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Cloud's Light
Topic Started: Aug 27 2008, 05:34 AM (2,130 Views)
Drake Clawfang
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Rydia Fanboy
I was watching some Kingdom Heart's footage, and just wanted to bring to light (pardon the pun) a few things I noticed regarding Cloud's light.

First off, Aerith and Tifa seem to have two totally different views on Cloud's darkness.

Aerith: I wonder if he'll be okay.
Sora: He'll be fine. I'm sure there's some light in him somewhere.
Aerith: You're right...

Tifa: I wanna help you!
Sephiroth: You can't. He'll never let go of the darkness.
Tifa: He doesn't have to. He just needs someone to surround him with light. The darkness will be there Sephiroth, but in a place you can't reach.

So while Sora notes that Cloud has light inside him, and Aerith agrees, Sephiroth claims that Cloud will never let go of darkness, and Tifa seems to agree...hm. In the first place, "surrounding him with light" is shallow of Tifa to think. When someone has a problem, most of the time surrounding them with happy things and avoiding that problem, ultimately doesn't help much. At least that doesn't work with Cloud: case of point, Advent Children. How did surrounding Cloud with "light" work out for him then?

Second, I noticed that Cloud actually glows with two different kinds of light. First, he gets the blue-white aura that quickly fades, then a golden aura that he continues to glow with until he vanishes.

What if those two different lights were different powers? I'm thinking, maybe the blue-white light is Tifa's light. Here's exactly how it goes in the scene.

Tifa: Cloud, you can have my light.
Sephiroth: The light doesn't suit you.
Cloud: I just...don't know (he glows blue-white, and it fades quickly)
Sephiroth: Stop! (dashes towards Cloud, Cloud glows with golden light, he and Sephiroth leap up and vanish)

I'm thinking, that Tifa offers Cloud her light, but Cloud hesitates, and Tifa's light that she tries to give him is rejected - that's the blue-white aura. Then Cloud glows anew with the golden light, which is his own inner light. Notice the blue-white aura seems to surround Cloud, while the golden aura starts to glow from within him and spreads outward.

Just a few observations I made.

Also note, the golden light thing sort of ties into Hercules, but maybe that's reading too much into it...but I watched the scene and wondered "why does Cloud glow twice, and why do the two lights look different?"
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Vixie
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Sicker than the rest
On the issue of Tifa's light being "rejected" I think it is because it is too harsh for Cloud. Nomura said "If Sephiroth is darkness then Tifa is light" So if Tifa represents pure light, maybe it's too much for Cloud, as darkness is also a huge part of him? I think this idea of Tifa being Cloud's light was pulled out of someone's ass tbh. He was looking for his light in KH, which Tifa was not in, and KH ended with Cloud finding Aerith. Aerith is also described as understanding both Light and Darkness, she is ideal "Light" material IMO :aeris: Now Tifa is supposed to be Cloud's light, yet he is running away from what he is searching for in KH2?! It makes no sense.

I also find this assumption that Cloud took Tifa's light insulting, Cloud has his own light, as I think he proved.

Quote:
 
In the first place, "surrounding him with light" is shallow of Tifa to think. When someone has a problem, most of the time surrounding them with happy things and avoiding that problem, ultimately doesn't help much. At least that doesn't work with Cloud: case of point, Advent Children. How did surrounding Cloud with "light" work out for him then?


Well said. Trying to cover up a problem doesn't work, Cloud needs understanding and support, not someone trying to force happy vibes on him!
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PinkWhiteLove
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I couldn't agree with you more, Drake!

Cloud's inability to let go of the darkness is well-thought out, but I'd have to agree to Sephiroth and Tifa. It's just who Cloud is on the inside, and there can't be light with darkness. It's how the universe operates (and made-up ones, too apparently) for whatever reason. But if Sephiroth exists as Cloud's form of darkness, then Cloud also has a form of light. That light is not Tifa. I guess the blue-white aura theory is plausible, since either way Cloud is glowing with his own light in the end. Whether or not he intentionally rejected her light, I think that her light does not suit him, but the golden one does.

Drake Clawfang
 
Also note, the golden light thing sort of ties into Hercules, but maybe that's reading too much into it...but I watched the scene and wondered "why does Cloud glow twice, and why do the two lights look different?"

