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| Reminiscene Of Final Fantasy Vii; SE made me angry!!!! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 25 2009, 12:34 PM (1,268 Views) | |
| Anastar | Jun 1 2009, 03:30 PM Post #16 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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I can understand that - you wanted the story to focus on Cloud finding Aerith. Instead, it focused on Cloud battling the continuing legacy of Sephiroth via the SHM and Geostigma. However, I also think part of FFVII AC was about Cloud finding Aerith. Very honestly, I've always felt that he tried to meet her by going to her Church. He was obviously going to her Church long before he told anyone about it in CoT. But he was unable to do so because his guilt got in the way. I thought MoTP showed a beautiful parallel between Dyne and Eleanor and Aerith and Cloud. Eleanor's had always been with Dyne, but he was unaware of her due to his guilt. The minute Aerith touched Dyne's arm, his guilt started to fade. It wasn't until then that Dyne realized that Eleanor was right there with him. From the point where Aerith touched, the blood dried up into tissue, detached from Dyne and wore away. Then, Dyne's left arm started to fade away. "...Will I be able to join the Planet someday?" "I'm sure you will." "When Marlene's reaches the end of her lifespan and comes here, will I be able to come out and greet her as part of the Planet...?" Aerith looked up at Dyne's face and nodded smiling. "Because you're starting all over again. It will be all right." Dyne's faint face could now be seen clearly. It was different from the person she met in Corel Prison. It was the true face of someone who sincerely loved his family and hometown more than anyone else. He could not return to the peaceful times when he would sweat in the mines of Corel before the tragedy happened. Both Dyne and Aerith knew that. Even so, the hearts of people can be rebuilt. They can stand up and face those sad painful memories. If they couldn't then the absurdity would truly spread throughout the world. "What can I do in this Sea of Mako? No, it's what I must do... I'll continue thinking about the ones I killed for a while. Until the day I can merge with the Planet." "Yes, I think that's a good idea." "Aerith, I'm sorry how I treated you. I'm glad I met you." "You didn't treat me bad at all." "You really are a stout-hearted one." For the first time, Dyne smiled from the bottom of his heart and quietly, his image faded away. The tip of the gun on his left arm disappeared. "After dying and experiencing all that, I can finally stop turning my back against Barret and Marlene. Let me say my thanks..." Just before he sunk into the Lifestream, Aerith saw it. She saw Mako particles make their way towards Dyne and huddle together on him as if they had a will of their own. Dyne's faint, surprised voice could be heard. "Eleanor?" The same basically happened when Aerith touched Cloud's arm in the back to back flower field scene. Shortly after she did that, Cloud said he felt lighter (guilt starting to fade). Right after that, Cloud saw Aerith face to face in the Bahamut hand reach scene. So Aerith was right there with Cloud all along - but his guilt had prevented him from realizing it. ![]() Then Calling showed him actually meeting with her in the flower field. He'd found her at last. At least, that's the way I saw it. |
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| hikarukaze | Jun 1 2009, 03:50 PM Post #17 |
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No no... I don't mind that. The game is too good, it's the best FF game! I get bored when watching FFVIIAC not because it doesn't tell much about :cleris:, I don't like the movie because of "its story"! I'm sure that Cloud is trying to meet Aerith in FFVIIAC, so I don't have any problem of with the movie. The FFVIIAC story's too bad with how good the game is. I'm a fan of FFVII original and I don't really enjoy FFVIIAC or... FFVIIDOC. Because their stories are bad, not because of !
