to destroy jenova cells before ACC.

So the Great Gospel she has in ACC is different than the Great Gospel she had in FFVII? Her spells improve while she's dead? That means that the spells of the other Cetra improved, too, so they probably had something similar to Great Gospel. That also makes me wonder why one of the dead Cetra didn't cast Holy instead of making Aerith do it. For that matter, I still have to wonder why Aerith didn't just use Great Gospel to kill Jenova and Sephiroth before he cast Meteor.

Quex
 
Well I for one would lose a lot of respect for them if they brought Seph back.  He's dead, keep him that way.  Please.

I would lose a lot of respect for them if they *didn't* bring Sephy and Jenova back for the final installment of the Compilation. Too much of the story is tied up with Sephy and Jenova to just leave them out of it.

Quex
 
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Oh, come on... don't be an ass.

Sorry it's just annoying to provide a source on something only to have someone say "We can't trust that."

Okay, but come on... you know damn well that we disagree with you about stuff. That's what you get for hanging out at a CloudxAerith forum where we see things very differently than you. :P If you intend to hang around here, then you better expect for people to disagree with you.

Quex
 
I'm not talking about ACC. I'm talking about the three times he said "The more happy Cloud is, the more troubled by his past he is."

And we're talking about the evidence in CoT and AC/ACC which indicates that Cloud *wasn't* happy.

Quex
 
I'll admit the compilation has contradicted itself on more than one occasion, but I've never know the creator statements in regards to Cloud's life to contradict one another.  If they do, I re evaluate, I say "Okay.. what am I missing?  What did I get wrong?"

Okay, case in point - Marlene tells Barret in CoT that Cloud and Tifa weren't getting along. Doesn't that indicate that Cloud's not happy? The following passages from CoT would suggest the same thing:

“Why did he leave?”
I didn’t know. Maybe all kinds of problems had cropped up.

“So the problem was resolved?” Tifa asked.
“Which problem?” Cloud responded.
“Your problem.”
“Oh…”
Cloud thought about it.
“It’s ok if you don’t want to tell me.”
“I can’t really explain it well…” Cloud warned before starting to talk. “The problem isn’t resolved. Well, I never tried resolving it for a long time, I think. You can’t retrieve lost lives.”

After Cloud started his delivery service, their “family” life changed greatly. It wasn’t too good.


That's just a few passages, but it seems pretty clear to me that things weren't going well and that therefore, Cloud isn't that happy. And those passages are also from an official source.

*runs outta here*
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Shiva
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I don't think Sephiroth is gone for good, sorry. He is way too tied in with the plot, as is Jenova. Also, Sephy said this in Case of Lifestream: Black:

Cloud was the one who had twice sent the man into the Lifestream. The man knew that if one could hold onto some core of their spirit, then one could remain a separate entity, independent from the planet’s system. Cloud. The man decided to make Cloud that core. And he wanted to let Cloud know of that. I’m still thinking of you. And I’ll show you the proof of that as well.

To me, this shows that Sephiroth has the intention of making Cloud the core of his being in order to remain a separate entity and therefore retain his individuality in the Lifestream.

* Then, we have Sephiroth saying that he'll never be a memory at the end of AC/ACC.

*We also know that Jenova cells can't be killed by Great Gospel, since Jenova's head and Sephiroth floated in the Lifestream from Mt. Nibel to the Northern Crater. The Lifestream didn't kill either of them at that time, so why would Great Gospel (isn't it Lifestream mixed with water?) kill them now?

* How would Cloud have the strength to fight Sephiroth after being cured of Geostigma if it killed off his Jenova cells?

* Geostigma is still present in DoC, although dormant.

* MoTP says that Jenova cells can't return to the Planet:

Hojo wrapped his fingers on the lab coat he was wrapped in and tore it off vigorously. The image of his lab coat was torn into thousands of pieces, flying away wildly like feathers, exposing the body of flesh that was hidden underneath.

"...!"

Aerith gasped. The body before her was not human but was composed of Jenova's cells, a sight that she had seen many times. Hojo had grown tired of experimenting on the bodies of others and had turned himself into a subject for his corrupted experiments.

"Heeheehee. In other words, I'm no different from a sample now. Even you never imagined that had changed this much, did you?"

"What have you done... Have you given up your humanity, Professor Hojo? You've violated your soul so greatly you'll never be able to return to the Planet..."


Also, from translations of the FFVII UO and RF at IGN:

At one point in the English text, Nojima refers to Sephiroth's motivation largely being revenge against Cloud because of how badly his pride was hurt when Cloud turned the tables on him in the Mt. Nibel mako reactor. More notably, it says that this defeat was made all the worse because Cloud was a "rookie SOLDIER" at the time. This, of course, is a mistake, as Cloud was never in SOLDIER, and the Japanese text there doesn't say "SOLDIER." At least not in reference to the elite squad, which is always written in katakana. It uses the kanji for "rookie soldier," meaning a regular private in the army.

