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What Made Cloud Stronger?; Reference to Sephiroth's line
Topic Started: Mar 15 2006, 03:16 AM (1,101 Views)
Whisper
Member
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It's just the way I see the Planet operating-- not as we do, we who recognise self-sacrifice and may reward/exalt the person; but almost as an animal, working on instinct alone. It keeps Aerith around because it needs her, not because it thinks she deserves a little bit of happiness for helping it.

Yesss, I fully agree with this idea (I tried to avoid bringing the Planet’s nature into this already complicated discussion...). The Planet is not a ‘god’ who would consciously punish sin and reward virtue, and it definitely doesn’t care much for mankind as such. It’s portrayed in both Weapons and the Holy – the ultimate goal of the Planet seems preserving some sort of balance, and anything threatening this balance invites ‘divine’ retribution, but I don’t think it’s even capable of recognizing human morality. And in addition to that, a life that’s lost isn’t truly ‘lost’ to the planet, being eventually returned to the Lifestream and... um, ‘recycled’ into new beings... so it doesn’t make much sense to care for survival of individuals or punish/reward them for their actions. In this respect the Planet and all things that were/are/will be living on it’s surface are always connected and can - almost - be considered one being (I’m not sure, but isn’t it pretty close to what’s called “Gaia theory” IRL?).

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This is just something that occurred to me, but I suppose you could almost say that while Sephiroth's remnants resided in the Northern Crater, Aerith's remnants resided within Cloud's soul. But while Sephiroth's remnants took physical shape and form, probably thanks to Jenova's influence, Aerith's remnants took on a more spiritual shape.

Thank you for your explanation (and trust me... no need to feel “kinda bad for... anyone who reads” your post here :P ). To tell the truth, personally I always thought Aerith ‘resides’ in the Lifestream, so I don’t really understand ‘within Cloud’s soul’ part (unless you mean this in more metaphorical sense... but that wouldn’t help their meetings all that much). But on the other hand, I get the feeling that your theory and the ‘spiritual connection’ concept are very much alike, the main difference is in the description.
Although...
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However, I believe that the Aerith he saw at the end was not the spirit residing within him, but the Aerith whose presence continued to remain in the Lifestream after her death, only given physical shape and form.

Now I am confused again. Her spirit residing within Cloud is something separate from her spirit in the Lifestream? And he is able to meet – not at the same time, but still - with both? Forgive me if I’m taking this too literally, but where exactly does this... “soul-split” idea come from? While I kind of agree with the
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Who's to say that, due to this unique combination of events, Aerith and Zack's souls weren't able to take form for the briefest times, just to say their final goodbyes to Cloud?

part, it seems equally good with the ‘Lifeastream Aerith’ alone. As I saw it, ALL their interactions in AC were various degrees of contact between Cloud (very much alive, though in dire need) and Aerith (dead and remaining as a separate entity within the Lifestream). Of course, this is all theorizing, and applying strict logic to ‘spiritual connections’ and visions of the dead doesn’t have to be the best approach, but I’m not sure if bringing the ‘spirit residing within Cloud’ into this is really necessary.

In addition to that, although she looks very real in the church scene, I’m not sure how many people can actually see her. The children – definitely, but somehow the Avalanche failed to notice her at all... so I’m not sure if Cloud truly saw her with his physical eyes. The ‘white flowerfield’ scene was definitely something purely spiritual, but I wouldn’t wager how much difference was there between the Bahamut scene and the church scene. Her and Zack taking form, showing themselves to Cloud – all right, but I doubt they fully ‘returned’, solid and visible to all, even for the briefest moment (for all we know, only Jenova can manage such feats).
Hope this makes sense...

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In Calling we see Cloud travelling through them on his bike. And if he takes photos, he obviously has to take them..well..physically in a physical place, no? The only flowerfield we are actually shown him travelling through are the ones in Calling. I see no sense for it to be different flowerfields, when very obviously that is the flowerfield showcased the most, and also the only flowerfield (in reality) that Cloud visits.

