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| Did Tifa Know The Real Cloud?; A new perpsective | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 29 2008, 05:18 PM (2,690 Views) | |
| Alan Bates | Dec 30 2008, 07:53 PM Post #16 |
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That one guy
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Keep in mind at that point in the game, Tifa hasn't seen Cloud for years and years and never really knew him that well before hand. The only things she really mentions about his personality is that he used to get into fights alot. Cloud shows up wearing the uniform of the organization that they're fighting against and telling stories Tifa knows aren't true and somehow she thinks its best to just go with it? That's not just selfish, that's potentially lethal for the whole party. How can she really trust Cloud, especially when it's shown that the only reason he was sticking around at first was because of the money. Let's face it, he wasn't exactly a very trustworthy character early on.
Or it could have forced him to seek help and try to find out why his memory wasn't right. A bunch of different things could have happened. Tifa didn't say anything because she thought of only the bad things happening and thought Cloud wouldn't be able to take it. Considering how poorly she seems to understand him, there's a good chance she wasn't even close to right. Another thing to consider is that at the time, the still had Aeris with them and she had certain abilities that the others couldn't match. Among them she was shown to be able to speak to Cloud in his dreams from long distances and talk to the planet. Whose to say what would have happened if she tries to get into his mind and help him out. |
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| Chibica | Dec 30 2008, 08:28 PM Post #17 |
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Suburbia
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Sorry if I mis-interprete anything, I need time to read those posts through.
Before I start on Tifa's part, I think you kinda forget the fact that Aerith knows the real Cloud exists in FF7. ..Or we're done that discussion already? *is absent for too long* In that scene, when Cloud bent down and moaned in pain, crying "Urrgh...what have I done?", Aerith's reply is "You haven't done anything! It's not your fault!" In FF7 Ultimania Omega, Aerith's file page, the ccaption of this pic confirms us that "Aerith says so because she knows it's not the fault of real Cloud". Since I've told you I have no books at hand, you gotta wait till I got the page number. Urm, I love Tifa a lot, really. *duuno why I feel that I will be damned if I didn't claim first* Tifa is hesitatant at telling the truth about Nibelhem because she is afraid it might destroy her understanding of "Cloud". In Cosmo canyon, she even asks Cloud to confirm this "faith". Tifa has her own weakness at that time, but she overcomes it at the end, deciding to delve into Lifestream and clarify the past with Cloud together. But before this event, to my surprise, she does not have courage to mention the childhood promise to help confirm real!Cloud does exist when Sephiroth says Cloud's a puppet. I have trouble figuring out why... Can anyone help explain? Tifa has weakness in believing what she believes, unless it is especially confirmed by Cloud. I say so becuz her profile in FF UO has proved it right. After Lifestream Event, she is stronger, and gets to know Cloud much better. I believe Tifa knows Cloud quite well ever since then. She understands his fear/guilt in AC, and I don't think she's still cling to her hero fantasy. She is more expective to see Cloud grow out of his trouble, like a mother/devoted friend if you ask me. .....I'm sorry I didn't help much. But I'll reply more once I finish reading through posts. ![]() EDIT:
I don't blame her for not telling the truth, like I said above, she has her own weakness in belief. Plus, the only thread she holds is her childhood promise, and a blur image of kido!Cloud who she did not get to know much.