The translator says it's in the English text, but then he talks about the katakana used, so I'm not sure where it is. At any rate, if revenge was Sephiroth's main motivation, he didn't get it in AC/C. All the more reason for him to come back.

Sephiroth also says this in CoL:Black:

When the people who were trying to escape, or those left unable to do anything but stand still, were enveloped by those streams, he decided to leave them with his stigma. If Cloud noticed that stigma, the man was certain that he would never disappear. As long as Cloud remembers me, I can continue to exist. Within the Lifestream, and on the surface. Even if my spirit disseminates, even if just one fragment of a memory courses around the planet, in the end I can count on Cloud’s consciousness to bring me back, the man thought.

So Seph has no intention of disappearing.
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Quexinos
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WOO HOO!
haha, holy shit you guys :D

I am going to reply to everyone but I gtg to work now, I just wanted to say a couple things.

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Just found out from wiki that J.Cells infected everyone through the meteor event but didn't exactly gave out a source. Can anyone verify that?

First off, welcome back Shroudy, haven't seen you in a while. Second, I believe the sources are the "cases of." Particularly Case of Yuffie says it well.

Also I think we did the whole "Is Cloud happy" thing before and I really don't want to get into it again so if it's okay, I don't really want to start that up again and I kind of wish I hadn't. It didn't get us anyway before so.. but I'll get to the rest of this stuff when I get back.
__________________

Shroud:
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No one really said that Quex, from what I can tell, your sources is vague though. Would it be alright if Aly and co help you clarify it?

Well I can post where they were from if you want that, but I don't see the point as we've all seen them before and know they exist.

HD:

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Okay, so if you want to take everything they say at face value, there would be no LTD then. Nomura has stated several times throughout the years that he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. The argument that Cloud and Tifa ARE in a relationship is nulled because the creator has said he doesn't know. If they were in one, he would know of it. Are people saying Nomura is a liar?


First off I'm not sure if I should respond to this as it's about the LT but I wanted to say a couple things.

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Nomura say he didn't know if they were in a relationship just once? I'm always seeing this "Many times throughout the years" but I've yet only been able to find one source on it. But you're free to show me others if they are out there. It'd probably make for better discussion on some other forums as well.

2. It also doesn't mean he can't change his mind later on and (something I bring up a lot that people tend to ignore) is that, he actually IS a notorious liar. He also once said Kairi and Namine weren't related in any way as not to spoil people but there's a difference between saying something to not spoil anyone and explaining what's going on after a story has come out. Plus not just Nomura has said it. Nojima and other places have said it as well, hence my reaction about "Well can we trust these guys?"

3. Nomrua isn't the only one involved in this stuff. Nojima and Kitase are also involved.

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While Aerith and Zack were in a romantic type relationship, I believe SE actually said that Aerith and Zack were too young for it to be love. On the other hand, they made Aerith state that Cloud was her koibito. And I don't see how Aerith would *still* love Zack if she stated that it was all in the past. I don't get the whole 'in denial' argument. It holds no water as far as I'm concerned. That can easily be said of any character at any given point in the game.

True, which is another reason koibito isn't a contradiction.

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How does this prove he was fully happy?

If the creators flat out saying on three separate occasions that Cloud was happy at the start of CoT, and you don't believe him, I don't know what to tell you. CoT seemed pretty clear cut to me and it seems to follow EXACTLY what they have told us. Cloud was happy at first, then he started to feel regret and sorrow. CoT follows this pattern. I want to make something clear here though since I think I'm being misunderstood. I'm not saying he was super duper happy throughout the whole thing BUT IN THE BEGINNING OF CASE OF TIFA CLOUD WAS HAPPY AND PART WAY THROUGH THE STORY THE DEPRESSION STARTED IN! Yes he was depressed later, I am not in any size shape or form denying that Cloud was very depressed and very regretful during CoT. But at the very beginning he was happy. Which follows what they said EXACTLY, "The happier Cloud is, the more he begins to regret his past." The rest of what you posted was what happened AFTER Cloud was depressed so I'm not going to argue with that since I completely agree that in CoT Cloud was very depressed at times.

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Therefore, getting back to my original point, it's pretty possible one's mental state of mind could be a key component to the stigma as Alantie explained it.

I never said it wasn't. I said it might not ALWAYS be the case, but there are other factors as well.

Anastar:
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You didn't answer my question. I asked where it was stated.

It wasn't and it doesn't need to be. Sephiroth has Jenova's eyes and hair. Where do you think he got that if it wasn't genetic?

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I'd also like to know where it was stated that the Great Gospel rain killed Jenova cells.

That's what we're discussing :P.

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If the cells just made SOLDIERs "mildly" stronger, then why is Cloud able to defeat Sephiroth in battle? It seems to me that Cloud is almost equivalent to Sephiroth in strength.

