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| Rational Belief In A Specific God.; So, hang on... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 5 2006, 05:10 AM (1,065 Views) | |
| Seeker | Nov 26 2006, 03:51 AM Post #16 |
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Member
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Gah, I forgot about this topic. I'll try to respond to it tomorrow. G'night! |
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| EnglishRose | Feb 5 2007, 06:39 PM Post #17 |
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Unregistered
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Reading through the first few posts, I'm getting the general jist of this topic. ^^ By the way, Raist, if there's any bad blood between us from past deabtes, forgive me. I know you're above trivial forum drama. :lol: Anyway, back on topic.
Can I tell you a story? One day, a man was talking with God. He said to God, "God, show me a miracle!" At that moment, a butterfly flew past him. He waved it away, and said again, "Lord, show me a miracle!" Just then, thunder clapped in the sky, and rain fell to the ground. The man rushed inside his house, and once again said, "God, show me a miracle!" A few seconds later, the phone rang, and he recieved news that his pregnant sister had just given birth to a baby boy. As he put the phone down, he once again said, "Lord, show me a miracle!" The moral of the story is that God wants to work a miracle in your life, or He wants to come into your heart, but you're either not searching hard enough, or not looking in the right place. Maybe you're looking too hard, when it's so simple. What it comes down to, is, that it's not the amount of faith you have, it's whether you are willing to let your guard down and actually follow through with the "what ifs". God is not the Author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), but He wants you to understand. When people first accept Christ (become a Christian), they feel as if a great burden is lifted. They realise that God loves them, and can save them from the eternal damnation that is promised for all those who choose not to believe in Him. Akiko, a lady at our church, got saved in the summer time, because she realised that very thing. You don't need a "miraculous" experience with God, because who can define miraculous? We all have our own standards, just like the man at the beginning of my post. But when you know you're forgiven, you feel a peace. A miracle takes place there and then. You're right, who can say that the Koran is any different from the Bible, or the Buddhists from the Hindu? Someone put it very well, though, when they said that--- "All religions and beliefs try to find ways to reach up to God and get to Heaven, when Christianity is the only faith where God is reaching down to man, and has already provided the way to Heaven." Unlike Atheism, and other no-God religions and beliefs, Christianity provides hope, that there is life after death. To be honest with you, I don't fear death, because I know I have nothing to fear when it's my time. (1 Corinthians 15:55) If Atheism is right, that there is no God, and we came purely from chance, and we have no Great Authority, than where did moral ethics come from? For example, why do we think it's wrong to kill, isn't it survival of the fittest? I mean to make a point by this, and it's this: Where is the rationality to believe there is no God? If I've completely missed the subject of this topic, forgive me. Jumbled-ness.
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| Raist | Feb 6 2007, 04:19 AM Post #18 |
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The Bringer of the Black Funeral
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I know I haven't been around in awhile and it doesn't look like the Lifestream has really missed me. I oggled at the list of recent topics. Not my thing. Anyway, as I have been away for awhile I'll try to respond to both Nevi and ER. However, because I'm a little lost as to what my main point in this debate would have originally been I shall reply to ER first. Apologies Nevi. Reading through the first few posts, I'm getting the general jist of this topic. ^^ By the way, Raist, if there's any bad blood between us from past deabtes, forgive me. I know you're above trivial forum drama. laugh.gif No need to apologise. Can I tell you a story? One day, a man was talking with God. He said to God, "God, show me a miracle!" At that moment, a butterfly flew past him. He waved it away, and said again, "Lord, show me a miracle!" Just then, thunder clapped in the sky, and rain fell to the ground. The man rushed inside his house, and once again said, "God, show me a miracle!" A few seconds later, the phone rang, and he recieved news that his pregnant sister had just given birth to a baby boy. As he put the phone down, he once again said, "Lord, show me a miracle!" The moral of the story is that God wants to work a miracle in your life, or He wants to come into your heart, but you're either not searching hard enough, or not looking in the right place. Maybe you're looking too hard, when it's so simple. I'm sorry to say this ER, but you're not on my wavelength. Firstly, my problem is with your definition of a miracle. I defined a miracle as a an act ordained by God that violates a law of nature. Nothing which you've just given as examples violates laws of nature. As a miracle is a priori as unlikely as anything can be it is more reasonable to suggest that that butterfly, the thunder and the rain are merely natural events. Now I know this misses the gist of your argument, but I'm just trying to get you back onto what my argument was. That miracles are not a rational basis for believing in God. Secondly, you mention this idea of needing to 'choose' to accept these things as miracles. Are you suggesting I choose to accept the beauty in them (ie. using the term miracle in a somewhat colloquial sense) or that I can view them as miracles ordained by God if I so wish? These things seem far too mundane to consider miracles at all. What would Jesus turning water into wine be considered in