Well, if you put it that way... I like to see the “Calling” flowerfield as something separate because it seems to have a very symbolic meaning: RL landscape instead of animated one (suggests it’s something different... though it might be just because pixels cost money), bright colors (VERY different from the drab palette of AC), feeling of freedom (Cloud’s free from his guilt, free to live his life again), Aerith’s presence (she’s always with him, and will always remain)... It just makes a lot of sense that way, thus the symbolic ‘inner landscape’ theory.
However, if you insist on taking the “Calling” flowerfield literally, as an actual place Cloud visits and picks up flowers for his desk... OK, I have no real problem with that. It’ just that I’d still say that even if you take the landscape itself literally, then Aerith’s presence there would be rather a symbol of her continued presence then real, flesh-and-blood person he can hold in his arms (for my reasons, see my first overlarge post up there...). Because of that, I prefer to take this entire scene as a symbol, with those yellow flowers on his desk linking it to reality and hinting things to LT crowd (as in “no, he’s not going to forget her and happily marry anytime soon”), but it’s just my preference. Our perspective on the flowerfield itself isn’t all that important, the main topic always was Cloud ‘meeting’ Aerith there, and I’ve already stated my reasons for not believing this (in the aforementioned big post).

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And finally all the photos are now of that flowerfield. Somehow it symbolizes he's found IT, whatever it may be. The point that Aerith is shown in that flowerfield seems to only emphasize that IT just might be her.

We don’t really disagree here... I don’t think anyone could disagree that Cloud’s searching for her in AC (Clotis will tell you he’s just looking for forgiveness, but STILL he needs it from Aerith... no way out :P ). Obviously he’s going to flowerfields after AC (though I heard someone stating that it must’ve been someone else who took the photos... most likely, the rest of Avalanche on a field trip. Oh well. <_< ), and him going to flowerfields has a lot to do with Aerith. So we agree on this one... he searched and he found – the only question is, what exactly does that mean.

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I mean yes, he can feel her but then what is he doing there? (this is the question I've been interested in for a lo-o-ong time) He can take the flowers and those fotos because he can't always be in the flowerfield and wants to have something that is always with him. But as we are shown in Reminiscence he is going to spend the entire day there. Again, what is he doing to do there then?

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I don't understand why Cloud would go to just any flowerfield to pick flowers and take pictures of.

Well, as I’ve already provided my views on his possible reasons for spending time in flowerfields (my first post on page 2, the longest one), I don’t have much to add. For clarity: my belief (‘cause honestly, that’s all it is; interpretation of “Calling” was pure guesswork from the beginning) is that going to flowerfields IS his way of spending time with her. He used to go to (and live in) the church for that reason. He visited her grave, as most people do when trying to feel close with departed ones. But after AC, he doesn’t have to just ‘remember’ her like this; he knows she’s always with him, and seeking her out among (often painful) memories serves no purpose anymore. She is with him wherever he goes, so, if he wants to feel closer to her, he may as well go to a place she would probably like. She loved flowers, after all, she even appeared to him on a flowerfield (the ‘white’ one – I’m pretty sure he remembered that meeting well), so her connection to them seems pretty solid.
Can he feel her presence there, in some special way? Who knows... While I definitely don’t believe he can physically meet her at any earthly flowerfield, it’s impossible to rule out some form of more or less direct spiritual communication.
And even if it’s just a feeling of subtle closeness at most, perhaps him ‘taking her’ to a place she’d like, maybe also a way of showing her he truly is all right and isn’t “torturing himself” anymore...
...don’t you think she’d like that?
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Lynn
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Lynn has no Lloud smut ;-;
Lynx
Mar 20 2006, 02:27 PM
Well, that was my brief guess-work 'cause I didn't have a lot of time to think over this. But now I think I have to agree with you, Lynn. Really, I wasn't thinking about that when I was writing my previous post. Nah, I'll never learn to debate. :(

Gah, Lynx, don't worry about these things. :huggle: We're just having fun discussing stuff here, none of this "I debate bad, you debate good" stuff. If you have something to say, just say it!