Cloud was able to defeat Sephiroth in battle because of Sephiroth's arrogance. Cloud was stabbed 8 times and tossed around like a rag doll. He was constantly in trouble and out of breath during the battle, but Sephiroth hardly ever flinched or anything. In terms of physical strength, Sephiroth is much stronger than Cloud is, however due to Seph's arrogance and underestimating of Cloud, Cloud was able to come out on top.

Kitase said that Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him
http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1#more109

1. Sephiroth is never actually stated as being the strongest being in FFVII. He's only stated as being stronger than Cloud (Which certainly puts him up there, given that most people on a First Class SOLDIER level are above pretty much everything but certain monsters, such as WEAPON), and being the strongest SOLDIER during his days in SOLDIER.They did state that his "will and existence" is unsurpassed, but again, that's referring to his willpower...Which is obviously unsurpassed, considering the crap he's pulled off with it (Dominating a being that seems to be more of a virus than anything, resisting the flow of the Lifestream, creating multiple avatars of his spirit, restraining Holy, etc, etc).
they list stuff here:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/197341-fina...sy-vii/51121043

So Sephiroth is definitely stronger than Cloud by both will and by strength. The reason he was defeated was because he underestimated Cloud and left himself left open to being attacked.

We DO know magic can improve over time. Like I said before there's Aerith's healing magic, which grows to healing status ailments, which makes you invincible then finally Great Gospel is born.

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Not the point. I was saying that the Jenova cells in Hojo, Zack, and other dead SOLDIERs are still viable in the Lifestream. Did the Great Gospel rain kill those Jenova cells, too, or do they still exist?

No, because they're dead.

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And again, my point is - what happened to the Jenova cells in others like Hojo, Zack, Angeal, etc.? Do they still exist, or did the Great Gospel rain kill those J cells, too?

Sorry I misunderstood, see above.

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But it seems to me that not all were affected by the Great Gospel rain. Therefore, some cells still exist.

Great Gospel touched Edge, and that's it. Any areas outside of Edge were not affected by it because it didn't reach that far.

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And once again, it seems like a big, fat loophole in the story to me - especially if the Cetra had a form of Great Gospel.

Think of it this way. They didn't even destroy Jenova, they sealed her. It wasn't until years later, down the road that Cloud and co actually defeated parts of her. Jenova wasn't defeated in the time of the Cetra because it's wasn't possible. As time went on, magic and people got stronger and found a way to beat her.

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I thought the point of it was to cure Geostigma. To me, that seems more likely than saying she used a spell to kill Jenova that could have been used a long time ago, but wasn't because she forgot or something.

The spell couldn't have been used a long time ago because it didn't exist. If it did they would have used it. I know I said if it did exist back then it wasn't very strong, but scratch that. It just plain didn't exist back then. They were only able to seal her which shows us their magic wasn't on par with Aerith's.

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And he wasn't trying to make himself known between FFVII and AC/ACC, either, was he? *as far as we knew* Turns out, he was - but we didn't learn that til later.

Are you saying that maybe he IS trying to make himself known but we just haven't heard about it?

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So the Great Gospel she has in ACC is different than the Great Gospel she had in FFVII? Her spells improve while she's dead?

Why not? Seph got stronger when he was dead. And isn't GG supposed to make the party invincible yet Cloud was able to get shot?

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That means that the spells of the other Cetra improved, too, so they probably had something similar to Great Gospel. That also makes me wonder why one of the dead Cetra didn't cast Holy instead of making Aerith do it.

I think the biggest problem here is that you're clumping Aerith together with the "other Cetra." A theme that's present in a lot of FFs is extraordinary individuals that do what their precursors weren't able to do. I mean I could ask, "Well why didn't any other group in FFX defeat Sin the way Tidus and the others did?" or "Why didn't Squall defeat ultimecia when the entire future she lived in couldnt?" "Why could Sora defeat Xemnas or whoever he is when other keyblade masters couldn't?"

The "other Cetra" were unable to defeat Jenova and just because Aerith and Sephiroth improve their skills in the lifestream, doesn't mean everyone will.

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For that matter, I still have to wonder why Aerith didn't just use Great Gospel to kill Jenova and Sephiroth before he cast Meteor

See above. In simple terms, Aerith is more awesome than they were.

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I would lose a lot of respect for them if they *didn't* bring Sephy and Jenova back for the final installment of the Compilation. Too much of the story is tied up with Sephy and Jenova to just leave them out of it.

Hmm, like what? They seem to be on a Genesis kick now. Before Crisis was about the Turks, Crisis Core was about Genesis, FFVII and ACC were about Seph, DoC was about Deepground. So really, not a lot of the Compilation is about them.

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That's what you get for hanging out at a CloudxAerith forum where we see things very differently than you.

