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Geostigma
Topic Started: May 4 2010, 11:03 PM (2,046 Views)
Quexinos
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I see a lot of people say here that Great Gospel didn't get rid of Jenova cells. I guess I'm a little confused then.. what do you think it did to Cloud exactly? Vincent says Geostigma is the body fighting off alien matter... how can you cure a disease without removing the cause? Yes people in DoC still had it but that's because they were not touched by Aerith's Great Gospel rain. They need to go to the pool to get cured.

I think some people are confused about the Negative Lifestream as well. That is composed of the dead of Geostigma, tied and corrupted due to Sephiroth's will. Aerith's healing water dispersed that too. So it's common sense that if Aerith's water could destroy the Negative Lifestream, which is composed of Jenova Cell corrupted Spirit Energy, that it would also destroy Jenova cells within the human body.

Right?... or no?
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Shiva
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Well, I am a little confused on this matter myself. But, I always saw it as Aerith purifying the negative Lifestream part of Geostigma and, without the negative Lifestream as a base, the whole disease just sort of lost its cohesion.
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Jon Snow
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I got no clue. And quite frankly I don't give a crap.

But, I'll go for the best explinantion someone can give >.<
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Quexinos
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FF_Goddess
May 5 2010, 08:32 AM
Well, I am a little confused on this matter myself. But, I always saw it as Aerith purifying the negative Lifestream part of Geostigma and, without the negative Lifestream as a base, the whole disease just sort of lost its cohesion.

The negative lifestream is made up of the people who died from Geostigma. Geostigma was used to make the negative lifestream grow.. The negative lifestream has Jenova cells in it and that's how the cells got into other people. If she purified just the negative lifestream, that wouldn't have stopped the disease.

Geostigma is the body over compensating for alien material inside the body, aka Jenova cells. In order to cure Geostigma, the cells would have to go. That's why we know Cloud no longer has the cells inside of him. That's how some people in DoC still have Geostigma. If it was just the negative lifestream that was causing it, all of Geostigma all over the world would have died as Aerith got rid of the negative lifestream. But we know that's not true, as it's been pointed out that there is still some Geostigma going around in DoC.

That's the best I can explain it.
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Anastar
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Quexinos
 
Geostigma is the body over compensating for alien material inside the body, aka Jenova cells.  In order to cure Geostigma, the cells would have to go.

Or the body's tendency to fight those cells off was cured.

Look at it this way: before Geostigma, there was no such reaction to Jenova cells. The only problem was if the mind wasn't strong enough to retain it's own identity. The will of Jenova overtaking the individual's will was the only "sickness" associated with Jenova cells.

Therefore, something changed in the body's reaction to Jenova cells. I always took it that the body's reaction to Jenova cells was cured, rather than it killing Jenova cells.

If Great Gospel kills Jenova cells, then it seems to me that killing Cloud's Jenova cells would also kill Cloud, since Jenova cells actually make up his body now. As I understand it, being injected with Jenova cells changes the human cellular structure. It's not like cancer, where you kill off the cells responsible for the disease.
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Quexinos
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Look at it this way: before Geostigma, there was no such reaction to Jenova cells.

I think Seph had a hand in this.

Quote:
 
As I understand it, being injected with Jenova cells changes the human cellular structure.

I don't think this was ever stated, at least not quite like that... maybe I'll look into it more when I'm awake more. I guess I'm a little confused, the only way to cure a disease is to get rid of what's causing it. I mean how exactly do you kill off the body's reaction to something?
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Anastar
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Quexinos
May 5 2010, 04:22 PM
I don't think this was ever stated, at least not quite like that... maybe I'll look into it more when I'm awake more.  I guess I'm a little confused, the only way to cure a disease is to get rid of what's causing it.  I mean how exactly do you kill off the body's reaction to something?

No, I don't think it was ever specifically stated, but how else could the injection of Jenova cells have that effect on the human body? Wouldn't the human cellular structure have to be modified? It seems to me that it would - otherwise, why not just inject humans with stuff to build muscular strength?

In order for humans like Cloud and the clones to hear the call of the Reunion, it seems to me that something more than just muscle building is going on. Neural pathways and neural chemistry are actually being modified.

For another thing, if Great Gospel kills Jenova cells, then why didn't the Cetra use Great Gospel to defeat Jenova when she first appeared? If the Cetra didn't have Great Gospel itself, then they must have had a spell very similar to it. I doubt Aerith was the first Cetra to have it. So why did the Cetra confine Jenova instead of killing her?
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Quexinos
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Alright Crisis Core guide:

Quote:
 
The cells from Jenova used in the Jenova Project and SOLDIER surgical procedures. Those who have been injected with these cells undergo physiological changes such as improvement of their physical abilities and partially receiving Jenova’s abilities. However, mentally weak people are unable to withstand Jenova’s will, and it sometimes brings about mental abnormalities.