Coincidence? I don't think so...
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Drake Clawfang
 
Second, I noticed that Cloud actually glows with two different kinds of light. First, he gets the blue-white aura that quickly fades, then a golden aura that he continues to glow with until he vanishes.

I'm thinking, that Tifa offers Cloud her light, but Cloud hesitates, and Tifa's light that she tries to give him is rejected - that's the blue-white aura. Then Cloud glows anew with the golden light, which is his own inner light. Notice the blue-white aura seems to surround Cloud, while the golden aura starts to glow from within him and spreads outward.

Interesting theory, but... remember that Tifa's light blinds Cloud twice before Cloud himself starts to glow with light:

Posted Image

If Tifa's light blinds him earlier, then why wouldn't it blind him again? :unsure:

I've noticed the change in color, too, but in the above picture, Tifa's light seems to diffusely permeate the air. The bluish-white light glowing from Cloud is more contained and centered around his body:

Posted Image

Cloud also doesn't have to shield his eyes when the bluish white light starts to glow around him. In addition, there's nothing to indicate that the bluish white light around Cloud comes from Tifa, in that she makes no hand gesture or physical contact with Cloud.

I agree that there is a distinct change the color of light around Cloud, though, and that Tifa's own light seems to have more of a bluish-white tinge.

Drake Clawfang
 
So while Sora notes that Cloud has light inside him, and Aerith agrees, Sephiroth claims that Cloud will never let go of darkness, and Tifa seems to agree...hm.

Excellent observation. So Aerith actually sees the light within Cloud despite his personal darkness, while Tifa only sees Cloud's struggle with darkness.

Drake Clawfang
 
In the first place, "surrounding him with light" is shallow of Tifa to think. When someone has a problem, most of the time surrounding them with happy things and avoiding that problem, ultimately doesn't help much. At least that doesn't work with Cloud: case of point, Advent Children. How did surrounding Cloud with "light" work out for him then?

Agreed. That's why I see many parallels between AC and KHII. Nojima even said that Cloud was running away from the "something warm" that Tifa was after in AC. I think he's referring to the "light" that Tifa's trying to cast around him. In a sense, that's nothing but a false light. As you say, a false light - or false happiness - is avoiding the problem and ultimately won't help much.

That's one of the reasons I think that Cloud isn't truly happy at the beginning of CoT. If KHII and AC serve as parallels, then Cloud is running away from the false light - or false happiness - that Tifa is trying to create at the Seventh Heaven.
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Drake Clawfang
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Rydia Fanboy
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Aug 28 2008, 07:04 AM
Interesting theory, but... remember that Tifa's light blinds Cloud twice before Cloud himself starts to glow with light:

Posted Image

If Tifa's light blinds him earlier, then why wouldn't it blind him again? :unsure:

I've noticed the change in color, too, but in the above picture, Tifa's light seems to diffusely permeate the air. The bluish-white light glowing from Cloud is more contained and centered around his body:

Posted Image

Cloud also doesn't have to shield his eyes when the bluish white light starts to glow around him. In addition, there's nothing to indicate that the bluish white light around Cloud comes from Tifa, in that she makes no hand gesture or physical contact with Cloud.

I agree that there is a distinct change the color of light around Cloud, though, and that Tifa's own light seems to have more of a bluish-white tinge.

In that case, what's the signifigance than, of the two different types of light?
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Drake Clawfang
 
In that case, what's the signifigance than, of the two different types of light?

Very honestly, I'm not sure. I just question it to be Tifa's light when:

1. Cloud isn't blinded by it, like he was before.
2. The appearance is different: Tifa's light is filmy, weak, and diffuse. The light around Cloud is bright, strong, and contained.
3. There's no indication that Tifa casts it on him.
4. IF KHII is a parallel to AC, where does Tifa's light cause Cloud's light to shine in AC?

Your theory is interesting, in that the light could *feasibly* change from Tifa's light to Cloud's light because Tifa's light isn't suitable for Cloud. Yet, wouldn't that essentially mean that Tifa's light brings out the light in Cloud? Or that Cloud can only find his inner light when Tifa forces her own light on him? :unsure:

Yet, what else the color change could mean... I'm not sure. Out of curiosity, were the lights of any other people shown in KHII? As I remember in KH, the lights of the princesses of light were shown to be pure white.