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| aerisbolt | Jun 1 2009, 04:06 PM Post #18 |
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Beautiful Paradox
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Hmm...Sephiroth stronger than Aerith. I see it as it takes longer to rebuild something than destroy, but if given the time, many times it is stronger after the rebuilding process (not always but go with me on this :lol: ) Aerith is the Protector of the Planet, she and her people are to help heal the Planet and keep it viable. Sephiroth is about hate and destruction, and the planet was already hurting due to the greed of humans and their treatment of the Planet. So the foundation was already weakened, Sephiroth was the wrecking ball. Because of the way Aerith is and her role she needs the help of the people on the planet to stop the bleeding so the healing can happen. Thus I don't think she is weaker than Sephiroth, just that in what she chooses to do (heal) time is a factor and thus it is easier for Sephiroth to flash his power around because their goals are opposite. It is really a beautiful thing the creators have done, because healing many times has so many aspects that have to come together to make it possible, and in this case, Avalanche get to be a part of it, use their "power" to be able to allow Aerith to use hers the way she wants and needs to. They all come together to heal, not only the planet, but themselves. |
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| Beatrix | Jun 1 2009, 05:13 PM Post #19 |
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Advanced Member
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She did, but handling the lifestream/diving through it was new to her... When she was alive, Aerith just heard voices/saw people... when she died, she had to adapt to her new form... and new abilities too.
I wasn't talking about when she died. I mean... Aerith's prayer ended up blocked by Sephiroth's will... and she didn't do anything to stop him from the lifestream... or couldn't. So in the end, maybe Aerith realized that Holy would not be able to do what she has first wished... and so, she didn't bother to fight Sephiroth's will and focused on finding another plan... the lifestream. Like you said, she must be strong to do that... but maybe she needed time, calling the will of people and everything. You know, some FF7 fans who happened to not like Aerith told me once that Aerith was disappointing as an Ancient (some of those fans actually think Terra from FF6 was a better "specimen" as the last of her kind), that her sacrifice was pointless, and that Sephiroth blocked her prayer without any difficulties. I don't agree of course... I don't think Aerith was a joke to Sephiroth and made pointless decisions... I think that things turned out more complicated than she thought... and Aerith had to find a solution... which she found, by the way. |
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| Sternenstaub | Jun 1 2009, 07:07 PM Post #20 |
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I agree that Aeris was "special" despite being dead even in FFVII. She could hear voices from the dead so I'm not bothered by her being able to talk to Cloud in AC. However, i didn't see Ifalna dissolve Sephi into rain before he killed her daughter, or open the door in the Shinra building where she was imprisioned. As for Sephiroths powers, I think most of these things where Jenovas actions while Sephi was wasting away in a mako block in the northern crater. I didn't get this part about resurrecting his body - was there anything about that mentioned in the actual game? As far as I remember he was just hanging there, physically pretty much dead and rottet. Yes, aeris usmmoned lifestream in the end, I guess I can't talk that one down :lol: . However, it was much better done, than anything she did in AC, with the game actually offering an explanation why she couldn't do it before and so on. It felt great an heroic and brought tears to my eyes, in AC it felt like a really lame plot device to me. I always though (and still do) the promised land being something else than just death or a special place in death or the ability to substain your soul in the lifestream. After all, aren't the Cetra the ones being most closest to the planet and his cycles of life, meaning that ther spirit energy is to be reborn as a new soul? So, I'm not pleased with the answer AC offered. As for Aeris living on in Clouds consciousness, Tifa said in the games ending "Yeah, let's go meet her." like someplace she is able to visit as well. Of course, there is a special connection between Cloud and Aeris, I wouldn't dare deny that, but it's not the interpretation I took out of the games "promised land" concept.
Hhm, I think as well, that's pretty much how AC portrayed it, but IMO it doesn't fit into the games ending at all. Cloud said he wanted to meet Aeris in the promised land, he surely wasn't talking about in "2 years" or something. He was going to go there right away, but instead AC made him get depressed again, unable of meeting her. FFVII already wrapped all of this up and AC kinda put it on the line to go through all that again in the movie. That's the problem with sequels.
