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Shall We Have A Silence?
Topic Started: Dec 7 2006, 10:44 PM (552 Views)
goddess_in_pink07
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Ambrosia
December 7th, 1941 wasn't an ordinary day.

The Attack on Pearl Harbor was a surprise aerial attack largely on Pearl Harbor, Oʻahu, Hawaiʻi, and the USA launched by the 1st Air Fleet of the Imperial Japanese Navy of the task force Carrier Striking Task Force [1] on the morning of Sunday, December 7, 1941 (Hawaiʻi time). It was aimed at the Pacific Fleet of the United States Navy and its defending Army Air Corps and Marine defensive squadrons as preemptive war intended to neutralize the American forces in the Pacific in an impending World War II. Pearl Harbor was actually only one of several military and naval installations which were attacked, including those on the other side of the island.

Of 8 American battleships in the harbor, the attack resulted in 1 destroyed, 2 sunk at their moorings, 1 capsized, 1 beached and 3 damaged but afloat. With the exception of the Arizona (destroyed), all the others were refloated or righted and 6 (Nevada, West Virginia, Tennessee, Maryland, California and Pennsylvania) were repaired and returned to service. While the Oklahoma, which had capsized, was righted, she was never repaired. Additionally, the attack severely damaged 9 other warships, destroyed 188 aircraft, and killed 2,403 Americans: 2,335 servicemen and 68 civilians. However, the Pacific Fleet's three aircraft carriers were not in port and were left undamaged, as were the base's vital oil tank farms, Navy Yard and machine shops, submarine base, and power station, as well as the Headquarters Building (home to the intelligence unit HYPO). These provided the basis for the Pacific Fleet's campaign during the rest of the war.

2,403 people died for their country. Which, is why we should respect the people who died that day. Their's always a high-risk of dieing in war, but that didn't stop so many men and woman from joining. They all wanted to help their country, and defend their country.
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Sadhana
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capitalism is dead
I know that I'm an American, and I knew that today was the anniversary of Pearl Harbor. I've heard Mr. Bush call September 11 the Pearl Harbor of the 21st Century although I think the comparison isn't quite fair.

I understand that Pearl Harbor was a tragedy. As my favorite president referred to it, "a date which will live in infamy." FDR was right if people are still mourning over it 65 years later.

I don't want to sound cold or unpatriotic, but I would much rather mourn the lives of those lost under the boots of Nazi fascism who could've been saved had we entered WWII sooner. No loss of innocent human life is more or less lamentable than another in my eyes. Just as I mourn the 655,000 Iraqi civilians killed by this war more than I mourn the 2,900 American troops who have died, the greater portion of my empathy in regards to Pearl Harbor goes out to the people America could've saved had she gotten involved in the European conflict sooner instead of waiting for the Japanese to retaliate against the oil embargo we put on them.

It was very shocking and tragic, I'm sure, for America in 1941 when the Empire of the Sun used their newly developed shallow water torpedoes on a nation that was "neutral" in WWII (if you consider cash-and-carry and the Lend Lease Act to be considered neutral acts in the war on America's part). Still, I can't help but feel that there are greater tragedies in the world worth mourning over.

Nowadays, when we learn about that war, we learn about the great fight against genocide and fascism. And yet, while people have their moment of silence for the horrid spectacle that drew us into that struggle against genocide, they shut their eyes to the genocide going on right now in Darfur. We're only 6 years into the 21st Century, and we already have our first genocide. A wise person said that history repeats itself, and the foolish public ignores him. People wonder how others could have sit on their butts and let the Holocaust happen. Well, this is how.

I'm sorry that I'm using this topic as my soapbox. By all means, mourn. I just wanted to share my opinion...
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Bremic
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Just as I mourn the 655,000 Iraqi civilians killed by this war more than I mourn the 2,900 American troops who have died, the greater portion of my empathy in regards to Pearl Harbor goes out to the people America could've saved had she gotten involved in the European conflict sooner instead of waiting for the Japanese to retaliate against the oil embargo we put on them.


