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| This Has Been Bothering Me..; SPOILERS! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 18 2006, 11:05 PM (680 Views) | |
| LadyNelZelpher | Apr 18 2006, 11:05 PM Post #1 |
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Unregistered
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When you find Sephiroth, he says Cloud has too much light in his life. Then, you hear someone scream his name and a strong light flashes.. then you see that the girl screaming was Tifa.. We all know from KH1 that his light is and has always been Aerith, so what does this mean?
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| Luna-Nayru | Apr 19 2006, 12:09 AM Post #2 |
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Boys just wanna get in your tutu.
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A mod will probably move this to the "Kingdom Hearts 2 SPOILERS" forum, but for now, I don't see the harm in pitching in my two cents. ![]() The actual quote Sephiroth uses is that the "light of the present is too much." Light, in my opinion, has a lot to do with the symbolic element of honesty, and ultimately what makes a person whole and self-understanding. It's a very common literary theme that is represented a lot in Kingdom Hearts by things like friendship and romance. I noticed a lot of references to the themes of light in FFVII in the cutscenes in KH2. For example, Sephiroth makes a few suggestions concerning Cloud's past and his muddled perception of who he was and what he was doing. He talks about the darkness in his past that Cloud constantly clings to. I think this is basically a reference to the fact that Cloud is still trying to piece together what has made him the man he is, and what exactly happened to him that changed him into the angsty wanker we know and love. Sephiroth encourages him to cling to his past so that he can not carry on with the light in his present, and can more easily be manipulated. That has always been his role--to screw Cloud over because he is, as Sephy puts it so bluntly, a "puppet." He is constantly respawned from Cloud's dark memories, simply because Cloud cannot let go of the not-so-light-filled memories he has, and is therefore making himself vulnerable for Seph to reappear. That's my basic analysis of Cloud and Sephiroth's issue. But the real question here is, what is Tifa's role in this whole ordeal? Is she simply fanservice? The light and the love of his life? Cloud's half-sister's great-aunt's dog's former owner's second cousin's ex-husband's niece once removed? No, by gum! She is exactly as she was in Final Fantasy VII. A good nine years have passed, and I love how Squeenix has preserved her the way she was and always will be. She is the last living person who really remembers what happened to Cloud in the past. She knows what happened to him. And she's a good friend, and she wants to help him remember. Nobody can deny that she loves him dearly, and would probably jump off a bridge to help him out of a jam. Cloud obviously cares a great deal about her, as well, and I certainly don't blame him. He's seriously confused about his past, so it must be really nice to have somebody who cares enough to reassure him that his memories are real. And that brings me to the battle with Sephiroth. It is very clearly trying to convey a true battle between Cloud and the shrouded memories of his past, represented by Sephiroth. Tifa is the support squad. It is absolutely essential that Tifa is present in this scene if Square is trying to get the right message across. Cloud can't understand his memories and make sense of them fully. He needs Tifa around to help him out in this scene, because she can really counter Sephiroth's claims that his past was all darkness. As she says, she needs to "surround him with light" in order to protect and preserve the truth of his past. But Sephiroth says that his light is in the present, not in the past. I would definitely consider Tifa Cloud's "past" light. It just makes sense to me, and it's fair to the CloTis, but doesn't necessarily scream that they're going to make babies in the present. On that note, I have to comment on Sephiroth's line once again: "The light of the present is too much." He also comments that the light doesn't "suit" Cloud. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's implying that since Cloud is not suited for light, he shuns his present light and looks to his past darkness. Of course, Cloud denies it, but still obviously has doubts about how things are going to work out for him. Sound familiar? I think I know why. Cloud: I don't want you involved. Aerith: You mean, you don't want me there when you go away again? Cloud: I just... Listen. Even if I do go far away... I'll come back. Aerith: Do you mean it? Cloud: Yeah... Aerith: See? You don't look so sure. The impression I got was that Cloud was trying to distance himself from Aerith, for fear that she would get involved in the dark parts of his past. I am very much convinced that she is the person representing his "present" light, and his actions around her might explain why Sephiroth tells him that his present light is too much for him, and he is clinging to the past. People often mistake Nojima's quote that Cloud is running from Tifa to mean that she is the present light that is too much for him, while I am very confident that she is, in fact, that good old past light. Of course he wants to keep her away from Sephiroth, as well. But she is a part of his past, and inevitably is going to get involved with the events. He needs her around, as hard as it might be to admit it, but he doesn't want her to be harmed for fear of losing the light in his past. But of course, he will always need his present light to keep him going, and help him to move on. You see how I can twist everything to be pro-Clerifa? But, um, if you can survive reading that ginormous post, I give you cookies. Hope it makes some sense.