The only individual who went through anything genetic is Sephiroth. If Cloud was made up of Jenova now he'd be able to shape shift and what not. Think about things like steroids, they don't genetically alter you or become part of you, but they do give your body a boost in physical skills.

Quote:
 
For another thing, if Great Gospel kills Jenova cells, then why didn't the Cetra use Great Gospel to defeat Jenova when she first appeared? If the Cetra didn't have Great Gospel itself, then they must have had a spell very similar to it. I doubt Aerith was the first Cetra to have it. So why did the Cetra confine Jenova instead of killing her?

You're thinking about it too much. That's along the lines of "Why didn't Cloud use a phoenix down on Aerith?" That wouldn't have made a good story

But if you want to go there, here's a thought BTW
what if all the Cetra in the lifestream helped Aerith with her Great Gospel spell? maybe they had a similar spell before that stopped Jenova but didn't destroy her... but this time around they were able to get rid of her because of the amount of Cetra that were in the lifestream all working together with Aerith.
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Jon Snow
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Quote:
 

The only individual who went through anything genetic is Sephiroth. If Cloud was made up of Jenova now he'd be able to shape shift and what not.


Well, that's kinda what Vincent does. Not only that, but Hojo has the Jenova cells too, and when he transforms into a monster it's exactly like what VIncent's monster forms look like. So I think that's why I thought Vincent had the cells >.<

Also, in KH(even if this is an AU)Cloud has a demonic wing on his back. Isn't that the same thing?



Quote:
 
You're thinking about it too much. That's along the lines of "Why didn't Cloud use a phoenix down on Aerith?" That wouldn't have made a good story

Or,
it could be some other kind of new attack(would you call it that?) Aerith developed.
Quote:
 
But if you want to go there, here's a thought BTW
what if all the Cetra in the lifestream helped Aerith with her Great Gospel spell? maybe they had a similar spell before that stopped Jenova but didn't destroy her... but this time around they were able to get rid of her because of the amount of Cetra that were in the lifestream all working together with Aerith.

Posted Image
Sounds like a fanfiction.
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Quexinos
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Also, in KH(even if this is an AU)Cloud has a demonic wing on his back. Isn't that the same thing?

As what? Sorry I'm tired, the wind kept me up.
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Jon Snow
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Quexinos
May 5 2010, 05:18 PM
Quote:
 
Also, in KH(even if this is an AU)Cloud has a demonic wing on his back. Isn't that the same thing?

As what? Sorry I'm tired, the wind kept me up.

AS transforming into a monster?

You said;
he'd be able to shape shift and what not.

and I said;

Cloud has a demonic wing on his back. Isn't that the same thing?
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Quexinos
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No it's not.. that's AU anyway and just showing that Seph is part of Cloud. Didn't the wing come from Hades anyway?

also something I thought of about the negative lifestream causing Geostigma. Keep in mind that

1. Cloud was healed BEFORE the negative lifestream was gone.
2. Denzel was healed after.

If it was just the negative lifestream that caused it, all of geostigma would have been gone once the negative lifestream was gone. Basically, the Negative lifestream has nothing to do with Geostigma where as Geostigma has everything to do with the Negative Lifestream.

As for not using Great Gospel... now that I think about it, Aerith was the one who created it. It's hers. So they can't use an ability they don't have yet. Plus like I said before, the other Cetra probably all helped with it, having improved their magic after thousands of years.
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Alantie
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Quexinos
May 5 2010, 07:13 PM
also something I thought of about the negative lifestream causing Geostigma.  Keep in mind that

1.  Cloud was healed BEFORE the negative lifestream was gone.
2.  Denzel was healed after.

If it was just the negative lifestream that caused it, all of geostigma would have been gone once the negative lifestream was gone.


I wasn't under the impression that the Black Lifestream was gone, only that it's influence over the world was somewhat broken for the time being when Aerith cleansed everyone. The Black Lifestream is essentially corrupted Lifestream with Jenova cells, and hate filled spirits, controlled by Sephiroth, from what I understand. Sephiroth's spirit will not merge with the Lifestream, as with Aerith their wills are strong enough to keep them from being absorbed.