comparison? More importantly, what you're suggesting is circular reasoning. If I choose to believe that these are miracles ordained by God then I can see that they are miracles ordained by God. You can't use your conclusion as a premiss for your argument. This isn't so much about making a choice as looking for some objective - I realise that is a limited term here - justification for belief in God. I'm arguing that miracles do not provide that. it's whether you are willing to let your guard down and actually follow through with the "what ifs" This is the problem of faith that William Clifford proposed many years ago. What you are suggesting is making a momentous decision based on insufficient evidence. Again, I realise that insufficient evidence is an ambiguous term but that is not a problem in this case as you are acknowledging that faith is necessary. You're accepting that you're making a decision based on insufficient evidence. Now whether that is as ultimately immoral as Clifford suggested is still up in air but I think it at least suggests that we can't simply 'let our guard down and follow through with the "what ifs"'. Those 'what ifs' are the most important thing we have for rational and ultimately - ideally - beneficial futures. That's a little vague but I can't be bothered clarifying it for the time being. If you'd like me to, I will. When people first accept Christ (become a Christian), they feel as if a great burden is lifted. Again, you're jumping too far ahead. I'm still asking for justification to accept Christ at all. The only possible argument you're presenting for that at the present point is a possible pragmatic one. That we should believe in God (and possibly a Christian God, though that's a more complex argument) as we're better off if we do, regardless of whether there is any truth to the matter and whether we have adequate justification for it. If you do wish to take that path you'll need to expand upon it. "All religions and beliefs try to find ways to reach up to God and get to Heaven, when Christianity is the only faith where God is reaching down to man, and has already provided the way to Heaven." It's an interesting point but I think you'll be hard pressed without further argument to put Christianity above any other religion. Unlike Atheism, and other no-God religions and beliefs, Christianity provides hope, that there is life after death. You make it appear that we need hope for life after death. Again, what you're typing isn't an argument that provides justification for the existence of the Christian God. At the most it is trying to give some pragmatic argument for belief in God regardless of whether we have any good justification to do so. As I've said above this creates a dangerous precedent for the harmful use of faith elsewhere. Faith is too slippery a concept to be used liberally and without criticism. One can lead a happy and fulfilling life as an athiest or agnostic. If Atheism is right, that there is no God, and we came purely from chance, and we have no Great Authority, than where did moral ethics come from? You're assuming that morals have some concrete basis. They don't. Ethics is an incredibly difficult area to apply and concrete certainty to. Our moral etchis don't appear to be ordained or given so much as constantly shaping and evolving. Now you may question how we make such decisions. In a majority of cases it is based upon a very general utilitarian principle; that we should attempt to create the greatest good for the greatest number. It's not difficult to see that our morals and ethics can be created by man for its own purposes. As to why we have developed this function - assuming you're not asking for a scientific reason - then we may only have the same answer that Bertrand Russell gives in response to being asked what caused the universe to begin. It is not a question that has any rational answer on our behalf. For example, why do we think it's wrong to kill, isn't it survival of the fittest? I mean to make a point by this, and it's this: Where is the rationality to believe there is no God? You need to stop thinking of survival of the fittest in such general terms. Think of it in societal and communal terms. Humans stopped acting as individual entities a long time ago. Secondly, Richard Dawkins argues that our evolution (I understand you have issues with this but bear with me) towards a smarter creatures that can create culture, society, art etc has lead to our leaving this notion of survival of the fittest. He suggested that once we could create history and a continuous culture we were no longer succeptible to the notion of natural selection in the same way we once were. A touchy subject but it goes to show that your issues about our morals in spite of other seeming problems are not well grounded. As in reference to disbelief in God; you have several problems. Firstly, yes, if you are an athiest you have a somewhat difficult time on your hands. Most good athiests I've known have argued from two main points. Firstly, the problem of evil has been a glaring issue for some and it certainly has some decent backing if not totally sufficient and secondly I've heard from several people that religion continually attempts to answer questions that it makes no sense to ask. The notion of a soul being a particularly pointed issue. However, I am an agnostic and so your question poses no problem for me. Until I find sufficient evidence to either believe in God or disbelieve in Him I make no decision, but I can tell you that I think it nearby impossible for you to find the kind of justification for a specific God that would be adequate to sway me. What you have to remember, ER, is that the burden for proof is not laid upon the athiests and agnostics. We are making no positive statement. To disbelieve or suspend belief in the absence of evidence is the logical step to take. It is up to you and your religion to provide the proof and reason necessary to make us believe that the Christian God does exist. |
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| Nevi | Feb 16 2007, 06:21 AM Post #19 |
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let us be lovers.