It's an unfair comparison, Alan. Aerith has her innate ability(half Cetra blood) to sense one's secrets, and to see through (confirmed in numerous Ultimania-z and in BC). However, before Lifestream Event, I think Tifa not merely knows a fake Soldier!Cloud, she also confronts an un-social Cloud in FF7, which also belongs to originl Cloud, aint it? .....Maybe we should define what real!Cloud in FF7 presents first..?:dizzy: Anyway, I truly believe she gets to know him much, much well after she takes up determination and faces the past facts. |
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| Anastar | Dec 30 2008, 09:54 PM Post #18 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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To everybody: If people wanna say they like Tifa or don't like Tifa, fine. I don't care if they do, or if they don't like her. It's completely irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. @Fimbulvetr
You've ignored every single aspect of my original argument, Fimbulvetr. It seems to me as if you are deliberately trying to change the topic into an assessment of Tifa's characcter because you don't want to admit that Tifa didn't know the real Cloud in FFVII. The evidence is quite obvious, if you ask me. My point is this: If Cloud wasn't "the real Cloud" before the Lifestream event, then Tifa didn't know him when she fell in love with him. Cloti claim that Aerith can't love Cloud because she didn't know him. If you accept the Cloti premise that "the real Cloud" didn't exist before Lifestream event, then Tifa didn't know "the real Cloud" when she fell in love with him, either. Stick to the point, please. Also, Fimbulvetr, I am putting you on moderator preview of your posts for now. I'm sorry that you feel "picked on", but you are completely disrupting the topic. We are trying to discuss the point I made, yet you completely avoid that topic by trying to get people arguing about Tifa's character. Your future replies to this topic will be accepted for posting only if you stick to the point without disruptingn the topic. If you have any questions, please PM me about it. Thank you. ~Aly To everyone else: Most of you have been replying to Fimbulvetr instead of me! :lol: Fimbulvetr's way off-topic and she's been very disruptive. Let's keep this discussion on topic, okay? The point in my original post completely disproves the idea that Aerith doesn't know the real Cloud. It disproves their idea by showing that if Aerith didn't know the real Cloud, then neither did Tifa. Apparantly, Fimbulvetr doesn't like that idea. So she was just trying to get everyone off-topic by yelling about our "abuse" of Tifa's character. <_< |
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| Alantie | Dec 31 2008, 03:49 AM Post #19 |
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Dreams the world far away
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Mm, missed out on quite a bit while I was away! :lol: I won't bother commenting on some of the things that are off topic, since it merely makes me laugh and would most likely start an arguement. Anyway, to your original topic Aly. Did Tifa know the real Cloud before he was revealed in the Lifestream event? The real Cloud was right there in front of her, but like I said before, she had this ideal of Cloud from her childhood, and she had a hard time seeing past it to understand the vulnerable weak Cloud. With the fact that Tifa never even spoke to Cloud until that time at the well, she couldn't have known him. Like you said, her memories of Cloud as a child are of a little boy hanging around the edges of things, a boy who got into fights, a boy who wanted to be a hero like Sephiroth. That doesn't reveal to Tifa at all what kind of person Cloud is at that time- not to mention that people can change over the course of five years. Memories of a little boy are no comparison to understanding the personality of a grown man. |
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| Anastar | Dec 31 2008, 05:28 AM Post #20 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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I totally agree that she was seeing an ideal vision of Cloud as a SOLDIER hero rather than who he really was. After all, that's what she was looking in the newspapers for after he left town. She was hoping to see a write up about him like Sephiroth got all the time. I totally agree about that, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that Cloti's claim that Aerith couldn't get to know the real Cloud until after the Lifestream event. Fimbulvetr even said that in her post in this thread. So, if Aerith didn't get to know "the real Cloud" til after the Lifestream event, how could Tifa? Tifa hardly knew Cloud as a child in Nibelheim, which is stated in the Lifestream event. Tifa never communicated with Cloud after he left town. So Tifa was just getting to know Cloud at the beginning of FFVII, just like Aerith. If Cloti's say that Aerith didn't know the real Cloud, then how could Tifa get to know the real Cloud before the Lifestream event? Cloti's say that Tifa stays with Cloud in Mideel because she loves Cloud, but that's before the Lifestream event. According to Cloti's, that's before he "becomes the real Cloud". So how come Cloti's think that Tifa knows the real Cloud when she falls in love with him, but Aerith doesn't? Seems like a total contradiction to me. |