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| LadyNelZelpher | Apr 19 2006, 01:31 AM Post #3 |
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Thank you so much! You make great points there! I hadn't thought about both girls as his light... Aerith as his present light, and Tifa as his past light. What I still don't understand is why you say he feels the light is too much and grabs on to his past darkness. I thought that him wanting to battle Sephiroth again meant he wanted to end it all, and erase that darkness from his life, so he wouldn't have to distance himself from Aerith or anyone else.
Yes, I read it all! *takes cookies*
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| Luna-Nayru | Apr 19 2006, 02:01 AM Post #4 |
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Boys just wanna get in your tutu.
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No problem! That's always the way I've seen Aerith and Tifa in relation to Cloud. Tifa is always great backup for clearing up Cloud's past. Aerith is great for clearing up his future. It's all good. Can't really see why the LTD is still around. :lol:
Very true. I agree 100% that Cloud would certainly love to get Sephiroth out of his life and leave him and everyone he loves alone. But I think he has a lot of doubts about whether he can defeat Sephiroth--he needs to do it alone, as KHII makes clear, but with Aerith and Tifa providing so much support, it seems to me that Cloud is afraid that too much of their involvement will result in tragedy. He has little confidence in himself without the support of his light, as we saw in KHI when he actually made a deal with the lord of the Underworld in order to find his light again. But his lack of confidence, and ultimately his tendency to distance himself from people who want to help him, are what makes him believe that defeating Sephiroth will be impossible. He's just plain afraid of his own weakness, his inability to protect others, and his own meek sense of independence. He doesn't think he can defeat Sephiroth alone, without Aerith and Tifa to help him. But he doesn't think he can defeat Sephiroth with them present, either. What's a poor, confused Cloud to do? The answer is simple: he must do exactly as Aerith encourages him to do: find the light within himself. I think that's what Cloud's constant battle against Sephiroth is all about. Winning means that he has found his light. And that's what Aerith means when she says "No matter how far away you are, once you find your light, I'm sure it will lead you back here." It's not some underlying symbolic statement meaning that Cloud is on a frantic search for his one true love, Tifa. She means he has to fight alone, but by knowing that he has her support, he will survive and win once and for all. It's not over until he can finally believe in himself. And that is the goal of the two embodiments of his light: Aerith and Tifa care about him with all their hearts, and they want him to love himself as much as they love him. Without that feeling of confidence, and without sensing their love, he will not win the fight. And that feeling, I believe, is the true, no-sugar-added definition of one's inner light. ![]()
Hooray! *loves it when people read her ramblings*
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| Alantie | Apr 19 2006, 02:03 AM Post #5 |
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Dreams the world far away
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I think I understand what Luna means about the light being too much for Cloud at times. After dwelling in darkness for so long, Cloud must feel that he doesn't deserve to be in the light, or that he's done too much wrong. It's easier for him to allow himself to fall back to the darkness, and he has to fight to keep himself in the light. He relapses from time to time, which is normal. It's hard for him to let go of the past and move on. Er. . . if that makes any sense at all. Maybe I'm just rambling. Or maybe that isn't what Luna meant. Edit: Arg, lol. Such a slow poster! Anyway, yes, I agree too with the fact that Cloud is afraid to have the girls involved because it might end up with one of them getting hurt. Also the other stuff you said makes sense, I'm just too tired to respond now :) And as for the light thing, in another thread I wrote this, but I'll sum it up again. Tifa and Aerith are BOTH Cloud's light, but in different ways. I believe the light in a person's heart is born of the strong connections you share with others through friendship or romance. Through those relationships it makes your heart stronger and better able to withstand the darkness around you. Tifa offers Cloud light through their friendship, along with her clearer sight of his past than his own 'clouded' image, if you pardon the pun Aerith offers light in that she understands him better than anyone, and she loves and accepts all of him for what he is. She doesn't allow him to wallow in darkness and forget to live. I dunno if any of that makes sense, but that's just my take on things!