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He can take the flowers and those fotos because he can't always be in the flowerfield and wants to have something that is always with him. But as we are shown in Reminiscence he is going to spend the entire day there.

Actually, I don't believe the translation in Reminiscence actually stated Cloud was going to stay there the whole day (which is to be expected, considering all the Cleris implications it would carry, and that would completely ruin SE's stance on the LT).

I believe Cloud simply told Tifa to close the shop, and it was left up to us what he decided to do after that. So he could have spent the rest of the day there; or he could've taken pictures, spent some time there reminiscing over Aerith, talked to the flowers :lol: and gone home.

Whisper
 
In this respect the Planet and all things that were/are/will be living on it’s surface are always connected and can - almost - be considered one being (I’m not sure, but isn’t it pretty close to what’s called “Gaia theory” IRL?).

Granted, I'm making this conclusion after spending about ten minutes reading a brief introduction of the Gaia Theory-- but I do find them similar. I'll also leave the discussion here, as our current topic is taking enough space as is!

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Thank you for your explanation (and trust me... no need to feel “kinda bad for... anyone who reads” your post here :P ).

Eep! What're you doing over at Devotion?! :blush: Who are you?

Talk! Or I'll chop them off. :cloud:

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Now I am confused again. Her spirit residing within Cloud is something separate from her spirit in the Lifestream? And he is able to meet – not at the same time, but still - with both? Forgive me if I’m taking this too literally, but where exactly does this... “soul-split” idea come from?

It mainly came from watching Aerith interact with the children in the ending. For most of Cloud's interactions with her in the movie, I've always seen it taking place within him-- in his conscience, sub-conscience, what-have-you. The change in atmosphere (very apparent in the Bahamut scene), Cloud's lack of surprise in the first meeting, the whole different feeling both scenes had-- I found it hard to believe a living, breathing Aerith reached out her flesh-and-blood hand to lift Cloud up to Bahamut in the flame.

And then suddenly, I'm faced with a scene of Aerith interacting with flesh-and-blood children, when before this she has only ever appeared to Cloud (and that's not even considering how AVALANCHE didn't seem to notice her at all, which I also find curious).

Furthermore, seemingly out of nowhere, Zack is there right beside her when he's only appeared in flashbacks before this. Is he there because of Aerith's Cetra powers? If she's able to bring him back with her at will, why didn't she do so when speaking to Cloud in the flowerfields? Was it because she wanted "alone time" with Cloud?

If the flowerfield and Bahamut scenes took place in Cloud's head, it would make sense if you believe he pinpointed Aerith's death as the source of his guilt and his strength. That would explain why she, and not she and Zack, appeared.

But it's mostly because she's shown addressing the children. As I'd said, if Aerith had simply walked out of the church, I would have wrapped that scene up as happening in Cloud's head again.

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As I saw it, ALL their interactions in AC were various degrees of contact between Cloud (very much alive, though in dire need) and Aerith (dead and remaining as a separate entity within the Lifestream).

What are your thoughts on Aerith contacting Cloud in the two scenes? Do you believe she was able to reach out from the Lifestream to communicate with him? If so, how? Do you think the Planet allowed her to do it because of the danger the SHM posed to it?

If I recall correctly, in MOTP, Aerith was unable to reach out to Cloud when he fell into the Lifestream. She tried hard, but her voice simply could not reach him. I can't imagine it became easier to communicate with him while he was on the surface world.

(I'm interested to hear your take on this, and I apologise if you've already touched on this in your previous posts. I checked through them, but I suppose I could've missed it. Feel free to point me in the right direction if so. ^^)

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though I heard someone stating that it must’ve been someone else who took the photos... most likely, the rest of Avalanche on a field trip. Oh well. <_<

:lmao:

...

:lmao:

There you go, yin-chan, your answer to the photos. Cloud didn't take them, nope. The whole AVALANCHE did and they're making a daisy scrapbook together!