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| Vanelo | Dec 31 2008, 07:30 AM Post #21 |
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One Emerged From Shadows Into Light
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They need Cloud to be Zack for most of the game in order for most of their arguments to work. If Cloud is truly himself and only using Zack's memories to hide his own failures, then Aeris actually cares for Cloud for who he is, and not who he resembles. And likewise, Cloud isn't showing affection simply to imitate Zack, he's showing his own feelings and acting on his own will. And now the playing field is even. Which is bad news for Clotis because Cloud spends a lot more time interacting with Aeris in disc 1. Probably more than he spends with Tifa in the whole game, especially if you date Aeris. Plus Cloud still mentions Aeris a lot after she dies, often in a way that implicates romantic feeling. But then apply the "he was Zack" logic... suddenly, Clotis think it's ok to throw all that out, and only Tifa gets to interact with Cloud. It's a stupid and false loophole that Cloti's somehow think is a valid argument. Honestly, I never understood how Cloud could be Zack in the first place. They have very different personalities; Zack is very upbeat, talkative, and energetic, while Cloud is introverted and cold. So yeah, Tifa knew the real Cloud. And so did Aeris, and she showed a lot more genuine affection for him than Tifa. But Clotis can't admit that they both knew only the real Cloud because it destroys their home field advantage. Put Aeris and Tifa on equal footing, and Aeris will always win. |
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| Anastar | Dec 31 2008, 02:39 PM Post #22 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Exactly, Vanelo. That's the reason I'm bringing this up. I agree - that's exactly why Cloti's keep using the "Aerith didn't know the real Cloud" argument. If you apply the same Cloti "Cloud was Zack" logic to Tifa, then Tifa couldn't have known "the real Cloud" any more than Aerith. Since Tifa hardly knew Cloud as a kid in Nibelheim and she didn't communicate with him for seven years, then both Tifa and Aerith were just getting to know Cloud at the beginning of FFVII. So the same Cloti "Cloud was Zack" logic would have to apply to Tifa as well as Aerith. When you do that, it's obvious what a huge fallacy their "Cloud was Zack" argument is. They're just contradicting themselves. If Tifa got to know the real Cloud before the Lifestream event, then so did Aerith. EDIT: For anyone interested, I see that Fimbulvetr has started a topic at the Northern Crater called Tifa Discussion. (Thank you, Fimbulvetr) If any of you would like to discuss her viewpoint further, feel free to discuss it there. |
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| Alantie | Jan 1 2009, 05:01 AM Post #23 |
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Dreams the world far away
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Ah, sorry, Aly- I was just trying to point out that Tifa couldn't have known the real Cloud until the start of FFVII, which feeds into the Cloti belief that Tifa was in love with Cloud and knew the real him, yada yada yada. Anyway. The logic is a huge contradiction, I agree. If the 'real' Cloud did not appear until after the Lifestream event, then Tifa could not have been in love with the real Cloud. She would have been in love with Zack, just like Cloti try to claim Aerith was, since Cloud was supposedly Zack up until after the Lifestream event when he became his real self again. Like Vanelo pointed out, it's their way of trying to keep Aerith out of things, but it doesn't work since it only makes the same apply for Tifa as well. |
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| Anastar | Jan 1 2009, 06:45 PM Post #24 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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It's *me* that should be saying I'm sorry! You make a very good point there, coz there's no way Cloud and Tifa had a close relationship as kids. All of the evidence negates that they did. Tifa, of course, states that she and Cloud didn't know one another well. Tifa was surprised when Cloud called her out to the well, and she was late. Cloud and Tifa both state that Tifa hung out with a group of three other kids. Cloud also says that he *wanted* to hang out with them, but didn't. Cloud also says that the day Tifa's mother died was the first time he came to her room. There were like 3 other boys in her room when Cloud arrived, and one boy acted very surprised to see Cloud. When Tifa started up the mountain, Cloud was trailing at a distance behind the other boys.Also, when you get one of Tifa's limit breaks, they arrive in Tifa's room and Cloud recalls a letter he read that Tifa got from another boy. That letter made it pretty clear that this other boy had a crush on Tifa. So Tifa was corresponding with other boys, but not Cloud. There's just no evidence whatsoever that they were close as children before Cloud left town to join SOLDIER. All the more reason to think that Cloud and Tifa were just getting to know one another at the start of FFVII - when Cloti's say that he wasn't the real Cloud.