I understand but ... I don't understand what Jenova cells have to do with who Cloud loves XD I started this topic to point out some things some were confused about... am I saying something I shouldn't be saying. I kinda figured I might be since all the admins and mods have come into this thread.

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And we're talking about the evidence in CoT and AC/ACC which indicates that Cloud *wasn't* happy.

See what I said to HD, I agree that he wasn't always happy, but in the beginning he was.

FFG:

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At any rate, if revenge was Sephiroth's main motivation, he didn't get it in AC/C. All the more reason for him to come back.

Wouldn't that involve killing Cloud? :(

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* Then, we have Sephiroth saying that he'll never be a memory at the end of AC/ACC.

Well yeah, he's not going to say, "Well golly gee Cloud, ya got me!" I mean he's got too much pride for that.

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*We also know that Jenova cells can't be killed by Great Gospel, since Jenova's head and Sephiroth floated in the Lifestream from Mt. Nibel to the Northern Crater. The Lifestream didn't kill either of them at that time, so why would Great Gospel (isn't it Lifestream mixed with water?) kill them now?

I'm fairly certain it's more complicated than that.

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* How would Cloud have the strength to fight Sephiroth after being cured of Geostigma if it killed off his Jenova cells?

Seph has always been stronger than Cloud, see above.

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* MoTP says that Jenova cells can't return to the Planet:

Destroying them is different from them returning to the planet.

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So Seph has no intention of disappearing.

He had no intention of losing to Cloud three times either but he did. He had the intention of taking over the world but he didn't. Just because Sephiroth intends something, doesn't mean it'll happen.

and I hope that covers it all :lol:
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Alantie
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Dreams the world far away
I thought this discussion might be more tame and less tense than some, but apparently I was wrong.

Quex
 
It's gone, it dispersed, it disappeared. So is Sephiroth most likely.


From what we're shown in AC/ACC, it's Geostigma that was healed by Great Gospel, not the Black Lifestream. DoC further hints that the Lifestream has not been cleansed; they're gathering pure Lifestream to summon Omega- as in, Lifestream that is not tainted, such as would be the Black Lifestream.

And so is Sephiroth, most likely? Considering again the fact his last words in the movie are "I will never be a memory," and then learning in CoL that he has made Cloud the center of his existance- from what that implies, as long as Cloud lives and carries his memories of Sephiroth, Sephiroth will continue to exist and fight to return. There's no reason to think otherwise, unless its personal opinion. Death wasn't the end for Aerith, and it is not the end for Sephiroth either. There's nothing to imply that Sephiroth merged with the Lifestream at the end of AC, so I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that he did. Just because he got his ass handed to him to Cloud, I don't think that's going to stop him- he's not truly alive, he's a spirit. A butt kicking isn't going to keep him from causing problems, his beating at the end of FFVII certainly didn't keep him from coming back for another go.

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As long as Cloud remembers me, I can continue to exist. Within the Lifestream, and on the surface. Even if my spirit disseminates, even if just one fragment of a memory courses around the planet, in the end I can count on Cloud’s consciousness to bring me back, the man thought.


This alone speaks volumes. Sephiroth has made his hatred and revenge on Cloud the center of his existence, and as long as Cloud remembers him, it will bring him back. I don't see why this is up for arguement as there's nothing that states Sephiroth won't be able to try again. Just because you think it's lame to keep bringing Sephiroth back doesn't mean that he won't, or that he can't.

Quex
 
Since Geostigma still exists in some places after ACC, you'd think that Sephiroth would still be around. Yet there's no more remnants, no more new Geostigma cases, no negative lifestream showing up... all these things to me suggest that Sephiroth is dead. If he was still around somewhere, he'd be trying his damnest to make himself known, yet he isn't. More than likely because he can't, because he's dead.


It took 2 years after the first game ended for Sephiroth's plan to come together. With that length of time to prepare for his return, and you expect him to pop right back up again? He lost a lot of power and tools after AC, I don't think he's going to build all that up as quickly. Not to mention that for 2 years no one knew what Sephiroth was up to until he pushed things into fast motion with the Silver Haired Trio. And Sephiroth IS dead. He's a spirit, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to come back to life. He hasn't merged though, that is the difference.

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It's not Aerith's will that keeps her in there, although that IS part of it, it's the fact that she's a Cetra. Sephiroth was using Jenova cells to stick around.


It's a combination of her strength of will and her being a Cetra.

MotP
 
Even so, she couldn't see anyone nearby that had a form like she did. From what she saw, only she retained the image of her past self in the mist of the flowing energy full of different consciousnesses.

"I wonder... If it's because I'm a Cetra?"

The words came out as a murmur from Aerith. Here, words and thoughts were the same. As an entity of consciousness, her thoughts and feelings were only expressed as waves she emitted. Similarly, the huge number of memories in the Lifestream also reached her as all sorts of waves. All around her she heard whispers of how if you didn't retain a strong ego, you would soon no longer know which consciousness belonged to you.