Well seeing as how everyone hates us no matter what we do, like you, I suppose staying isolated seemed like a good idea at the time. But I also noticed you said we should have acted sooner. This is correct. But think about it. If we had declared war on terror before 9/11, you would have still been against it. Even though the governments of many terrorism sponsoring had opressed, terrorized, and murdered their own people, from what ive seen you still would have been against taking people like Sadaam out of power. There was genocide going on there, also.

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It was very shocking and tragic, I'm sure, for America in 1941 when the Empire of the Sun used their newly developed shallow water torpedoes on a nation that was "neutral" in WWII (if you consider cash-and-carry and the Lend Lease Act to be considered neutral acts in the war on America's part).


Well if they had not attacked us they wouldn't have had to deal with the anger of the American people knowing that they had been victims to a sneak attack. They brought it upon themselves, even Yamamoto said it was suicide to attack the U.S..

I have nothing but respect for our troops in WW2. Even more in the Pacific, where if the wrong Japanese captured you, they would spit on you, defecate on you, pretty much rip your guts out, then if that didnt kill you, shoot you.

In my opinion, Pearl Harbor, like 9/11, was an unnecessary attack. Its the same thing. We had attacked no one, only to be repaid with treachory on an unimaginable scale.

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Nowadays, when we learn about that war, we learn about the great fight against genocide and fascism. And yet, while people have their moment of silence for the horrid spectacle that drew us into that struggle against genocide, they shut their eyes to the genocide going on right now in Darfur. We're only 6 years into the 21st Century, and we already have our first genocide. A wise person said that history repeats itself, and the foolish public ignores him. People wonder how others could have sit on their butts and let the Holocaust happen. Well, this is how.


Well lets look at the scale of things. Hitler had conquered an entire continent in six months and was poised to conquer our closest ally, Great Britain. Although it is a shame it is seen this way, Darfur is not being deemed very important by the international community due to other events.

In conclusion, ill tell you my outlook. Im an American first. I worry about our citizens more, is that wrong? I think not. I do think that we should have invaded Iraq to take Sadaam out of power and to figure out the truth of the WMD theory, whether real or not. Intel isnt flawless. But what if he did have them?

Another reason I stand behind my own country is that I think your whole idea of a "united humanity" is an impossibility. In the other thread you said you dont need world peace to be united, which is not true. Im sorry, but unless the entire human race is forced to be "united" and "peaceful" like in V for Vendetta, it will never work.

"Cmon, the human race will never move on until we all pretend to like each other!" - Leela, Futurama.

By the way, I hear the military is working on some new vehicles to be deployed to Iraq, and the just released a video of them. I found it interesting. :D (lol)

Check it out!



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Sadhana
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capitalism is dead
This thread wasn't made to be a political thread, and it was unnecessary of me to make it into one. Like I said at the end, I'm sorry for that. Then again, I didn't bring Iraq into the conversation and only made a brief allusion to 9/11 in the first paragraph.

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If we had declared war on terror before 9/11, you would have still been against it.

I'm against the "war on terror" even after 9/11. I never supported such an idea. But here's what I was saying: we should have entered the war to stop the Nazi "purification" of Europe. We didn't enter until it became a personal thing for us. It had nothing to do with the elimination of millions of human beings. That, to me, is sad.

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Even though the governments of many terrorism sponsoring had opressed, terrorized, and murdered their own people, from what ive seen you still would have been against taking people like Sadaam out of power. There was genocide going on there, also.

What was going on in Iraq was never considered a genocide. Like I said, Darfur is the first genocide of the 21st century. In connection with what I said above, it's not about going to war, either in Iraq or WWII, as a preemptive measure. It's about why we went to war which makes Iraq irrelevant to what I was saying.

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In my opinion, Pearl Harbor, like 9/11, was an unnecessary attack. Its the same thing. We had attacked no one, only to be repaid with treachory on an unimaginable scale.

I agree that Pearl Harbor was not a good thing. I would never consider it so. But you're wrong in saying that it was an unnecessary attack and that we had done nothing. I could go into the details of how we were deeply economically involved in WWII even before Pearl Harbor, how we starved the Japanese economy, and acted in every way a neutral nation wouldn't. It was a necessary attack for the Japanese. And as for 9/11, I don't think that it was a completely uninspired act although I would never, ever support it. But... like I said, this thread isn't about those issues. And I don't care that much about correcting your history.