So it seems to me that, if Cloti's want to claim that Tifa knows the real Cloud by the time she falls in love with him in FFVII, then they have to admit that he was the real Cloud before the Lifestream event. Otherwise, there's no way Tifa could get to know the real Cloud before she fell in love with him.
Absolutely - I totally agree. By the way, I agree with everyone else who pointed out other ways that indicate Tifa didn't know the real Cloud. You all made very good points, and I'm sorry that our discussion got disrupted.
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| Alantie | Jan 1 2009, 11:19 PM Post #25 |
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Dreams the world far away
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Oh, it's ok, Aly! I was setting the foundation for Tifa not knowing Cloud when they were children, which as we know Cloti use to try and make a case for Tifa knowing the real Cloud before the Lifestream event. So that's an outright false statement.
Ah, I don't remember that! Interesting!! Y'know, you got to wonder- since Cloud goes away and is on this mission to be a hero, why doesn't Tifa bother corresponding with him? Aerith wrote Zack letters. So why didn't Tifa write to Cloud if she supposedly loved him? They had no contact at all until Cloud returned to Nibleheim with Zack and Sephiroth. Not keeping in contact with the one you supposedly love is a huge sign of a problem. : D
Exactly. And if their logic is to be followed, Tifa only knew the real Cloud a few days or so before the Highwind scene, where some Cloti believe they had sex. Which, given the holes we've brought up in their logic, paints Cloud and Tifa both as quite trashy to sleep with someone they barely know.
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| Alan Bates | Jan 2 2009, 02:45 AM Post #26 |
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That one guy
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But you'll note that she does mention how she watched for news and information on what he did and what he was up to, which tends to paint her more as somebody that was loking for a hero rather than intrested in Cloud the person. |
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| Anastar | Jan 2 2009, 05:02 AM Post #27 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Yeah... I just looked it up, and it's wasn't when you get Tifa's final limit break. It's during an optional response during Cloud's flashback of the Nibelheim incident in Kalm. He says he went to Tifa's house, but she wasn't there and went into her room. He found a letter on her desk, and he reads it: Cloud "It was a letter addressed to Tifa from the son of the guy that runs the General Store..." "Tifa, how are you? I just arrived in Midgar eight days ago." "Yesterday, all of Nibelheim got together to welcome me. The only person that we couldn't get a hold of was Cloud." "But everyone said he wasn't really that close to us. So even if we asked, he probably wouldn't have come anyway." "Well, enough about him." "Midgar is really something. But to tell the truth, I feel so behind on everything... so out of it." "Even the rooms of people in the slums are clean." "Right now I'm living in the slums, but I plan to move to a really nice room, like the ones I've seen in magazines, once I make some money." "...but, to do that, I guess I have to find a job fast. That's right. I still haven't found a job yet." "I lied to my parents and told them I found a great job with Shinra, Inc." "I wonder if it's too late to back. Sometimes I think I should've taken over my parents' store." There's an option to continue the letter. If you do, this is what it says: "I just made it here to Midgar but all I think about is Nibelheim." "Hey, Tifa... Is that stupid old water tower still working?" "Is the old man at the Inn doing well? Are my parents still at the shop everyday? Have any monsters attacked?" "And most of all, how are you, Tifa? It feels like I haven't seen you for years." "We were all talking about you last night." "Everyone likes you. But because everyone idolizes you, I couldn't very well stab them in the back." "I always acted cool, but actually, I was just afraid of being jilted." "Wow, if I keep writing like this, this'll become a love letter!" "So, I think I'll stop here. Take care. I'll write again." "P.S. Write me back, okay?" So it's pretty clear that Tifa was close to everyone in town but Cloud. :lol:
Exactly. If they had a *close* relationship, it seems they would've corresponded with one another, especially if they had a love relationship of any kind.