I'm asking because I wonder if there could be a "source" of light for everybody? :unsure:
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Alan Bates
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Quote:
 
Agreed. That's why I see many parallels between AC and KHII. Nojima even said that Cloud was running away from the "something warm" that Tifa was after in AC. I think he's referring to the "light" that Tifa's trying to cast around him. In a sense, that's nothing but a false light. As you say, a false light - or false happiness - is avoiding the problem and ultimately won't help much.

That's one of the reasons I think that Cloud isn't truly happy at the beginning of CoT. If KHII and AC serve as parallels, then Cloud is running away from the false light - or false happiness - that Tifa is trying to create at the Seventh Heaven.

I wouldn't say it's a false light or a false happiness. Tifa offers him a perfectly good happy life, but he rejects it as not the life (or the kind of happiness) that he's looking for. In a way rejecting the place that others have for him helps him to find his own way or his own light.
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Drake Clawfang
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Rydia Fanboy
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Aug 28 2008, 01:47 PM
Your theory is interesting, in that the light could *feasibly* change from Tifa's light to Cloud's light because Tifa's light isn't suitable for Cloud. Yet, wouldn't that essentially mean that Tifa's light brings out the light in Cloud? Or that Cloud can only find his inner light when Tifa forces her own light on him? :unsure

Well that wouldn't work, saying Tifa brought out Cloud's light. Aerith tells Cloud to find his light, and he agrees. So if Tifa can bring out that light, why does Cloud flee from her? The only reasonable explanation for that is that Cloud doesn't want her to bring out his light, which is just totally non-sensical.
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Alan Bates
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Slight change of subject, but does anybody else here wonder what exactly Sephiroth did in Kingdom Hearts to make Cloud hate him so much?

I doubt there was a Niebelham incident if they're all from Radiant Garden and Aeris is still alive so it can't be either of those thing (unless she came back to life somehow. Hey, it's Disney. That's possible here.)
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Drake Clawfang
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Rydia Fanboy
In my perception, Cloud did something horrible, or went through something horrible, that caused him to fall into darkness, in turn causing Sephiroth to be born. Everything in the games indicates Sephiroth is some dark form of Cloud, or at least is sustained by his darkness, and Sephiroth taunts Cloud with his past.

If Cloud had fallen into darkness and inadvertantly spawned Sephiroth, this would be perfect sense - his affinity to darkness, his need for light, his guilt, his determination to defeat Sephiroth, and Sephiroth's comments about Cloud's darkness and past.
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Alan Bates
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So, Sephiroth is his Nobody? Intresting idea. I kinda got that feeling myself at certain points.
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Drake Clawfang
 
Well that wouldn't work, saying Tifa brought out Cloud's light. Aerith tells Cloud to find his light, and he agrees. So if Tifa can bring out that light, why does Cloud flee from her? The only reasonable explanation for that is that Cloud doesn't want her to bring out his light, which is just totally non-sensical.

Exactly - that's why I doubt that it's Tifa's light.

In looking at the pictures again, however - do you notice that blue tinge when the light first forms around Cloud?

Posted Image

It doesn't show very well in that screenshot, but you can see it more clearly at KHII: Cloud vs. Sephiroth at YouTube. Does Tifa's light also have that bluish tinge? :unsure: Tifa's light looks more like it's filmy white to me.

As I said earlier, it seems to me that the lights surrounding the princesses of light in KHI were always shown to be pure white. That makes me wonder if personal lights are always white, so that Cloud was just "tapping into it" at that moment? :unsure:

Alan Bates
 
I wouldn't say it's a false light or a false happiness. Tifa offers him a perfectly good happy life, but he rejects it as not the life (or the kind of happiness) that he's looking for. In a way rejecting the place that others have for him helps him to find his own way or his own light.

By "false" light, I mean that Tifa's basically just trying to "cover up" the problem rather than solve it. Yes, Cloud rejects it because it's not the happiness that he's searching for, but that makes the happiness that she offers "false" for Cloud - right?

Also, if Cloud were truly happy at the beginning of CoT, then why does he say that he no longer feels alone at the end of AC? If he were feeling alone during the last two years, how does that make him happy during the last two years?