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Well lets look at the scale of things. Hitler had conquered an entire continent in six months and was poised to conquer our closest ally, Great Britain.
Then why do you continuously compare Iraq to Nazi Germany? Doesn't matter... I'm not talking about going to war with the Sudan or even us going to war with Germany. I'm talking about our active involvement in stopping genocides. We give ourselves such false pride in helping end the Holocaust, but all I was pointing out is how that is such self-diluting garbage. I wish it were the truth that we cared so much about genocide, hence why I mentioned Darfur, but that's not the reality.

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Im an American first. I worry about our citizens more, is that wrong? I think not.
Sorry, I think it is. I'm a human being first, not an American.

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I do think that we should have invaded Iraq to take Sadaam out of power and to figure out the truth of the WMD theory, whether real or not.
I still think this is irrelevant to what I was saying.

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Another reason I stand behind my own country is that I think your whole idea of a "united humanity" is an impossibility. In the other thread you said you dont need world peace to be united, which is not true. Im sorry, but unless the entire human race is forced to be "united" and "peaceful" like in V for Vendetta, it will never work.

You never stop misinterpreting my ideas on this, and you never will. I don't mean unity in any similar way to the manner you're using it, and we clearly have different definitions of peace. It's almost sad that sometimes people just lack the capabilities to envision large scale empathy.
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Bremic
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I'm against the "war on terror" even after 9/11. I never supported such an idea. But here's what I was saying: we should have entered the war to stop the Nazi "purification" of Europe. We didn't enter until it became a personal thing for us. It had nothing to do with the elimination of millions of human beings. That, to me, is sad.


And the Middle East doesn't want to "purify" their area by quote "wiping Israel off the face of the earth?" As someone said in the U.S. Elections thread, as you did, we didn't care about the Middle East until something happened to us. Well, if she said we didn't care, then there must have been something bad going on, right? And contrary to what you think, I believe there was genocide in Iraq, against the Kurds. I know you don’t think it was genocide, but saying that it is, you still would be against going there? And I don’t compare Nazi Germany to Iraq exclusively, but to radical Islam. Their mindset is be like us, or die. They have no interest in negotiations or cease-fires. Course, if you thought murdering Americans was your path into heaven, wouldn’t you do it? The Nazis and Japanese in similar fashion both thought that their people were inherently superior to everyone on the planet and their lifestyle should be the one of humanity. The Jihadists and the Axis are similar in so many ways.

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I could go into the details of how we were deeply economically involved in WWII even before Pearl Harbor, how we starved the Japanese economy, and acted in every way a neutral nation wouldn't. It was a necessary attack for the Japanese.


The reason we starved the Japanese economy was to halt their ruthless conquest of eastern Asia, so I think we were justified in that. As for being economically involved, yes we were, but I still think Japan could have found other means to act besides attacking.

If you think about it, Europe is guilty of being complacent as well. Too afraid of another war, they let Hitler romp around Europe doing as he pleased. This is pretty much what happened when Hitler attacked Poland...

Europe: Woah, hehe, hey there, Hitler, buddy! Uh, what're ya doin?

Hitler: Oh, c’mon guys! Id never attack you! Were friends! We signed all those treaties, remember?

Europe: Well... ok.

By the time they figured out he wasn’t going to stop, the entire continent was already screwed.

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And I don't care that much about correcting your history.


Theres nothing incorrect about "my" history. It’s simply my opinion of history.

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We give ourselves such false pride in helping end the Holocaust, but all I was pointing out is how that is such self-diluting garbage.


Uh... We kind of did. We saved Great Britain, France, and the Jewish people. Saying that we did nothing is garbage. One person I have great respect for is Elie Weisel, a concentration camp survivor, who is extremely grateful to America. Go ask any Jewish person. One of the saddest but touching scenes in Band of Brothers is when they free the people in a concentration camp. A walking skeleton shambles up to an American soldier and starts kissing him.