:lol: Exactly. But it even goes beyond that, coz Tifa actually stays in Mideel after they find a sick Cloud in the hospital there, and it's implied that she stays because she loves him. She even pets a dog before they find Cloud, and she asks the dog if it's lost someone it loves. That was before the Lifestream event - before Cloud supposedly became the real Cloud again. So how could she fall in love with the real Cloud unless he was himself at that time?
Exactly, Alan. Tifa even asked Cloud during the Promise scene if he'd be in the newspapers, along with asking if he'd save her IF he became famous. :lol: Sounds to me like all she wanted was a hero. You gotta wonder - say a real SOLDIER (like Zack) had moved to Nibelheim and got interested in Tifa. How long would she have remained interested in Cloud? Something tells me she would've forgotten about Cloud real fast. :rolleyes: |
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| Chibica | Jan 2 2009, 06:44 PM Post #28 |
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Suburbia
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..Can I ask your opinions of why would Tifa do that back then? I do not get it rather well... Why did Tifa suddenly seem to have interests in Cloud, and tried to find information about him after he left the village? According to her words, lots of villagers left to become famous, no? Why Cloud, specifically? Because he used to made a promise with her? Or just because he vowed to become a Soldier? Tifa met Zack in Nibelheim mission, but she still clings to a chance meeting with a Soldier!Cloud, wearing like a showgirl to impress him.. Her behaviors is like "looking for her boyfriend", but I thought she still did not know him any a bit during that time (Cloud's personality, etc.). Sorry if the answer to this question is too obvious or too easy.
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| Anastar | Jan 2 2009, 07:27 PM Post #29 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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I've always thought it was because he said he'd become a SOLDIER. He told her at the well that he'd become like Sephiroth. That was her idea of perfect!boyfriend, and it was someone from Nibelheim. You have to remember that Sephiroth hadn't gone nuts at that time, either. That's her idea of a hero - a knight in shining armor who'd rescue a damsel in distress. Funny how Cloud essentially did that for Aerith a number of times, but not Tifa - unless you wanna count rescuing Tifa from Don Corneo. :lol: Like you said, it seems to me that Tifa was in "looking for a boyfriend" mode - but that just makes me think even more that she really didn't know him that well. Zack visited Nibelheim, yes, but he didn't actually live there. She just got introduced to Zack. If Zack had actually moved to town, lived there for a few years, and showed interest in her, I bet she woulda forgotten about Cloud real fast. |
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| Chibica | Jan 2 2009, 07:57 PM Post #30 |
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Suburbia
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Well, he did come to her when she was badly injured by Sephy back then...it's just kinda late. Like her slight grumble in AC: "You're late", as well as a caption in FF7 10th Anni-Ultimania: Cloud always arrives some minutes late.I'm not blame on her hero fancy..Everyone has their own fancy in youth, whether it sometimes is unrealistic. I just think it odd to ~suddenly~ aim at Cloud, because they were not even close when he made that promise. And...and I thought there should be more than one who left to become a Soldier, like Sephy? Ermm....again, I don't know why I feel like claiming that I DO NOT HATE TIFA AND THIS IS NOT BASHING PLZ, or some of her fan will gang up on me...*shivers* |
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You make a very good point there, coz there's no way Cloud and Tifa had a close relationship as kids. All of the evidence negates that they did. Tifa, of course, states that she and Cloud didn't know one another well. Tifa was surprised when Cloud called her out to the well, and she was late. Cloud and Tifa both state that Tifa hung out with a group of three other kids. Cloud also says that he *wanted* to hang out with them, but didn't. Cloud also says that the day Tifa's mother died was the first time he came to her room. There were like 3 other boys in her room when Cloud arrived, and one boy acted very surprised to see Cloud. When Tifa started up the mountain, Cloud was trailing at a distance behind the other boys.
Well, he did come to her when she was badly injured by Sephy back then...it's just kinda late. Like her slight grumble in AC: "You're late", as well as a caption in FF7 10th Anni-Ultimania: Cloud always arrives some minutes late.

12:30 AM Jul 11