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And even if it’s just a feeling of subtle closeness at most, perhaps him ‘taking her’ to a place she’d like, maybe also a way of showing her he truly is all right and isn’t “torturing himself” anymore...
...don’t you think she’d like that?

That I do. ^_^ I think one of the members here also suggested that Cloud shown travelling in CALLING (and presumably after AC) was one of his ways to take Aerith to see the world, as that was something she loved very much. At the same time, he would be able to enjoy the world she loved and not secluding himself from it anymore.
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Whisper
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What are your thoughts on Aerith contacting Cloud in the two scenes? Do you believe she was able to reach out from the Lifestream to communicate with him? If so, how? Do you think the Planet allowed her to do it because of the danger the SHM posed to it?

Actually, my thoughts on this are not much different from what you described. The only problem I have with your description is it makes it look as if there are TWO ‘spirits’ of Aerith, existing as separate entities, and I’m not sure if there is enough basis for such reasoning (not to mention it seems to unnecessarily complicate things). But this said, I generally agree with your theory, it’s just that I prefer to avoid having ‘two Aeriths’ in all this.

So IMO:
The ‘white’ flowerfield is definitely a purely spiritual contact, while his guilt is still preventing him from seeing her (I’m not going into details, since everyone seems to agree with this statement).

The ‘Bahamut scene’ MAY be something different. I know it’s often used as a proof that Cloud and Aerith can make physical contact, but as stated somewhere above (losing track of my own posts already? I’m really out of shape these days...) I don’t think there’s enough basis for that. Now, I’m not sure if this ‘meeting’ was also a purely spiritual thing, or if he actually saw her there. The first would make it a contact that happens in his mind (soul, heart...) only, the other would be a vision, but the difference is not relevant to the question of how real her appearance is. In BOTH cases it would be something entirely subjective to Cloud (though in the ‘vision’ scenario it’s possible that someone with enough ability or natural affinity to such things could also see or sense her... this may be important later).

The important thing is she’s helping him survive in Bahamut’s fireball, lending her help as the rest of Avalanche did – and that she didn’t truly materialize over the Edge. Did he feel her touch? Possibly, but at the same time, I highly doubt if it was as solid a grip as that of Avalanche members. Her hand seems to be dissolving into Lifestream the moment he touches her, and the moment she appears has a distinctly different feel (whiteness, silence... the “change in atmosphere” you mentioned) to it.

Now, the church. Zack aside, I think this scene may be seen as not much different from the Bahamut one. If you look at the moment when Cloud wakes up in the pond, you notice that there’s no one at the door. It seems as if both Zack and Aerith appeared out of the blue just second’s before Cloud noticed them – and yet, she somehow instructed the children about his appearance (unless you think the ‘onee-chan’ they’re referring to is Tifa, but somehow I cannot imagine her knowing this... and setting the children in that ritual circle around his supposed location... mystery). So she’s definitely interacting with the children, and not just the two she’s talking to at the ending – but if she was fully there, someone else (Avalanche!) would’ve noticed her... and while most of the children know nothing about her (so ‘onee-chan’ is hardly big news to them), I think that if Marlene saw her there’d be a big fuss... but nothing like this happens. So it seems Marlene is excluded from seeing her just as Avalanche. That makes me believe she’s just a vision there, just like she was (perhaps...) during the Bahamut scene.

How come the children see her? I’m not sure if it’s official or just some interpretation I read somewhere, but I think it’s stated that sometimes the children can see/sense the ‘spirits’, and lose that ability a they grow up. This may be complete bogus, but I have no better theory at the moment. Perhaps Aerith can choose who is able to see her? But then, why exclude poor Marlene, who refers to her as “her favorite person” in the opening sequence?

So in short, yes, I think she was able to reach to him from the Lifestream and communicate with him. Perhaps his need made it possible, and his “searching” for her, perhaps she tried hard herself, seeing how desperately he needed to contact her. I try to avoid bringing the Planet into this, but then, the Planet’s more direct influence cannot be ruled out either.