Just a thought concerning this point. Even though MOTP had it portrayed differently, I got the impression from the game that Aeris wasn't in the lifestream after her dead. Cloud said something on the Highwind, I think shortly after the infamous Highwind scene with Tifa, that "she is stuck" because of Sephiroth, so that her soul couldn't return to the planet because Sephiroth blocked her. That explains why she couldn't talk to the party during the course of the game and why she appeared to Cloud just after he defeated Sephiroth for good and was then able to summon the lifestream, because now she was actually part of it. |
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| Anastar | Jun 2 2009, 08:22 PM Post #21 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Okay, good point. We didn't see Ifalna showing powers like this during FFVII. However, we did see that the Cetra have powers after death. Why were spirits of the Cetra left to guard the black materia in the Temple of Ancients if they had no power to do so? As for Ifalna not saving Aerith's life, I've heard the theory raised that Aerith actually had to die in order to summon Holy. If that is correct, then Ifalna wouldn't save her for that reason. As for opening the prison door - there was no need, since Jenova did it, anyway.
No, it wasn't said in game. It was stated in the Reunion Files and FF Ultimania Omega that Sephiroth was resurrecting his own body in the Northern Crater. Here's from the FFVII Ultimania Omega translations at IGN (which also contains some info from the Reunion Files): -It's mentioned that after Sephiroth jumped into the Lifestream back in Nibelheim, his body dissolved, but because of his powerful will, he reformed it at the Northern Crater, where his life energy and Jenova's head were washed to. This most likely is why he only seemed to have a torso when he cast Meteor (he was still reforming his original body), and why the Ultimania Omega says that he was regenerating in the Northern Crater
Oh, I won't argue that. I thought it was portrayed much better in FFVII, too. I just mean that I don't feel that AC actually contradicted anything in FFVII about the powers of the Cetra.
I agree that it is. But the Promised Land isn't just one thing, either. It seems to be something different for each individual - whatever makes you happy. For the Cetra, the Promised Land is the Lifestream, as stated in MoTP. However, I think that the Promised Land is ultimately the Lifestream for everyone, in that the Lifestream permeates all material forms of existence. So whatever "thing" is your Promised Land, the Lifestream is what makes up that material form. I went into that further in this thread: The Promised Land Revisited
Did AC offer an answer to the Promised Land? I don't think it did. MoTP specified that, for the Cetra, it's the Lifestream. But nothing was said in the movie about the Promised Land.
I don't think Aerith living in Cloud's consciousness means that's the Promised Land. I take it to mean that Aerith's spirit is now in the Lifestream, so her consciousness is able to live in Cloud's consciousness because the Lifestream permeates Cloud's body due to his Mako enhancements. If anything, I'd say their Promised Land is the unification of their souls.
Oh, I agree. I got the same feeling from the game. I think the only reason they portrayed it that way was because they were worried about the reaction of Cloti fans. If Cloud was shown searching for Aerith in the Promised Land immediately, that would certify his love for Aerith immediately and leave no room for an interpretation that Cloud might love Tifa. So instead, they settled on a compromise. I mean, Final Fantasy Tactics showed Cloud searching for the Promised Land and hinted that he wanted to find Aerith there. Nomura said that the ending of KH could also be interpreted as an answer to questions about Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII. Nomura said that in an interview with the Official U.S. Playstation Magazine in October, 2002, issue 61, page 139-140: Scan of page 140. So yes, I think SE settled on a compromise simply so that they wouldn't completely destroy Cloti ideas. <_< However, it does leave room for the idea that Cloud searched for Aerith in the Church. Nothing ever specifies exactly when Cloud started going to the Church, so - for all we know - it may have been as soon as he arrived back in Midgar/Edge. If you remember, Cloud's also able to see Aerith's spirit in the Church during FFVII, and that scene is NOT a glitch as many people claim. So why wouldn't he search for her there?
