| Welcome to Cloud x Aerith forums! We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Did Tifa Know The Real Cloud?; A new perpsective | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 29 2008, 05:18 PM (2,688 Views) | |
| Anastar | Dec 29 2008, 05:18 PM Post #1 |
|
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
|
We've all heard it a million times: Cloti's claiming that Aerith didn't know the real Cloud. <_< We've discussed that issue a million times, but I'd like to look at it from a different angle. If (as Cloti's claim) the real Cloud didn't exist in FFVII til after the Lifestream event, then Tifa didn't get to know the real Cloud before she fell in love with him, either. Tifa and Cloud didn't know one another well as kids. Tifa actually states that during the Lifestream event: ![]() Here's the script: Young Cloud "You were so busy with your own things, it's only natural you don't remember me back then." Tifa "'Back then'?" Tifa "My room?" Young Cloud "It was my first time there." Tifa "Was... it?" Young Cloud "I only used to look up at it from outside." Tifa "Was that the first day you came into my room?" Tifa "...that's right. We lived next to each other. But I really didn't know you that well." Tifa "I've known you since we were children and I always thought we were close..." Tifa "Now that you mention it... I don't recall you ever being in my room..." Young Cloud "Tifa always used to be with this three-some." Tifa "...That's right." So if Cloud and Tifa didn't know one another well as children, who did Tifa ask to make the Promise? She hardly knew Cloud at that time. Who did she look in the newspapers for? She hardly knew Cloud at that time. Cloud and Tifa didn't correspond while he was gone for five years after leaving to join SOLDIER. So who did Tifa dress up in that awful cowboy outfit for in CC? She hadn't gotten to know Cloud well by then at all. If Tifa had a crush on Cloud at that time, then she had a crush on her idealized vision of Cloud as a hero in SOLDIER - something he never was. Cloud and Tifa didn't talk during the Nibelheim event. Tifa didn't even know he was there. Then Cloud was taken captive by Hojo for another two years, so he didn't correspond with Tifa during that time, either. So how could Tifa know the real Cloud? She didn't know him as a kid, they didn't correspond with one another after he left for SOLDIER, they didn't talk during the Nibelheim event. So exactly when did Tifa get to know the real Cloud before FFVII? There was literally *no chance* for Tifa to get to know the real Cloud before FFVII. Now - according to the Cloti's, Cloud wasn't the real Cloud all during Disk One of FFVII, so Tifa didn't get to know the real Cloud during Disk One, either. According to the Cloti's, Cloud wasn't the real Cloud until after the Lifestream event in Disk Two. Therefore, according to Cloti logic, Tifa didn't get to know the real Cloud until after the Lifestream event. Now - there's only 18 scenes between the Lifestream event and the Highwind scene. Since there's 144 scenes in the whole game, 18 scenes is a relatively short amount of time. During that time, Avalanche looks for the Key to the Ancients, fights some of the Weapons, parachutes into Midgar, faces the Sister Ray, and gets the huge materia. How many days did that take? Maybe a week? 10 days? Then the Highwind scene happens, and Tifa's hitting on Cloud in the High Affection version. According to how Cloti's see that scene, Tifa's only known the real Cloud for about a week - yet she and Cloud have sex. According to Cloti logic, Tifa couldn't have known the real Cloud very well before the Highwind scene. Yet, according to how Cloti's see that scene, Tifa tells Cloud that she loves him and they have sex. Yet, I don't see how Tifa could've gotten to know the real Cloud well enough to fall in love with him. According to Cloti logic, Tifa only knew the real Cloud for about a week before she fell in love with him. So, simply put: if Aerith couldn't fall in love with the real Cloud during Disk One of FFVII, then Tifa didn't fall in love with the real Cloud before the Highwind scene, either. |
![]() |
|
| aerisbolt | Dec 29 2008, 09:05 PM Post #2 |
![]()
Beautiful Paradox
|