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No problem, I haven't been on lately either so I think I can wait. |
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| Nightmare | Feb 16 2007, 08:31 AM Post #20 |
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Mrs. George Harrison D:
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So sorry to butt in guys, but I just want to give my perspective. I am a Christian and here in the Philippines, the Catholic religion is taught in schools. However, we've came across topics about the ten commandments. In the first commandment, "You shall not have other gods beside me", I clearly understand this and I believe there is a God. One of the appointed sins here is schism. Now, I got few contratries about this, I think parting yourself from the Church and you're not believing the Pope, it clearly has no offenses on the commandment, because you still believe in God. There were times I'm opposed on the existence of God, even though I am a Christian, there is always these scientific theories that explains the creation; either you believe Big Bang or the 7 Days of Creation, being realistic, I believe on scientific theories. No offense to protestants, they said that their religion is actually a sin. I also am offensed for this even being Catholic, but I think what matters here is you being a believer, the only contrast is their beliefs and practices. Things might be coincidents or miracles, but mostly, being very realistic, I don't believe in miracles. I dont' have any experience from it whatsoever that really made me think it is impossible. But there was a time when I was really ill and I was alone in my house. I've slept for hours and I got a dream that made me believe, there is a God. The scenario was like this; God is at the waterfalls, sitting on the rocks. I approached him and asked, "Lord, where can I get some medicine?" then he put his hand on my forehead then said, "You've been cured." When I woke up, I felt better already. Don't worry, I have no troubles getting along with atheists. |
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| EnglishRose | Feb 16 2007, 04:52 PM Post #21 |
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Unregistered
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Sorry about not replying straight away. First of all, Resha, how can you say you're a Christian if you don't believe in Miracles? Jesus performed many miracles in the Bible. If you're a Christian. surely you believe everything the Bible says?
Okay. Fair enough. :) I see what you mean.
No, that's okay. I see your point. Like you said, that's what justifies Faith. This piece of Scripture that I'm going to give to you prolly won't make the slightest difference, but I want to show you it anyway: Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." --John 20:29 Thomas didn't want to believe that Jesus was alive until hehad seen Jesus for himself. That's the kind of faith God requires. By all means, ask questions, but what it comes down to is that what you feel in your heart and soul is what matters. I don't want this to turn into a scientific conversation (we have other topics for that!), but the faith of the Lord is based on knowing what Christ has done for you. It's not just believing; it's actually putting that belief into action and telling God, "Hey, I'm giving my life fully to You." Lucifer believes in God. He knows God's real. But he doesn't want God to rule his life. I think I've stayed from the point a little, but I wanted to say it. :lol:
I wasn't. It's fully up to you if you want to have Christin your heart, between you and God. I'm just telling what happens if you do do it.
It isn't difficult for me. God has laid down the ground rules. Why should it be difficult? We know it's wrong to steal, to murder, even to be rebellious to authority. Why is it difficult to understand when God laid down the Ten Rules over 4,000 years ago? I'm going to try and convert you. :) It's up to you, in the end. I hope you keep searching. |
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| Nightmare | Apr 17 2007, 07:18 AM Post #22 |
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Mrs. George Harrison D:
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I'm sorry for reviving this topic back, but there's an unanswered question left for me:
*winces*, you sound like my teacher--she yelled at me when I told her "I don't believe in miracles". Yes, I don't believe in miracles--but that was, before I had a dream I've said before. Can that be considered as a miracle, ER? In my youth, my family hardly go to church, because the Christian church is in such a great distance away from my home, and rarely you find me reading the Bible. Would you believe me that the only time I knew different kinds of sins is when I transferred here in the Philippines? In South Korea, seldom I hear about Jesus, God and all, and my parents didn't taught much about our religion. |
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| Wintercream | Apr 19 2007, 05:40 PM Post #23 |
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A series of uncommon places
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I would like to ask one question. This has been bothering me for the longest time. And i do hope i do not offend any body with my views but i feel that i cannot think about religon without this question answered, in some sense at least. If there really was a being such as God, who is almighty, powerful, forgiving, and full of love...Then why if there so much suffering in the world? Weren't we created in his image? Weren't we his creation? His people? Why does he allow bad things to happen to us then? Where was he during the world wars? Where was he on 9/11? Where is he when a child is being abused? Or someone is being murdered? Why would he create somthing and then just leave it be? To suffer and die? In the bible it states that he is a selfish God who wants everyone's love. Does that mean if we do not worship him then we are vulnerable to the evil, in any, in the world? Not once throughout my entire life has any of my prayers been answered. How can i belive that he is listening to me? I have gone to church and been a good catholic girl for most of my life and i still have yet to have something that i have prayed for so hard given to me. Didn't he also say "Ask and you shall recieve."? |
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| Nightmare | May 11 2007, 01:59 AM Post #24 |
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Mrs. George Harrison D:
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As a Christian, there are moments I doubt there was God because I believe in scientific theories and random beliefs. But I will tell you the world is not perfect. A firm believer would say: God had given each of his people the gift of freedom to choose right or wrong. Honestly I've been wondering about the word, selfish too. I'm a Christian and I've been living only under one policy: Do good and you go to heaven. I don't even know if I can call myself as a Christian, in my childhood I haven't learned most about Christianity.