"I was hoping my words would reach Cloud..."

She puffed out her cheeks a little looking displeased. She was not affected by the confusion of the various consciousnesses that existed in the sea of memories and knowledge inside the Mako energy. Because of her experience of hearing the voice of the Planet when she was young, she had built up a lot of patience. Aerith was raised so that she could retain her own consciousness and not lose her personality.

But she understood returning to the Planet depended on how she was separated as a "whole". Even when water droplets fall into a river, they blend in and can't be seen anymore. No matter how used to things she was, she thought it was odd how her soul could still remain unique in the vast sea of conscious energy.


This passage supports this. Aerith is a Cetra, but even a Cetra if they aren't strong enough can lose themselves amongst the thousands of other souls and consciousnesses there. Clearly many of the Cetra have already merged with the Lifestream- otherwise, wouldn't it make sense that there would be plenty of them there to help Aerith to fight Sephiroth?

And Sephiroth's hatred for Cloud, his strong will, are indeed what keep him from merging with the Lifestream.

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The man knew that if one could hold onto some core of their spirit, then one could remain a separate entity, independent from the planet’s system. Cloud. The man decided to make Cloud that core. And he wanted to let Cloud know of that. I’m still thinking of you. And I’ll show you the proof of that as well.


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The woman had sensed a different presence within the Lifestream cycling around the planet. It was the vehemence of a strong will, one that would never join with the planet.


I believe there's also a quote somewhere about Aerith's will being equally strong as Sephiroth's.

Quex
 
You gather incorrectly. If the negative lifestream was still around after ACC, we would have heard about it or seen it. Aerith destroyed it.


Then by all means, point out a source that states the Black Lifestream is gone. Aerith was shown cleansing Geostigma in AC. Where was it shown or stated she cleansed the Black Lifestream? CoL said she was trying to find a way to do it, but that hate filled spirits made it more difficult. She reflects on how that as long as there is hate in life it will carry on into the Lifestream, and DoC shows there's still plenty of strong hate around. And I believe we DO hear about it. DoC has Deepground slaughtering people to create a 'pure' Lifestream.

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Reeve: By slaughtering thousands of innocent souls, they are creating a pure Lifestream in order to trick the planet into thinking the "end" is near.
Cid: Why, those conniving...!


If they're creating a pure Lifestream of their own instead of just using the Lifestream that already exists, doesn't that suggest that there is still a taint? They take people who are without the taint of Geostigma- there's a scene of a young girl and her mother, and the Deepground Soldiers system shows the mother as being tainted, and the girl as being pure.

And everyone else has done a good job of pointing out that Cloud's happiness is questionable, so I won't go into it. He clearly wasn't happy, or AC wouldn't have taken the turn it did, nor would CoT. He was hopeful and happy at the begining, fresh off the high from his victory over Sephiroth, but then once that high wears off he starts to fall back into the guilt and depression.

HD
 
Jenova cells and Sephiroth don't necessarily have to be destroyed for Geostigma to heal as long as you can take out one of the other components. Take Cloud, for example. We've seen a couple of occasions where his geostigma becomes worse when his guilt kicks in. I'd say that a big part of it has to do with one's mental state and even if Sephiroth or Jenova cells aren't destroyed, if a person's mind can be healed then it, in a sense, cures the Geostigma.


Exactly. It's not a new concept either, a lot of people believe that a positive mindset helps in recovering from illness, so the idea isn't so farfetched.

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We really don't know exactly when he contracted Geostigma but I assume it's after he goes back to visit the site where Aerith died since that kind of happens really early on in CoT. Things started to really go downhill after that and we don't learn that he has the disease until much later on.


Yeah, I saw people theorizing that Cloud contracted Geostigma after ACC came out, with that scene where Cloud is taking Denzel on his motorcycle, and Denzel is resting against him. So some people thought he caught it from Denzel there, but as we've seen otherwise, it's not contageous that way. So he had to have contracted it another way. I think you have a point about him contracting it at that time, HD. He doesn't ever talk about what happened there to Tifa. *shrugs* It would be nice to know for sure, but I don't think it's really necissary. For all we know he could have had it for the entire two years, a year, or a few months. SE hasn't told us.
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Quexinos
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WOO HOO!
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I thought this discussion might be more tame and less tense than some, but apparently I was wrong.

I dunno where you're getting that people are tense and not tame, but I'm just having a discussion here. If I'm doing something wrong then tell me and I'll stop, but no one in here seems to tense or untame.

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From what we're shown in AC/ACC, it's Geostigma that was healed by Great Gospel, not the Black Lifestream. DoC further hints that the Lifestream has not been cleansed; they're gathering pure Lifestream to summon Omega- as in, Lifestream that is not tainted, such as would be the Black Lifestream.