Yeah it does seem interesting to me that many Clotis like to tout their couple as having this great history and how romantic it is that they knew each other as kids and/or were friends and then they fall in love and have a family with Denzel... Okay...talked a lot about this in the evidence against Tifa thread but I think you have shown very well Anastar that say what you will about either girl with Cloud, knowing him for a long time is NOT a factor. Is it possible for Tifa to have fallen in love with the real Cloud after the Lifestream event? Absolutely as long as two things are acknowledged, Aerith was falling in love with the same glimpses of real Cloud Tifa was and that the love Tifa felt through the FFVII game was at MOST a mixture of her dream Cloud and the real one. Now by the end of CoT she probably is in love with the real Cloud but she still shows signs of wanting to make both herself and him into things they aren't. And since Aerith is a Cetra I believe that she is in love with the real Cloud too by this point and both women could be interpreted as still being in love with Cloud through the events of AC. There is also that fun storytelling card of love at first sight which whether you believe it or not yourself has been used for certain great "love stories" and if a Cloti wants to use that as an argument I have no problem with that, again as long as it is understood that it could go for Aerith too. And another question I have is, since Cloud was so confused and messed up for most of the game, when did he fall in love with the real Tifa? Since he didn't know her as a child and just made her into this unattainable goddess, when did he have that moment where he was like oh this is who I really am and this is who Tifa really is and I love her, no more hidden secrets, no more fictional Cloud and Tifa...here we are our true selves and we are going to live or die together? Because even in the high affection scene, I never saw that conversation, and in the lifestream all that was confirmed was that they didn't know each other and that Cloud was grateful to Tifa for helping him put back his memories correctly. Nice moment? Sure but there was so much other stuff going on there was no time to sit down and get to know each other...unless you want to see the highwind as a sex scene and then well...they physically got to know each other. But with getting himself together in the lifestream he would have the same problem Tifa had just not as severe, he had been interacting with who Tifa had become but only then could he reflect on that. And since she knew so much and didn't tell him for so long (since again may Cloti fans say they love how realistic they are as a couple...) I would imagine a new line of trust would have to be formed before they could really be together and with everything going on there was no time for that. And that is without factoring in Aerith in any way whether be in a Cloti distracting, possible slight crush way, or in a falling in love way that Clerith fans view it as. Either way they had a lot to go through and a lot of healing to do before they could no if they were going to be true love for ever. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION. |
![]() |
|
| Angelalex242 | Dec 29 2008, 10:43 PM Post #3 |
![]()
Keeper of the Intimacy of Aerith's soul living in Cloud
|
Tifa hitting on Cloud makes sense. Even Tifa could see CLOUD sure as hell wasn't going to make any moves. And if she wanted a date (or nookie) she wasn't going to get it waiting around for him. As for really knowing him? No, not really. But a CloTi could say you don't really have to know somebody well to hit on a guy, or even sleep with him. Girls get picked up in bars all the time, after all. Which makes it all the more painful when she gets shot down... |
![]() |
|
| Alan Bates | Dec 29 2008, 11:44 PM Post #4 |
|
That one guy
|
The biggest obstacle I've always seen in the relationship between Cloud and Tifa (ignoring Aeris) is that they each already have an idea of who the other person is and it's not anywhere close to the truth. Cloud didn't know Tifa as a child, but he seemed to have a crush on her (at least). So, not having any real interactions with Tifa, he would have had to create an image of who she was in his mind. Now, even if this was close to the truth, it's fairly obvious that Tifa as a child and Tifa as an adult are two vastly different people. Cloud doesn't seem to see this. He refers to Tifa being strong and cheerful, yet she's very emotionally fragile and hides her feelings. So, Cloud has in his mind an image of Tifa that's about a decade out of date if it was ever true at all. So he's got no reason to "get to know" Tifa, since in his mind he already knows her and she's too vulnerable to try to correct him. Remember, she wouldn't even correct a story she knew to be false when they were on the run from Shinra and their lives could have depended on information like that. Now Tifa, Tifa's much in the same boat. Except she didn't seem to pay any attention to Cloud as a child. Her idea of the kind of person Cloud was started almost completley after