Really? Can you name that prayer you wish to be granted? |
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| Wintercream | May 11 2007, 11:50 AM Post #25 |
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A series of uncommon places
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My apologies Resha but it seems to be a bit to personal for me to post. So with all do respect I'd rather not say. But you do make a few very good points however. For example, God gave us the right of freedom to choose. But doesn't that mean he knew what way we would choose before we have choosen it? Meaning he already knew we were or weren't going to heaven? |
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| Nightmare | May 12 2007, 12:49 AM Post #26 |
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Mrs. George Harrison D:
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Oh, I'm sorry. I'm still learning, but from stock knowledge, yeah, he already know we're going to heaven or hell. He knows who we'll end up with, when we're going to die, gawd, the man upstairs knows everything!!! But still, sometimes I think he's not even real.
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| Wintercream | May 14 2007, 04:09 PM Post #27 |
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A series of uncommon places
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Yeah i stopped believing in him a while ago. I guess you can say it somehow faded. To me , a man who noones knows his origins is just plain scary. |
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| goddess_in_pink07 | May 26 2007, 02:38 AM Post #28 |
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Ambrosia
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Well as Resha stated God gave man free will. Free will to choose it accept god or not. Men do many wicked things though. Satan is said to roam the earth to and fro.
This is correct, we are created in his image. Adam was created perfect. He was the first man ever put on this earth. Yet, he sinned. How can something perfect sin? Its all done with free will. It proves that sin is the choice. Its impossible say someone can't resist sin.
God as a purpose for everything. Even if its bound to die, it served the purpose God designed it for.
I don't recall it saying he was selfish, but I do recall it saying he is a jealous God. He wants no other God before him. His is the one and only. God has Rightious wrath. Jesus uses rightious wrath in the synagogue. In the place where all the quote "holy" people were said to be, is where the seed of Satan was. Jesus pointed that out. He revealed that all the priests people trembled and bowed too, were the real evil.
That is a very good question. You have to remember, sometimes things we pray for can take years to happen. My father is a preacher, and I've asked my mother about this. She's told me herself she's prayed for things that took years to happen. We can't always expect to pray for something, and it instantly comes.
I've gone to church my whole life. My parent's devote every minute of their time to God and the Bible. But it takes more than just going to church, being a good person, praying... you have fully devote yourself to God. You have to give him your all, and truely accept him in your heart. God will provide everything you'll need in life. We shouldn't only read and learn about God only on Sunday's. It should be something done everyday. Many, many things have happened in my life that's made me question my own faith. Sometimes I don't even believe in God. I ask so many times, "why". When bad things happen, I wonder what I've done to deserve it. That's why many Chrstian's lose their faith when things in their life go wrong. They question God. God test's people's faith, to see if they've truely accepted Christ. Many people call themselves Christian's, but end up not being lined up with the Bible. But God gives and takes away. We can recieve his blessings, but he can just as well take them away. |
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| Nightmare | May 26 2007, 10:44 AM Post #29 |
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Mrs. George Harrison D:
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O_O sister you rock. I'm starting to have full faith in Him... *reads the Bible more* Uh, question. Can Buddha be considered as a god or some deity? Most Asians are in this religion especially the Chinese Japanese and Korean race though I never got a chance to question some temple priests. |
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| aerislives | May 26 2007, 12:49 PM Post #30 |
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Member
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when god said this he mean't his love.
the lord said all things will happen for a reason small to big some things happen like 9/11,some believe it's the true begining to armagedon by the way don't be afraid of it thats not the end of the world the lord said this is a world without end it purely means end of times end of the evil in the world people who believe that put up a good argument alot of the signs have been fullfilled.
yes this is also true this is were temptation comes from all we have to do is read the book of Job thesame book that brought me to religion it's about a contest between saten and god and job was the subject the devil wanted somebody to tempt to his side he wanted somebody utmost holy so god said hast thou considerd my servant job there is nobody like him on earth. so it begain everything was takin away his crops his sheep his workers his children everything but his faith nobody can take that so in the end the devil gave up and god rewarded job with double everything he had. alot more happens in the story you'll have to read it though to long to type. |
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(1 Corinthians 15:55)
Jumbled-ness.

I'm a Christian and I've been living only under one policy: Do good and you go to heaven. I don't even know if I can call myself as a Christian, in my childhood I haven't learned most about Christianity.

2:08 PM Jul 11