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I'm a human being first, not an American.


This kind of goes what I say below...

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You never stop misinterpreting my ideas on this, and you never will. I don't mean unity in any similar way to the manner you're using it, and we clearly have different definitions of peace. It's almost sad that sometimes people just lack the capabilities to envision large scale empathy.


Its kind of easy to misinterpret an idea like that, considering what "united humanity" has meant in past cases. It would be nice if everyone could be friendly and get along, wouldn't it? Well of course it would! I just don’t believe in humanity ever becoming selfless. Humans are destructive creatures, which will never change. All we can do is look after our own.
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Miss Yukari
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Fabulously Lazy
:rolleyes: I'm not even going to dignify your comments about silly complacent Europe and the almighty USA swooping in and saving the UK, France, and the Jewish during WWII with a response, Bremic. I get that you're patriotic and passionate about your beliefs, but please try to tone down the inflammatory comments.

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Sadhana
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capitalism is dead
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Uh... We kind of did. We saved Great Britain, France, and the Jewish people. Saying that we did nothing is garbage. One person I have great respect for is Elie Weisel, a concentration camp survivor, who is extremely grateful to America. Go ask any Jewish person. One of the saddest but touching scenes in Band of Brothers is when they free the people in a concentration camp. A walking skeleton shambles up to an American soldier and starts kissing him.

I know exactly who Elie Weisel is, I read his book. And I am inherently a Jewish person. Yes, we helped end the Holocaust, but you clearly missed what I was saying. I was saying that it is self-diluting garbage to say that we rightously swooped down into Europe to end genocide when that was not in our minds at all.

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And contrary to what you think, I believe there was genocide in Iraq, against the Kurds.

It was not a genocide, and for you to compare it to one is the first that I ever heard of such. The Kurds were not being treated equally under the law, but that is NOT genocide.

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Its kind of easy to misinterpret an idea like that, considering what "united humanity" has meant in past cases.

By a united humanity, I'm not talking about a political system. And I think it's rather easy to imagine selflessness, but it's probably difficult for Americans who are born and raised in capitalist-endorsed hedonisim, where freedom is defined by our ability to chase and spend a dollar, and then incidentally become desensitized to the principles of love for others.

Anyway, I think that's the most I can bear to dignify your response. You can go on and on about the complacancy of Europe, but they entered the war before we did. Yukari hit the nail on the head, and I don't understand why this thread became political when it was about mourning people, especially when I said it was wrong of me to use it as a soapbox to give my personal opinion on WWII. I'm content in being very knowledgable in American history, so however different your "interpretation" of it is from mine, I just don't care.
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TidusBlankety
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Listen to my story, this may be our last chance.
Im with Sadhana on this one. If america would've stepped in a little sooner things would probably be a lot different today...maybe not too different but different none the less.

But don't get me wrong, Im a happy american and Im all for the american people and what not...but...

I believe that maybe some people just shouldn't be here in general. I mean look at human life, look at what people say and do every single day. People kill, people fight, they struggle just to get a simple moment to breath before someone comes stomping on them to make themselves look good and get that higher step up in life.

Humans are always fighting and always at war. we have the gnaw to say that animals over populate but look at humans. They are everywhere we are over populated so why is it ok for us to knock them out but it isn't for them to knock us off. Are so special that we have the right to just rip the life away from an animal or even another human being?

People fight, they always will. I don't understand why we can not just get along. It wouldn't kill us to get along with every other person on this planet. How about we work together all of us, instead of just helping our country. We're all people, we all live on this planet together, we should be able to work together without having to kill or start a war on someone.

People dying, everything that happened in this planet is humanities own fault. Even when someone does start causing trouble does anyone step up? Not right away, people are to afraid to help those in need...they don't want to they're afraid. But than there are the few that do go running in trying to save everyone...and what happens to those people? They are insulted and frowned apon. Not only that some people decide that its a great idea to go and protest outside their funeral.

Just look at humans for what they are...pathetic creatures that only care about themselves, they'll destroy if it means they get something great.
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