he left and she couldn't even watch him from afar to guess what he was thinking. Her Cloud was the SOLDIER that she kept looking for in newspapers and TV reports. So when he does show back up as a SOLDIER she goes along with it, even when she knows what he's saying is false. Cloud really wants to be accepted, so when somebody start thinking highly of him he's not likely to correct them (at least pre-Advent, post is slightly different). Even though Tifa later learns that Cloud wasn't a hero SOLDIER, even in Advent Children she continues to nag him whenever he starts to slip away from the ideal way she thinks he should be behaving. So basically we have two people that because they think they know each other are going to try to get to know each other and because of their personality flaws aren't likely to correct each others misconceptions. |
![]() |
|
| Fimbulvetr | Dec 30 2008, 03:52 AM Post #5 |
|
Unregistered
|
Well, seeing as how this has to do with Tifa's character and not her relationships with anyone else, I have to say that Tifa is not emotionally weak. I mean, you could say that, but it wouldn't hold a lot of weight seeing as how the creators have stressed that she is both physically and emotionally strong. That would be all over the Reunion Files, in case you doubt me.
As for her not knowing Cloud in present day, which is the only misunderstanding in this topic that could concern me, she's his best living friend and quote "understands him all too well" and "devotedly supports the mentally weak side of him". Don't be offended by my defending a character I like, it's a hard thing to resist. I'm sure you get that where Aerith is concerned. |
|
|
| Alantie | Dec 30 2008, 05:23 AM Post #6 |
|
Dreams the world far away
|
Something to keep in mind is simply that not everyone is going to like Tifa, just like not everyone is going to like Aerith. There are many people who like and dislike Tifa here. I'm on the fence myself. There are times I like her and others that she just ticks me off with her behavior. Is Tifa emotionally weak? A weighted question. Personally, I think she can be. She keeps quite a bit bottled up inside, doesn't speak her mind on what she's really feeling or try to communicate when things get tough. She depends on people to constantly reassure her throught the game to tell her that things are going to be ok, or that everything is going to work out. Is this bad? Not always. But it is a weakness of Tifa's in that she struggles with emotions. I think her name itself is a huge hint to this: Lockhart. It really describes her and what kind of person she is. Anyway, it's understandable that you're going to want to defend Tifa, but not everyone is going to agree with you or like her.
I wouldn't say she's his BEST living friend. I don't think she's ever been referred to as his best friend, ever. They are friends, sure. But best friends implies a level of sharing and complete honesty with each other above and beyond normal friendship that I do not see them sharing at all. A best friend would have told their best friend about visiting Aerith's grave, or living in her Church. Cloud does not confide in Tifa, nor does she really confide in him either. I recall a quote from the RF that says that Tifa does not understand the complexities of Cloud's heart which implies to me that she doesn't understand him, his wishes, dreams, or desires. Where is this "understands him all too well" quote from? And the "devotedly supports the mentally weak side?" Tifa did not get to know Cloud until the original FFVII- right around the same time that Aerith and he first met. And even after in CoT, AC, and DoC, she still seems to hold to her old childhood illusions of him as some white knight hero who saves the day and is there by her side continually. It's the cause of a lot of the tension between them, because she has this idea of Cloud that she has on a pedastel, and when he can't or won't live up to it, she understandably becomes upset and frustrated. With that being said, I just want to say nicely that this forum isn't a place to debate the LT- if there are issues with the LT you want to discuss with us, I suggest taking it to the Northern Crater. |
![]() |
|
| Fimbulvetr | Dec 30 2008, 05:40 AM Post #7 |
|
Unregistered
|
Well, yes. Everyone has their moments of weakness. No one is invariably strong. But is that a defining characteristic of hers, and one that deserves more attention than others? According to the people who created her, no. Cloud is constantly dragging his past in AC, and has been quoted by Nomura as being weak. And yet, nobody harps on his weakness, which actually is one of his most prevalent qualities.