So from what I gather, as long as Sephiroth refuses to merge with the Lifestream, the Black Lifestream will continue to exist. His power however depends on a few things, as CoL points out. He relies on his memory being kept alive- as it is in Cloud- and the hate filled spirits that resist merging. We learn that Aerith is doing her best to ease the hate and brings instead to mind joyful memories which cause the spirits to merge. However she reflects that as long as there is lots of hate in life, it's going to continue to cause problems in the Lifestream.

As for what exactly causes Geostigma, I think it's a combination of things: Sephiroth, Jenova cells in the Lifestream, fear, and belief. We know Sephiroth is behind it. In CoL he talks about spreading 'his' stigma, as he refers to it. He's certainly the source, and contact with the Black Lifestream seems to be what starts the disease off.

There's an interesting point made in Case of Yuffie:

Quote:
 
"Hey, you know," interrupted Nanaki. "Materia is also said to be the crystalisation of the Ancient's knowledge."

"Yeah, I heard about that."

"Maybe the Ancients didn't manage to heal the illness your mother has either. Maybe it never existed during the Ancients Era. So maybe there is no materia to heal it," said Nanaki.

"Hey, Nanaki! You can't say that. Maybe we just haven't found any yet."

"But think about it. If that kind of materia really existed, there wouldn't be so many people infected—Ouch!"

Yuffie pinged Nanaki's nose with her fingers. She thought he maybe right. And that made her angry. Nanaki's reasoning meant that there was no materia in existence to counter the disease that was making people suffer, pushing them to their deaths as black liquids flowed from their bodies.

"I hate you, Nanaki."

"What!?"


So following the logic that Nanaki presents, Geostigma did not exist until Sephiroth brought it down on everyone, otherwise the Cetra who fought Jenova would have created a materia or a cure for it. This is only a theory, but it does make sense.

CoY goes further with hints on Geostigma's causes and creation.

Quote:
 
Yuffie spent around two weeks looking after the patients.The number increased even though the new patients hadn't been in contact with those that were quarantined.

"It appears the disease isn't contagious. Even though a quarantine's been set up, the number of patients are still increasing. In other words, well—I'm sorry, my daughter."


So from what this suggests, Geostigma isn't contagious the way other diseases are. Quarantines don't effect it's spread.

Quote:
 
"Hey, Yuffie. There's something I noticed—" said Yuri, "I've been thinking about why some people are infected and why others aren't."

"You learned something?"

"Yeah. The people here are those who have suffered from another kind of illness before and those who were heavily wounded by the overflowing Lifestream. In other words, they're all people that think they're going to die."

"Really?"

"Yeah, and it's not just my imagination. It's the truth. Even I—"

Yuri prevaricated.

"You thought you were going to die? When?"

"At the cave we went to. When I was soaked by that strange water and passed out—Hey!"

Yuri and Yuffie looked at each other.

"That water!?"

Perhaps the water was the cause of all this. Yuffie immediately went around asking the patients. She asked if they had drank or were soaked in some strange water.

However in the end, a clear conclusion couldn't be made. Everyone noticed the water's taste had changed after the Lifestream erupted and passed by. They had thought nothing of it because to the people of Wutai who pumped up underground water to use, the taste always changed whenever there was an earthquake. Apart from being soaked in the Lifestream being the cause, they felt they couldn't eliminate the possibility that the disease was somehow linked to the water and the condition the people were in at the time.

They reported their opinions to Godo.

1. Take care when using water. It is unknown if boiling the water will have any effect but make sure you do so before use.
2. Do not think you are going to die


Quote:
 
And three children had also caught the disease. They were brothers aged eight, six and four. Yuffie was surprised that children at this age were already thinking they were going to die. However, when she heard that they thought they were all going to be washed away together when they tried to rescue their older brother drowning in the river, she was confident the thoughts she and Yuri had about the disease were correct. Geostigma—that was what it was called around world now—spreading through a suspicious looking kind of water. It enters into the bodies of those who have given up on life or are faint-hearted.


Quote:
 
Almost another year had passed. As Geostigma continued to spread, a cure was still yet to be found. Quite a number of people had the same opinions about the disease as Yuffie and Yuri did but, there were far more people that believed they will get infected as soon as they got into contact with the diseased and because of that, many of those unfortunate victims and their family lived in a life of despair. This increased the chances of the family members gaining the disease too and as a result, gave the people the proof they needed to believe the rumours of infection.


A lot of these theories presented in CoY about fear, despair, and being faint of heart causing the stigma make sense. Sephiroth works through manipulation, praying on people's fears and weaknesses- he does this repeatedly with Cloud. When the Lifestream spilled over the Planet, they were certainly afraid, which made them easy prey to the stigma. The more people believe that the stigma is contagious and will spread, the more people contract the disease.