I wonder whether he was actually just "putting on a front" at the beginning of CoT for the benefit of others, specifically Tifa. Tifa had helped him regain his memories during the Lifestream Event, which helped him overcome Sephiroth's mental ploys. He and Tifa pledged their friendship to one another during the HW scene, too - so he may have felt a "brotherly" need to see that she was back on her feet before taking off on his own. IMO, Cloud and Tifa formed a brotherly-sisterly type bond during FFVII, rather than a romantic one.

If that was his motivation, then his "happiness" at the beginning of CoT may have been nothing but a front that he put on for the benefit of Tifa. Wouldn't a brother would do something like that for a sister?
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PinkWhiteLove
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Tifa's light is pure white and yes, he does shield his eyes away from it. So, Tifa must be pure on the light side, which makes sense why Cloud would want to run away from that kind of pressure. Whereas Cloud sees to have a light that is blue and white, which probably is indicating to something if it does have some sort of importance. Much like Aerith, Cloud is pure of either side either, but there's no understanding between the two sides for him. He's just somewhere in between.

But color symbolism might kick in their too.

Blue- peace, calm, sky, stability, depression, loyalty, water, cold, technology, and security.

White- Purity, reverence, simplicity, humility, winter, cold, good, snow, clouds, clinical, and sterile.

Could the blue/white light just be Cloud's soul? Or not?
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Anastar
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PinkWhiteLove
 
Tifa's light is pure white and yes, he does shield his eyes away from it. So, Tifa must be pure on the light side, which makes sense why Cloud would want to run away from that kind of pressure.

That makes a lot of sense, but remember what Nojima said in the KHII Ultimania:

Nojima: Tifa wasn't planned to appear at first. I was talking with Tetsu about what Cloud could be doing in Hallow Bastion, and we eventually moved towards him chasing after Sephiroth, but also being chased by something himself. So Cloud's really running from something but goes around pretending, saying that he's chasing Sephiroth. Then we decided to make it him running from the "something warm" like what Tifa was after in AC.

So he's running from the "something warm" that Tifa wants, rather than from Tifa's light itself. However, that's apparantly interrelated, in that if Cloud accepts her light, then he's essentially allowing her to have the "something warm". See what I mean? :unsure:

PinkWhiteLove
 
Whereas Cloud sees to have a light that is blue and white, which probably is indicating to something if it does have some sort of importance. Much like Aerith, Cloud is pure of either side either, but there's no understanding between the two sides for him. He's just somewhere in between.

Again, that makes sense. However, you have to remember that Cloud's light changes to a warm golden color. Drake's theory was about why Cloud's light changes color.

PinkWhiteLove
 
Could the blue/white light just be Cloud's soul? Or not?

I'm not sure what relevance this may have - but Cloud's limit breaks tend to show either a bluish-white or a golden color, as seen in these screenshots:

Cloud's AC Limit Break
Omnislash
FFVII Limit

Could one's personal light be tied to the color of their limit breaks? :dunno: What colors are seen in Tifa's limits?

PinkWhiteLove
 
But color symbolism might kick in their too.

Blue- peace, calm, sky, stability, depression, loyalty, water, cold, technology, and security.

White- Purity, reverence, simplicity, humility, winter, cold, good, snow, clouds, clinical, and sterile.

Good observation, but what symbolism does the golden color have? Come to think of it, the flowers in the flower field are golden. So is the flower on Cloud's desk at the end of AC. I've always felt that golden flower is there to represent Aerith, and her continuing presence in Cloud's life.

Maybe blue is the color of Cloud's anger toward Sephiroth, as shown in this picture of Omnislash, while the golden color may symbolize Aerith? Could that be tied to the idea that Cloud's strength comes from Aerith?

Or is that idea ruined by the golden color seen in Cloud's FFVII limit break?
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Drake Clawfang
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Rydia Fanboy
After playing through KH2 some more, yeah, Cloud is certainly not comfortable with Tifa's light. Sephiroth tells Cloud "you live in the past, because the light of the present is too much". Then Tifa calls to him, Cloud turns to her and is blinded. Sephiroth teleports away, and Cloud runs away as Tifa chases him.

EDIT - Also, this may not be associated with Cloud's light, but at the end of the Hollow Bastion invasion, he tells Leon "they Keyblade's chosen one...he's a lucky kid". I'm just wondering, what do you think he means by that?
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