Personally, my interest is less in trying to convince everyone to fall in love with her than it is for them to see what the people who pieced her personality together think of this personality.
Isn't she? If she's not his best friend, then shouldn't Cloud have said to someone else that he thinks his life will succeed with their support? Wouldn't he have not said that if she wasn't his best friend, and instead said that if he had back-up from Barret, Cid, Vincent..etc... If Tifa isn't Cloud's best living friend, who is?
10th Anniv. Ultimania, Tifa's profile.
I believe they were talking about Tifa not knowing what Cloud's problems are in AC, since he has distanced himself from all his friends.
When did I talk about any love triangle? I'm talking first about Tifa's character and personality, and the claim that she doesn't presently understand Cloud. Am I not allowed to discuss that? |
|
|
| Kuraudo | Dec 30 2008, 06:13 AM Post #8 |
|
Advanced Member
|
In my opinion, Cloud and Tifa, even as adults, don't seem to understand eachother, for many of the same reasons that Alan Bates mentioned. All throughout CoT and AC, Cloud and Tifa have shown that they have problems opening up to and confiding in one another, and Tifa becomes frustrated in Cloud seemingly because she expects him to act differently than how he really is. Tifa still seems to be stuck seeing Cloud as she wants him to be. And not understanding the "complexities of his heart" seems awfully close to saying that she does not understand what is inside his heart. Why is this? Yes, because he has distanced himself from his friends and refuses to let them become involved with what he's struggling with inside. Why would Cloud distance himself from Tifa (who you even call his "best friend") if he felt he could open up to her? It seems to show that Cloud and Tifa aren't on the same wavelength if Cloud feels he can't confide in her.
What you're doing here is challenging Clerith ideas, which is against the rules. You're trying to debate about the fact that Tifa doesn't presently understand Cloud, that she is or isn't emotionally weak... This forum is for members who share common views and ideas, and we don't wish to debate these things here, like you're presently doing. If you disagree, then you need to keep it to the Northern Crater. |
![]() |
|
| Fimbulvetr | Dec 30 2008, 06:43 AM Post #9 |
|
Unregistered
|
I don't see how I'm doing what you're accusing me of, Kuraudo. You make it seem like Tifa simply exists as a roadblock to C/A, and that her personality traits are simply rebuttals to C/A, when they are simply what makes Tifa herself.
When did I question Cloud and Aerith here? I don't believe I even said anything about Aerith, other than that I know you'd defend her, like I defend Tifa. This thread is about Tifa, is it not? Then, how am I not allowed to talk about whether she understands Cloud, when that's what this thread is about? Is this just a polite bashing thread? If this forum is against discussing or defending Tifa(note that I say Tifa, not Cloti), then shouldn't an amendment to the rules clarifying this be made? |
|
|
| aerisbolt | Dec 30 2008, 02:58 PM Post #10 |
![]()
Beautiful Paradox
|
Okay everyone let's see if we can keep this on track. Fimbulvetr, let me make sure I understand, you are not liking the assement of Tifa's personality by some posters correct? Please tell me again what your thoughts on Tifa's personality are. I for one find her to be a beautiful mixture of strength and weakness. Her not knowing what to tell Cloud about his past and thus keeping quite is a perfect example of why I am fascinated with her character. She wants to help Cloud, knows something's up and then makes a decision which is dangerous but again very human in deciding to not tell him his memories are incorrect. She is worried about him, her heart is in the right place I believe but she still makes a mistake in my opinion. I also feel that at the end of FFVII is one of her best moments, she hears the man she is falling in love with say that he wants to meet Aerith. Does she sob? No, she bows her head in acceptance and wants to help him reach his goal. It is beautiful, strong moment for Tifa that never really gets discussed in the right way in my opinion. So again just because she is very flawed does not mean I am knocking her, in honesty I like characters that I can relate to just as much as I can like characters who accomplish things I could not like Aerith does. But in any case this thread subject is about whether Tifa knows the real Cloud and if so when did that take place. And as far as Cloud is concerned...I thought why people liked him as a hero so much was because he showed weakness time and again but finds a way to 1st save the world and then in AC allow himself to finally heal? I mean I can't speak for anyone but myself but that was the impression I have gotten through many discussions about Cloud on the forum, and I know that is why I like him so much. So I am not sure where you are getting that people look at Cloud as amazing but don't see his flaws? On a quick side note, I love your avatar!