I completely agree. The game showed that Sephiroth was able to block Aerith's will. Avalanche went to the Northern Crater in order to free her will from Sephiroth's control. It wasn't until Cloud defeated Sephiroth that Aerith's spirit appeared to Cloud. That also explains why Aerith wasn't able to speak to Cloud during Disk Two. |
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| Myko | Jun 3 2009, 05:04 AM Post #22 |
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Hopeless Romantic
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I agree with the two of you. Though I see it as once Seph killed Aerith, it was like he kidnapped her and held her captive, so Cloud had to save her one more time so she could save everyone and him over and over again. =3 It's a beautiful thing, really. Saving the world = Saving Aerith. |
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| Anastar | Jun 3 2009, 05:36 PM Post #23 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Oh, I agree. That's essentially what happened - Sephiroth was holding her captive and Cloud had to rescue her again. However, I doubt that Sephiroth ever thought that Cloud would be *able* to free her. I see it more that Sephy wanted to pull Cloud in for a final fight so that Sephy could defeat Cloud, too. One other thing I wanted to comment on in Sternenstaub's post:
There's a difference between a soul being part of the Lifestream and "returning to the Planet". Returning to the Planet means that your individuality essentially dissolves and that your spiritual energy melds with the spirit energy of other spirits. So Aerith's spirit was in the Lifestream - but even at the end of AC/ACC, she still hasn't actually "returned to the Planet". I sorta wonder if she will return to the Planet any time soon? I think she may wait until Jenova/Sephiroth no longer poses any threat to the Planet.
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| Sternenstaub | Jun 7 2009, 07:24 PM Post #24 |
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Member
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hhm, I admit, we do not know the answer to that, but I don't think so. There was nothing explicitly said for or against that theory but it kinda doesn't fit Aeris mood when she goes to the Temple: She didn't exactly know what awaited her there or what she would have to do. She felt something call to her, some secret meant for her alone and she said she would "come back". Maybe she had to die and just didn't know but her cetra heritage, maybe the voices in her head guiding her to her death, unknowingly, is not how her farewell was portrayed and a horrible thought, IMO. Besides, it is repeatedly stated, that the creators wanted death to be swift and sudden, as something that leaves you empty and in despair and not as a great sacrifice, which it would have been, if she really had to die from the beginning. Yes, the Cetra had power after death. Especially the power to remain either in the lifestream or even on the earth- however if Aeris ends up as one of those strange purple things in the temple of the ancients, I'd better she dissolves now... Didn't quite seem, like these things were persons, unchanged, but more like some aspect of them, their "will" stayed behind for the needed task. Admited, maybe their personality just withered away after hundreds of years of solitude. What I'm trying to say is that these powers were integrated through bits and pieces in the actual story and made sense for being there. They weren't used as plot device just to keep the story going at every turn. Slightly bad example maybe: When Cloud falls into the lifestream in FFVII, Tifa and him have to unreavel the truth on their own. Cloud has to go through all this himself and more importantly the player has to do it as well. And once everything is resolved they are guided back. I like to think that Aeris was there and guided them back to the real world, but after I just said, that she wasn't in the lifestream at that time, it couldn't be. But just as a thought, after everything is done and fought for and all riddles are solved, Aeris secret voice is there, implied to guide them back. That is beautiful. In AC she kinda just pops out and cleans the house: saving the hero, healing the sick, dissolving the villains. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if the original story of the movie would have been better and you actually got the feeling of achieving anything on your own, before she settles it. I agree that the ancients had powers but they were not dominant during the course of the game, not so unconditioned powerful, that's why it gives the strong impression that "Aeris waves her magic wand and makes all evil disappear". That is a strong contradiction to Aeris role throughout the game.
I agree with that, but I think, that it ultimately turns out to be the lifestream, is to easy an answer. It could be a non-material form as well, like a spiritual concept or something.
Well, in FFVII we leave with Cloud stating, that he can meet Aeris in the promised land. Deliberately not answering were or what that is. In AC we find Aeris is still just dead, thus defining "in the lifestream". That's how I see it, at least.
Ah, never thought about that.