Just FYI, it's not Black Lifestream, it's Negative Lifestream. And they were creating a lifestream to summon Omega. They needed a new one they could control so they built a new one from untainted individuals. As for the negative lifestream being destroyed, it's got no additional source of input, it's architect is destroyed (or at least dispersed,) and there is now a way to purify it

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And so is Sephiroth, most likely? Considering again the fact his last words in the movie are "I will never be a memory,"

Again, what is he supposed to say? "Well you got me Cloud :(" This is Sephiroth, his pride isn't going to let him admit defeat like that.

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There's nothing to imply that Sephiroth merged with the Lifestream at the end of AC, so I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that he did

Maybe I should have been more clear here but what I'm saying is, even if he's in the lifestream and not merging with it, there's nothing more he can do, try as he might. I personally think there's a big possibility that he did merge with the planet, but even if he didn't, what else can he do really?

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This alone speaks volumes. Sephiroth has made his hatred and revenge on Cloud the center of his existence, and as long as Cloud remembers him, it will bring him back. I don't see why this is up for arguement as there's nothing that states Sephiroth won't be able to try again. Just because you think it's lame to keep bringing Sephiroth back doesn't mean that he won't, or that he can't.

Sephiroth is focusing on Cloud, but that does NOT mean he's indispersable. And all of this is just Sephiroth talking here. It doesn't mean he's right. He obviously needed more than just Cloud's thoughts to return, right? If that's all it took he wouldn't have needed Jenova's head and he wouldn't have gone to all that trouble.

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It took 2 years after the first game ended for Sephiroth's plan to come together. With that length of time to prepare for his return, and you expect him to pop right back up again?

It's been two years since ACC in Case of Denzel and there's no signs of anything weird going on. You'd think if anything weird started to come about Sephiroth would be their first concern. Besides the next compilation seems to want to focus on Genesis so we need to get that out of the way first.

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He lost a lot of power and tools after AC, I don't think he's going to build all that up as quickly. Not to mention that for 2 years no one knew what Sephiroth was up to until he pushed things into fast motion with the Silver Haired Trio. And Sephiroth IS dead. He's a spirit, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to come back to life. He hasn't merged though, that is the difference.

Fair enough but I don't see any options for him really. He can run around in the lifestream and talk all he wants to, it doesn't mean he can do anything.

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It's a combination of her strength of will and her being a Cetra.

Yes you're right, it is. If I said otherwise (which I think I did) I was wrong.

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I believe there's also a quote somewhere about Aerith's will being equally strong as Sephiroth's.

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me. She was obviously able to surpass her ancestors so it would pretty much make sense.

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Then by all means, point out a source that states the Black Lifestream is gone. Aerith was shown cleansing Geostigma in AC. Where was it shown or stated she cleansed the Black Lifestream? CoL said she was trying to find a way to do it, but that hate filled spirits made it more difficult. She reflects on how that as long as there is hate in life it will carry on into the Lifestream, and DoC shows there's still plenty of strong hate around. And I believe we DO hear about it. DoC has Deepground slaughtering people to create a 'pure' Lifestream.

The negative lifestream is made up of those who have died from Geostigma.

"Despite mankind’s troubles, life on the planet had returned to normal. The man became aware of the increase in spirits— they could be called the darkness of the heart— melding with the Lifestream. He cherished that lingering darkness. Even more so when he considered that the stigma he had left on the surface was what created it. He thought that he could possibly enjoy himself with that. Filling the Lifestream with this darkness."

and

And even more terrifyingly, the spiritual energy of the dead afflicted with Geostigma will separate from the normal cycle of life and join the Negative Lifestream

Geostigma was destroyed in ACC, so the negative lifestream has no basis then because Geostigma is a huge part of what the negative lifestream makes up. There's Geostigma in DoC, but as FFG said it's dormant and most likely people who just haven't been to the church to heal themselves. Without Geostigma, the negative lifestream can't exist.

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If they're creating a pure Lifestream of their own instead of just using the Lifestream that already exists, doesn't that suggest that there is still a taint? They take people who are without the taint of Geostigma- there's a scene of a young girl and her mother, and the Deepground Soldiers system shows the mother as being tainted, and the girl as being pure.

Again they were creating a new lifestream so that they could control it.

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And everyone else has done a good job of pointing out that Cloud's happiness is questionable, so I won't go into it. He clearly wasn't happy, or AC wouldn't have taken the turn it did, nor would CoT. He was hopeful and happy at the begining, fresh off the high from his victory over Sephiroth, but then once that high wears off he starts to fall back into the guilt and depression.

So it's a lot like what I've been saying since the beginning then? COOL! :dance:

As for this discussion being untame and what not, I'm not mad at anyone or anything like that. Yeah I snark sometimes but who doesn't? It happens. I'm just trying to have a discussion here... a lot of the discussions on TLS either go too fast for me or are taken up by those much more knowledgeable than I am and I just end up going, "I agree" and what's the point of that?
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Hades' Daughter
Cleris Extremist
Quex:
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1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Nomura say he didn't know if they were in a relationship just once? I'm always seeing this "Many times throughout the years" but I've yet only been able to find one source on it. But you're free to show me others if they are out there. It'd probably make for better discussion on some other forums as well.