|
![]() |
|
| Anastar | Dec 30 2008, 03:29 PM Post #11 |
|
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
|
Actually, this topic has nothing to do with Tifa's character and everything to do with her relationship with Cloud before the Highwind scene. The point I made in my first post is that, if Cloud was not "the real Cloud" during Disk One of FFVII, Tifa could not get to know him during that time. If Cloud was not "the real Cloud" until after the Lifestream Event, then Tifa could not get to know "the real Cloud" until after the Lifestream event, either. That has nothing to do with Tifa's character. I went on to say that she did not know him well as a child. That is blatantly stated during the Lifestream event and has nothing to do with Tifa's character. Therefore, if Tifa did not know Cloud as a child, and the real Cloud didn't exist until after the Lifestream event, then Tifa only had 18 scenes during the game to get to know "the real Cloud" before she (according to the Cloti interpretation of the game) tells Cloud that she loves him during the Highwind scene. If this is true, then Cloti's are contradicting themselves. If Cloti's claim that Aerith can't love "the real Cloud" because she never got to know "the real Cloud", then they shouldn't be claiming that Tifa *does* love the real Cloud by the Highwind event. Why? Because - by the Highwind scene - Tifa's only known "the real Cloud" for 18 scenes. Those 18 scenes last for just a few days. Of course, this theory would only be true if the Cloti idea that the real Cloud didn't exist in FFVII until after the Lifestream event is accurate.
I never said Tifa doesn't know Cloud in present day. My first post has nothing to do with how well Tifa knows Cloud now. It has everything to do with how well Tifa knew "the real Cloud" before the Highwind event.
Kuraudo was trying to point out that if you want to debate Clerith ideas, then please keep it in the Northern Crater. This is not a debate forum. |
![]() |
|
| MistaCloudStrife | Dec 30 2008, 03:54 PM Post #12 |
|
"I'll cut them off" O.O
|
Skimmed through. One of the reasons for my not liking Tifa very much is because, unlike Aeris, she knew more about Cloud, but didn't do anything about it. During the flashback at Kalm Tifa realized that there was something wrong with Cloud, but decided against saying anything. I don't know whether or not she was scared or what, but by neglecting Cloud and not sharing what she knew, Cloud didn't get the help he needed until way later. Now from what I can see right now, Tifa was important to the game because of her MEMORIES. She helped piece Cloud back together, but by withholding this single tiny little piece of information to help Cloud find his real self, it escalated to Cloud being controlled by Sephiroth/Jenova, Cloud giving Sephiroth the Black Materia and even Aeris leaving to help out the others and dying in the process. Unlike Tifa, Aeris knew close to nothing, and yet was willing to do anything to help him out. If their roles were switched, or even if she just knew that little bit of information about Cloud, I'm sure that Aeris would have helped out Cloud sooner and not let him drag on like that. Ehh... I think I'm forgetting something. D: Oh well. xD |
![]() |
|
| Anastar | Dec 30 2008, 05:43 PM Post #13 |
|
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
|
I completely agree with you, MCS. It really bothered me that Tifa didn't tell Cloud about the problems with his memory of Nibelheim until so late in the game. A lot of problems could have been avoided if she'd only spoken up earlier. Cloud even asked her directly about whether or not she knew Zack, but she denied knowing him. However, I must say again that this topic has nothing to do with Tifa's personality or character. It also has nothing to do with how well Tifa knows Cloud now. The only point I'm trying to make is that (according to Cloti theory about "the real Cloud") Tifa only knew "the real Cloud" for 18 scenes before the Highwind scene. Those 18 scenes only take up a few days. Therefore, Tifa had only known "the real Cloud" for a few days before the Highwind scene. Yet, Cloti's accept that Tifa loved Cloud at that time. So isn't it a total contradiction for Cloti's to be claiming that Aerith can't love "the real Cloud" because she didn't know him? According to their own theory, Tifa didn't know "the real Cloud", either. |