It's interesting that Yuffie is the one who's novella focuses on this. She's probably the cheerfulest of the gang, and the one who's most optimistic. She is surrounded by people with the stigma for over a year and never catches it herself.

Just some random thoughts to ponder.

Edit:

Reading through Case of Shinra brought some other things up.

Quote:
 
"I'll ask the people inside the house. They're less likely to threaten me," Elena said just as she was about to go inside.

"Elena, be careful. They've got the disease in there."

"If it was contagious then I would have been infected already," she replied and Reno didn't disagree.


Quote:
 
"I want to do some investigating of my own. We're surrounded by so many of these patients yet nothing's happened to us. Weird, isn't it?"

"The Boss said it isn't contagious," said Rude punching Reno in the stomach lightly because he still looked half doubtful. "How about little training, partner? Been a while."

"Why?"

"To train our body and mind. If we are strong in both then we won't fall ill."


Some more sources that say the stigma isn't contagious.

Quote:
 
"Why, I'm a doctor. I simply want to rid the world of all diseases."

"That is commendable. But why did you bring me here?"

"Jenova."

"What?" asked Rufus in a loud voice, hearing the unexpected name.

"After examining the patients I found that a number of their cells resemble those found in Soldiers."

"Please explain," urged Rufus who saw Kilmister glancing over at the boy again.

"I will in due time," he replied and became quiet.


The doctor further researches Geostigma, and presents his findings to Rufus later.

Quote:
 
"Well, doctor? Shouldn't it be about time you revealed the results of your research to me? I am very intrigued to learn what the relation between the disease I have and Jenova is."

"Very well. First of all, there has been no progress towards a cure even over these two years," Kilmister said as if he was joking even though he had managed to improve the effectiveness of the stimulant. Rufus listened without any change in expression. "But I very much know the source of the disease now."

Kilmister began by telling Rufus how the very first patient had directly been washed over by the Lifestream. He knew this the moment he examined the first patient infected and seemed to be pleased he did.

"There is another common symptom I found in the patients. Whenever the disease's symptoms grew worse, I found they were all troubled and were ready to accept their deaths - You know that yourself don't you, Mr. President?"

Indeed, thought Rufus.

"After that day I'm sure many have thought to themselves there is no future for them and that death was near. It was then that there was a sudden increase in the number of infected people. Also..."

Kilmister began talking about the black water. Rufus remembered the water that seemed to have its own mind during the flood in the cave.

"...Amongst the ones with post-symptoms of the disease, we have seen many who appears to be stained with black water. I believe they have either submerged or drank the water themselves without knowing it. It is water after all. When you think of it like that then they could have absorbed it from anywhere."

"What do you mean when you say if you think of it like that?" Rufus asked, curious in the doctor's choice of words.

"The pain and fever the patients experience is proof that their bodies are fighting a foreign substance. Compared to other illnesses, it is perhaps too much for them to endure. However, the one who brought about this substance is powerful. Nothing can be done to ease their suffering."

"Have you found out the true source of this disease?"

"...They are Sephiroth's genes, you could say they are Jenova's genes in a way - No, you should say they are remnants of his genes. It is as I have once told you. They resemble the distinct characteristics that Soldiers had."

Rufus' memory of being surrounded by black water suddenly came to mind again and his body froze at the sound of Sephiroth's name.


The doctor's findings in CoS pretty much match up with what Yuffie discovered in CoY. Interesting!
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Quexinos
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I wasn't under the impression that the Black Lifestream was gone, only that it's influence over the world was somewhat broken for the time being when Aerith cleansed everyone

It's gone, it dispersed, it disappeared. So is Sephiroth most likely.

Quote:
 
Sephiroth's spirit will not merge with the Lifestream, as with Aerith their wills are strong enough to keep them from being absorbed.

There's nothing but Sephiroth's own words to suggest that he will never merge with the lifestream. It's not Aerith's will that keeps her in there, although that IS part of it, it's the fact that she's a Cetra. Sephiroth was using Jenova cells to stick around.

Think about this, Sephiroth was able to wreak havoc around the planet because the Jenova cells spread all over the place. He made the negative lifestream and all that in between FFVII and ACC. He was able to spread his stigma because of the cells that got inside people. Since Geostigma still exists in some places after ACC, you'd think that Sephiroth would still be around. Yet there's no more remnants, no more new Geostigma cases, no negative lifestream showing up... all these things to me suggest that Sephiroth is dead. If he was still around somewhere, he'd be trying his damnest to make himself known, yet he isn't. More than likely because he can't, because he's dead.