Although that specific question was only asked of Nomura once, I'm pretty sure the subject of the LT has been touched on more than once with him. Technically, anytime he says he doesn't have an answer to the LT, that would also mean he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. That's what I meant...not that that matters. Saying it once doesn't make him any less of a liar than saying it several times. A lie would be a lie.

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2. It also doesn't mean he can't change his mind later on and (something I bring up a lot that people tend to ignore) is that, he actually IS a notorious liar. He also once said Kairi and Namine weren't related in any way as not to spoil people but there's a difference between saying something to not spoil anyone and explaining what's going on after a story has come out.


You're saying he's saying things as not to spoil anyone. That's an assumption though. Unless he specifically says that, you can't simply put it off as that. I tend to think that if it was just a matter of not wanting to spoil things, he would say so and not answer the question. I don't see Nomura as a liar, just extremely vague as Shrouded pointed out. He leaves plenty of room for interpretation.

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3. Nomrua isn't the only one involved in this stuff. Nojima and Kitase are also involved.


I'm almost quite positive all staff are, in one way or another.

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If the creators flat out saying on three separate occasions that Cloud was happy at the start of CoT, and you don't believe him, I don't know what to tell you.


I asked how that statement you provided shows Cloud was completely happy and the reply you gave was this:

"The more happy Cloud is, the more troubled by his past he is."

Vagueness. One can be hopeful for the future and, is thus, happy in that sense but that doesn't necessarily mean they are in their ultimate state of happiness. Nomura didn't say he was completely happy, certainly not in the quote you provided. Not only that, as I've mentioned, Nomura and Co. had Tifa say in CoT that Cloud never recovered from losing Aerith. He was merely "on the verge" of overcoming things. Those are Tifa's words, not mine. As I tend to believe Aerith, I'm also giving Tifa the benefit of the doubt. Tifa's words are pretty much his words(or Nojima's, in this case), since, you know, she really doesn't have a separate mind of her own.

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never said it wasn't. I said it might not ALWAYS be the case, but there are other factors as well.


That's what I'm pretty much saying. I said that in response to the argument that Jenova cells had to be destroyed in order for Geostigma to heal. I said that there are several components to the disease, that one's state of mind is a part of it, and that if you can heal that part then, you know, Jenova cells don't have to go away. I said it makes sense to me, that's all.
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Quexinos
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Although that specific question was only asked of Nomura once, I'm pretty sure the subject of the LT has been touched on more than once with him. Technically, anytime he says he doesn't have an answer to the LT, that would also mean he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship. That's what I meant...not that that matters. Saying it once doesn't make him any less of a liar than saying it several times. A lie would be a lie.

I know and I'm asking for you for quotes where he said he didn't know or whatever. I only remember him saying I don't know once. And to me saying something once shouldn't be turned into "has said several times over the years." One time does not equal several.

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You're saying he's saying things as not to spoil anyone. That's an assumption though. Unless he specifically says that, you can't simply put it off as that. I tend to think that if it was just a matter of not wanting to spoil things, he would say so and not answer the question. I don't see Nomura as a liar, just extremely vague as Shrouded pointed out. He leaves plenty of room for interpretation.

Well why else would he say Namine and Kairi weren't related? That's a lie no matter what way you look at it and he obviously did it so players would be surprised.

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I asked how that statement you provided shows Cloud was completely happy and the reply you gave was this:

Well I don't think Cloud or anyone will ever be COMPLETELY happy.

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That's what I'm pretty much saying. I said that in response to the argument that Jenova cells had to be destroyed in order for Geostigma to heal. I said that there are several components to the disease, that one's state of mind is a part of it, and that if you can heal that part then, you know, Jenova cells don't have to go away. I said it makes sense to me, that's all.

Okay I misunderstood you then. I thought you were saying that ones state of mind can determine ho bad the disease is. The difference is the Jenova cells are the things that directly cause the disease. If the Jenova cells aren't there, it doesn't matter how depressed or anything you are, you won't get the disease. And what about Denzel? He had a pretty good state of mind. He was fighting his butt off not to die, but the disease didn't just go away. Yes state of mind can certainly speed up or slow down the illness, but the only way to completely get rid of it would be to get rid of the cause, aka Jenova cells.
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Hades' Daughter
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I know and I'm asking for you for quotes where he said he didn't know or whatever. I only remember him saying I don't know once.


I don't recall them off the top of my head but I'll see if I can grab quotes for you.

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And to me saying something once shouldn't be turned into "has said several times over the years." One time does not equal several.