![]() |
|
| Fimbulvetr | Dec 30 2008, 06:46 PM Post #14 |
|
Unregistered
|
When did she get to know the real Cloud? This definitely just seems like an excuse to rag on Tifa. I don't see how it's relevant when she knows him now(because it seems like you all are saying she only wants Cloud to act as a hero type, because that's the "Cloud" she knows), and Aerith and her's situations were very different. Also, I know I'm being singled out here, because comments on Tifa's character and her present knowledge of Cloud have been allowed, so long as they were negative ones. Even the mods, while scolding me for discussing it, couldn't resist ragging on Tifa. So, if I can't discuss anything that remotely veers from topic(like eveyone does on practically every thread. Besides, I didn't know these things WERE off-topic), then shouldn't that extend to the others, especially the ones who point the finger? It's kind of silly how I'm accused of talking about the LT, when I never mentioned Clerith or Cloti, either.
Ok, so even though you guys stress the fact that Cloud actually fixed himself with minimal assistance from her, it's Tifa's fault? What was she supposed to say? In her mind, Cloud WAS NOT in Nibelheim, and if she'd told him sooner, she most likely would have been adamant on that point. That could have thrown Cloud over. He probably would have given up, believing that he really was a clone. Tifa didn't have some magic "Fix Cloud" elixir. Why not try to explain in detail what she should have done, what she should have said, and then prove that whatever outcome, obviously here being "lots of problems avoided" would have been positive. Think back to Gaea's Cliff. Did Tifa saying "you weren't there" help Cloud? Isn't that when he gives up, begs Hojo for an identity, and gives the Black materia that summoned Meteor to Sephiroth? Aerith does similar stuff where Cloud's obviously mental problems are concerned. In the Temple of the Ancients, when Cloud starts freaking out and laughing like a lunatic, when Cloud asks her what's wrong, she says "Nothing. Nothing's wrong!", turns to whoever you brought with you and says "Right?(they both nod)It's nothing!" And then tells him Sephiroth got away. I think she would have done the same thing as Tifa, if this scene is an indication. |
|
|
| aerisbolt | Dec 30 2008, 07:46 PM Post #15 |
![]()
Beautiful Paradox
|
Um...so my post just gets completely ignored because I am pretty sure I wrote a whole long post of positive and negative aspects about Tifa. And again her decision about keeping things from Cloud was a mistake, she is human and she made a very bad call and thus why she probably held guilt for a long time after. She also bailed on the team to focus on Cloud when there was at the time not a lot she could do for him which I thought was the wrong move but I LIKE her character but can admit when she makes bad moves. I don't think Aerith is perfect either but they are just different people having different scenarios. We would be exhausted if we pulled out what ifs. You saying you think Aerith would have reacted the same as Tifa is not a good road to go down, they are different characters and may or may not choose to do things the same or differently. Again I fail to understand how pointing out that Tifa didn't know Cloud as a child and had made up a glorified version of a hero with Cloud's face is taking extra time to knock Tifa. She was young, she had a dream, it didn't come true. I have said in other threads that Cloud was also guilty of envisioning Tifa incorrectly and I don't think that is bashing a character. I tried to be cordial to you and have you be able to go into more discussion about what the thread is about but apparently you feel the need to just make everything an argument, not a discussion. :angry: |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Final Fantasy VII · Next Topic » |









12:30 AM Jul 11