Quote:
 
So from what I gather, as long as Sephiroth refuses to merge with the Lifestream, the Black Lifestream will continue to exist.

You gather incorrectly. If the negative lifestream was still around after ACC, we would have heard about it or seen it. Aerith destroyed it.

Quote:
 
As for what exactly causes Geostigma, I think it's a combination of things: Sephiroth, Jenova cells in the Lifestream, fear, and belief. We know Sephiroth is behind it. In CoL he talks about spreading 'his' stigma, as he refers to it. He's certainly the source, and contact with the Black Lifestream seems to be what starts the disease off.

Yes he is the source and he's doing it with the Jenova cells. There's Jenova cells in the negative lifestream. That's part of the deal. So when that spreads around, Geostigma gets spread around. While in some cases there is fear or mental weakness that increases the chances of Geostigma, this isn't always the case.

Here's the quote you're talking about:
"Despite mankind’s troubles, life on the planet had returned to normal. The man became aware of the increase in spirits— they could be called the darkness of the heart— melding with the Lifestream. He cherished that lingering darkness. Even more so when he considered that the stigma he had left on the surface was what created it. He thought that he could possibly enjoy himself with that. Filling the Lifestream with this darkness."
It also shows us that Geostigma created the Negative Lifestream.

Quote:
 
So following the logic that Nanaki presents, Geostigma did not exist until Sephiroth brought it down on everyone, otherwise the Cetra who fought Jenova would have created a materia or a cure for it. This is only a theory, but it does make sense.

Yep.

Quote:
 
So from what this suggests, Geostigma isn't contagious the way other diseases are. Quarantines don't effect it's spread

That's right, Geostigma is not contagious.

Quote:
 
A lot of these theories presented in CoY about fear, despair, and being faint of heart causing the stigma make sense. Sephiroth works through manipulation, praying on people's fears and weaknesses- he does this repeatedly with Cloud. When the Lifestream spilled over the Planet, they were certainly afraid, which made them easy prey to the stigma. The more people believe that the stigma is contagious and will spread, the more people contract the disease.

Again, although many cases do involve fear and such, this isn't always the case. If we take Nomura's word for it that Cloud was happy, he was still able to get Geostigma even though he was happy with his life.

Quote:
 
She is surrounded by people with the stigma for over a year and never catches it herself.

She doesn't have Jenova cells in her.

Quote:
 
Some more sources that say the stigma isn't contagious.

Yes, we've pretty much known Geostigma isn't contagious since 2006.

So yes. You need Jenova cells in order to catch the stigma. Therefore, the only way to get rid of it is to get rid of the cells. The only person who had Jenova cells affect his genes was Sephiroth, so Cloud could get rid of his cells without it harming him. That's what I'm trying to get at here.
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Hades' Daughter
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I really don't know much about this matter myself but I'm not one to believe that Sephiroth, the black lifestream, or that Jenova cells have been destroyed or that they can completely ever be destroyed. Sephiroth is essentially a part of Cloud as seen in AC and portrayed in AU games like KH. Aside from Sephiroth saying that he can never be just a memory, we also have quotes saying things like if Sephiroth exists, so must Aerith. It doesn't sound to me like that's something they would say about a guy who can just be killed off.

I think what much of what Alantie posted makes sense, especially when she talked about what Geostigma is composed of:
Quote:
 
As for what exactly causes Geostigma, I think it's a combination of things: Sephiroth, Jenova cells in the Lifestream, fear, and belief.

Jenova cells and Sephiroth don't necessarily have to be destroyed for Geostigma to heal as long as you can take out one of the other components. Take Cloud, for example. We've seen a couple of occasions where his geostigma becomes worse when his guilt kicks in. I'd say that a big part of it has to do with one's mental state and even if Sephiroth or Jenova cells aren't destroyed, if a person's mind can be healed then it, in a sense, cures the Geostigma.

Quex:
Quote:
 
If we take Nomura's word for it that Cloud was happy, he was still able to get Geostigma even though he was happy with his life.


I wouldn't take Nomura's words there to be completely true. I do think that Cloud *wanted* to be happy and so he was positive about the idea of starting his new life but I think much of that was just to hide the grief and guilt that was there all along. Even Tifa questioned whether the smile he'd given her was real or not. I don't think he was truly happy until after his guilt was fully banished. He doesn't find his Promised Land, his place of supreme happiness, until the very end of the movie.

We really don't know exactly when he contracted Geostigma but I assume it's after he goes back to visit the site where Aerith died since that kind of happens really early on in CoT. Things started to really go downhill after that and we don't learn that he has the disease until much later on.
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