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| Lynn | Apr 19 2006, 04:58 AM Post #6 |
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Lynn has no Lloud smut ;-;
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*rains love all over Luna* How I've missed your rambly posts! ![]() Me like your explanation muchly because it parallels the events in FFVII so well. The FFVII cameos, unlike the other FFs, do have a relation to their original game-- so I think any theories surrounding them needs to take into account the events and overtones from FFVII. (Which is what the Cleris have been saying about KH1 since the beginning of time, but I'll let that slide. :rolleyes: )
Just to touch on this, I find SE seemed to move in this direction not only for Cloud, but for Sora as well. Back in the old days of charming KH1, it was crystal clear that Kairi = Sora's light. But fastforward to KH2, and there's the (very kickass, I might add) scene of Sora lying on the beach, holding Riku and Kairi's hands on both sides. I think this is SE's way of saying your light doesn't just have to come from one person-- the scene made me feel as if Kairi and Riku are both Sora's lights. They're both important to him, just in different ways. I think they've applied the same concept to Cloud. Aerith and Tifa are both important to him in different ways-- the LTD just comes up because neither side can agree which girl is important romantically. |
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| Kaldea | Apr 19 2006, 05:20 AM Post #7 |
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fantôme
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I dunno... I found much more Sora/Riku than Sora/Kairi in KH2. ![]() Anyway, my point of view is that no person(s) is/are Cloud's light. The light he seeks is within him. I'll just post a little in-depth something I wrote after I saw the scene after beating Sephiroth. *Lazy*
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| LadyNelZelpher | Apr 19 2006, 02:46 PM Post #8 |
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Thank you all so much for explaining this to me! I'm so happy you know so much about this! Now everything makes sense.
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| Ally McBeal | Apr 19 2006, 05:34 PM Post #9 |
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Advanced Member
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tifa's cloud past ligth? that could be possbile if it wasn't cause in kh..aerith was..the childhood friend with cloud he always lived with her in radiant gardent :lol:
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| Amathala | Apr 20 2006, 04:11 PM Post #10 |
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Snoogans!
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I read that quote in TNC, and I loved it. It's really a neutral way to look at things. I often wonder why some people just dont see it that way. I mean, I can see a way to be neutral, but I guess some hardcore fans just cant. *pictures people foaming at the mouths in front of their computers, fingers going at 100wps (second)* Great thinking, Remy. With that kind of thinking, everyone wins. Sometimes I think that we need to see a bit more of that. |
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| lalagirl | Apr 23 2006, 01:16 AM Post #11 |
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Think Happy Thoughts
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uhm.. someone please counter this: i told this theory to a friend of mine (who happens to be neutral -- she doesn't like guys like cloud, she says they're tiring, she instead likes guys like tidus) anyway.. when i told her about this.. she said, "what if aeris is cloud's past light, and tifa's his present light, that would explain why he winced when her light shone.. because the light of the present is too much for him" i dunno... i don't believe in what she said. i personally think that cloud's light is within himself and that he already found it (aeris) but he needs to vanquish his darkness first (sephiroth). although my cleris mind must be waaay biased.. the thing is, i dunno how to conuter her statement.. elp? |
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| Shiva | Apr 25 2006, 11:03 PM Post #12 |
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Legendary Member
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I think Digital Holocaust summed it up pretty well. I really hope she doesn't mind me reposting this... ![]()
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Sephiroth encourages him to cling to his past so that he can not carry on with the light in his present, and can more easily be manipulated. That has always been his role--to screw Cloud over because he is, as Sephy puts it so bluntly, a "puppet." He is constantly respawned from Cloud's dark memories, simply because Cloud cannot let go of the not-so-light-filled memories he has, and is therefore making himself vulnerable for Seph to reappear. That's my basic analysis of Cloud and Sephiroth's issue.

Edit: Arg, lol. Such a slow poster! Anyway, yes, I agree too with the fact that Cloud is afraid to have the girls involved because it might end up with one of them getting hurt. Also the other stuff you said makes sense, I'm just too tired to respond now :) 

I'm so happy you know so much about this! Now everything makes sense.



2:45 PM Jul 11