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| Anastar | Jun 17 2009, 02:05 PM Post #25 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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True that nothing was explicitly said to prove or disprove that theory. I was just offering one possible reason that Ifalna may not have intervened. Another possible reason is that Ifalna may have returned to the Planet at that point so that she was unable to materialize and intervene. Before anyone thinks that means that the possibility of Aerith returning to the Planet would interfere with her meeting Cloud after Cloud dies, that's not indicated in MoTP. Aerith tells Dyne in MoTP that he will meet Marlene some day when she returns to the Planet, and Eleanor reunites with Dyne in MoTP even though she'd already returned to the Planet. The other thing is that Nomura says that Aerith's consciousness lives inside of Cloud. That being the case, her consciousness would continue to be in contact with him even if she returned to the Planet. Remember the voices that Tifa heard when she fell into the Lifestream at the Northern Crater? Those were the voices of spirits who had returned to the Planet. So they may not be able to manifest or take action after returning to the Planet, but the consciousness of spirits continue.
True - that may be just because they'd been there for hundreds of years. However, it may also be that they didn't think it necessary to appear as they once had. Remember that in CoL Aerith specifically said [spoiler=Acc Spoilers]that she wanted to meet Cloud "the way he knows me". So she wanted to appear the way she always had.[/spoiler] In another thread, I talked about how that may be possible for her to manifest in physical form, even though she's a spirit. Basically, the Lifestream is spirit energy. Even in our own universe, the state that matter takes (gaseous, liquid, or solid) depends on the amount of energy found in the molecules and atoms. If Aerith is able to manipulate that energy with her will (and it's evident that she can, since her will helped to move the Lifestream), then she'd be able to manifest in a different state.
Okay. And I'm saying that I didn't see Aerith's form in AC as being a plot device. I see it as following from the premises given to us in FFVII.
Okay, but she is in the Lifestream during FFVII. She's also in the Lifestream during AC. She's just manipulating the spirit energy to take a different form. (Maybe it's simple to me coz my parents were Trekkies who watched Star Trek all the time while I was growing up. The transformation of matter from one form to another was shown all the time in that series. Transporters, anyone? :lol:)
The only explanation I can think of is that once you've returned to the Planet, you're unable to manifest like Aerith did in AC. That would also explain why Aerith didn't intervene in DoC when the appearance of Chaos heralds the coming of Omega.
But a spiritual concept would still be part of the Lifestream. The Lifestream is conscious energy. The wisdom of the Ancients is contained in the Lifestream because it is conscious.
But if the Promised Land is what makes you happy, then she hadn't found her happiness yet even though she was dead. According to Clerith theory, that's because she hadn't met Cloud yet. (That's even indicated in CoL). Once Cloud and Aerith "meet" as we think they did in the flower field after Calling, she will find her happiness and her Promised Land. Here's how Angelalex said it in his essay Aerith Lives in Cloud's Heart: In the world of Final Fantasy VII, the Lifestream is already a 'bonding of souls' on a macro scale. 'Returning to the Planet' is simply allowing one's self to fully experience the other souls of the world. The 'Promised Land' for most people, therefore, is simply a spiritual unity with everyone else. It is a bonding of souls on a massive scale. The Promised Land would essentially be equivalent to Heaven in our own culture. It seems that Aerith has done the same on a micro scale - or a one to one basis - with Cloud. Essentially, Aerith has bound her soul and her consciousness with Cloud in the way most souls do with the Lifestream. Instead of her soul joining the Promised Land of the Lifestream, Aerith's Promised Land is joining her soul with Cloud's. |
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The game is too good, it's the best FF game! I get bored when watching FFVIIAC not because it doesn't tell much about :cleris:, I don't like the movie because of "its story"! I'm sure that Cloud is trying to meet Aerith in FFVIIAC, so I don't have any problem of
with the movie. The FFVIIAC story's too bad with how good the game is. I'm a fan of FFVII original and I don't really enjoy FFVIIAC or... FFVIIDOC. Because their stories are bad, not because of 

I don't think it did. MoTP specified that, for the Cetra, it's the Lifestream. But nothing was said in the movie about the Promised Land.
The transformation of matter from one form to another was shown all the time in that series. Transporters, anyone? :lol:)
12:29 AM Jul 11