If I'm wrong about it, I'll certainly retract that statement. However, it doesn't change the point I was making in any shape or form.

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Well why else would he say Namine and Kairi weren't related?


Not related as in...what? Sounds pretty vague. You want me to guess?

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That's a lie no matter what way you look at it and he obviously did it so players would be surprised.


Unless Nomura stated somewhere as to why he said what he said, you would be guessing and assuming.

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Well I don't think Cloud or anyone will ever be COMPLETELY happy.


Cloud finds his Promised Land at the end of AC/ACC. One's promised land is one's place of supreme happiness. It's the highest level of happiness one can ever achieve. That's what I meant by completely/fully happy.

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I thought you were saying that ones state of mind can determine ho bad the disease is.


Not sure if I'm understanding what you mean but we can see Cloud's Geostigma get worse when his guilt kicks in.

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And what about Denzel? He had a pretty good state of mind. He was fighting his butt off not to die, but the disease didn't just go away.


Sure, I can agree that Denzel wasn't giving up on life but was he, an orphan who'd lost his parents, perfectly happy and content with life? I can't recall if he was carrying guilt of his own or not.
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Quexinos
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I don't recall them off the top of my head but I'll see if I can grab quotes for you.

Thanks, just remember this is what you said:
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Okay, so if you want to take everything they say at face value, there would be no LTD then. Nomura has stated several times throughout the years that he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship.

So what you need to provide me with is these "several" quotes that say just that. I don't want to see any "I let the players decide what Cloud is like." or "Well if you read this one way he COULD Be saying that." I want these several statements that say as clear as day "Idk if CxT are in a relationship." Not one, not two, but several.

Also I'm aware of the one where Nomura was asked about Sephiroth's love life and then he said "I've been asked if CxT were in a relationship and I have no clue." I know about that one and I've seen this one get tossed around:

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Question: Okay then, so the person who Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?
Nomura: Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought.

But that one's not about the love triangle so it doesn't really pertain here. Like I said I want "I don't know if they're in a relationship" several times.

Now if you do provide me with such I'm not going to argue or debate them or anything like that since it's not allowed. I just want to see that they exist.

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Not related as in...what? Sounds pretty vague. You want me to guess?

As in there is no connection between them. This was before KH2 came out.

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Unless Nomura stated somewhere as to why he said what he said, you would be guessing and assuming.

Why else would he say it though?

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Cloud finds his Promised Land at the end of AC/ACC. One's promised land is one's place of supreme happiness. It's the highest level of happiness one can ever achieve. That's what I meant by completely/fully happy.

I see.

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Not sure if I'm understanding what you mean but we can see Cloud's Geostigma get worse when his guilt kicks in.

Absolutely, state of mind can make it worse, but that's not what causes it.

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Sure, I can agree that Denzel wasn't giving up on life but was he, an orphan who'd lost his parents, perfectly happy and content with life? I can't recall if he was carrying guilt of his own or not.

I don't think Denzel had much guilt to deal with. He has a heavy past though. Again though, without the Jenova cells it wouldn't matter. That's what causes the stigma in the first place. Guilt and sorrow will make the disease worse, but just getting rid of the guilt and sorrow won't be enough to kill the disease. Besides which, I'm not positive but I think geostigma meses with your head a bit too. So it's possible that people who have the stigma can't be happy. I'll have to look into that though.
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So what you need to provide me with is these "several" quotes that say just that. I don't want to see any "I let the players decide what Cloud is like." or "Well if you read this one way he COULD Be saying that." I want these several statements that say as clear as day "Idk if CxT are in a relationship." Not one, not two, but several.


I know what "several" means...though, again, I'm not exactly sure where we're going with this as I was simply pointing out how vague Nomura can be. And saying it's up to player interpretation is practically the same thing as not having the answer.

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As in there is no connection between them. This was before KH2 came out.


Is that what he said or is that how you interpreted what he said to mean? Saying Kairi and Namine aren't related isn't necessarily the same thing as saying there's no connection between the two.

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Why else would he say it though?


I'm not Nomura so I wouldn't have the answer to that. I don't see much of a point behind guessing. A guess is a guess.

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Absolutely, state of mind can make it worse, but that's not what causes it.


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Again though, without the Jenova cells it wouldn't matter. That's what causes the stigma in the first place. Guilt and sorrow will make the disease worse, but just getting rid of the guilt and sorrow won't be enough to kill the disease.


As I've been saying, while Jenova cells are a component, I also think other components such as Sephiroth and one's state of mind are all a part of it...which is why I'm saying that I don't think Jenova cells have to disappear in order for the stigma to heal. If you can take away some of the other components(such as Sephiroth's will and healing one's state of mind), the disease ceases to exist. What exactly does Aerith's healing rain do? That was never clarified. You think it kills Jenova cells. I think it's possible it purifies the human soul and mind. That may alter how one's body reacts to the Jenova cells.
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