How does Zack fit into this? No idea. :P I’ll let someone else come up with some brilliant theory concerning his appearance, though I cannot see how could he possibly come to Cloud unless it was Aerith’s doing (CAN she do that?).

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If I recall correctly, in MOTP, Aerith was unable to reach out to Cloud when he fell into the Lifestream. She tried hard, but her voice simply could not reach him. I can't imagine it became easier to communicate with him while he was on the surface world.

Digging up MOtP...
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Aerith was eager to talk to Cloud as his living body flowed out of the swirl. She had been trying to while his body was being carried to Mideel. But with his mind shattered and filled with despair, Cloud couldn't hear Aerith's voice. No matter how much she cried out, her voice wouldn't reach Cloud just like the time when they were separated in the Forgotten City.

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"It's impossible for us to do it. The only one who can do it is that girl that was there with us in Nibelheim, Tifa. If the memories she has could draw out the memories in Cloud then maybe..."

So you have it – it was Cloud’s condition AND the need for Tifa’s memories that made Aerith’s efforts futile at that moment. As none of the above conditions apply anymore... That doesn’t mean contacting him is quick and easy, but I don’t think MOtP says anything about it being impossible.

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Eep! What're you doing over at Devotion?! Who are you?

:lmao: No one. Just a regular lurker... while I join very few sites (need to concentrate my efforts, all this posting takes TIME!), I lurk at dozens, and as you use the same name there... no big secret. Ah, and while I’m not a member at AC.net at all, I recently noticed they DO have a Whisper there, and she’s a member in... Faith. So just in case, she’s not me.
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yin-chan
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*dreamchaser*
Lynn
 
There you go, yin-chan, your answer to the photos. Cloud didn't take them, nope. The whole AVALANCHE did and they're making a daisy scrapbook together!


:lmao:
Eeek, Avalanche field trip!!! Maybe Yuffie made sandwiches. *imagines the entire Avalanche packed and heaped and squashed atop one another on Fenrir* :lol:

Oooh this discussion has taken an interesting twist!! *feels lucky the flowerfield discussion has almost ended* Like FFG said in Devotion, the most important thing is that Cloud is able to feel Aerith there - wheter physically or spiritually it doesn't really matter. :cleris:

Lynn
 
I think one of the members here also suggested that Cloud shown travelling in CALLING (and presumably after AC) was one of his ways to take Aerith to see the world, as that was something she loved very much. At the same time, he would be able to enjoy the world she loved and not secluding himself from it anymore.


I really like that!! Aerith always wanted to see the world, she wanted to ride the Highwind too! I think that would be an extremely cute display of Cloud's affection, if that's really what is running through his mind as he travels the world. ^_^

Whisper
 
The important thing is she’s helping him survive in Bahamut’s fireball, lending her help as the rest of Avalanche did – and that she didn’t truly materialize over the Edge. Did he feel her touch? Possibly, but at the same time, I highly doubt if it was as solid a grip as that of Avalanche members. Her hand seems to be dissolving into Lifestream the moment he touches her, and the moment she appears has a distinctly different feel (whiteness, silence... the “change in atmosphere” you mentioned) to it.


But when she touched him in the flowerfield scene -- we don't see her hand dissolving into anything, do we? In fact it looks rather solid, and Cloud even reacts to her touch. :unsure:

The Bahamut hand reach scene - I presumed the white lines flowing from her hand to his to be some sort of.... energy-transfer-thing ... that helped him up the final bit. :lol: Perhaps it was the lifestream, but somehow I can't imagine Aerith melting everytime she touches him. :ph34r:

Whisper
 
Ah, and while I’m not a member at AC.net at all, I recently noticed they DO have a Whisper there, and she’s a member in... Faith. So just in case, she’s not me.


:razz: Ah, Whisper's alter-ego!! Admit thy true identity, fiend!! :shifty:

I kid, I kid. So the lurker has spoken. :D Why don't you just join? :unsure:
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Shiva
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*Agrees with yin-chan* :yes:

Either explanation is possible. Not only that, but I see both as very likely.

What I don't understand is people putting down the idea of Cloud being able to meet with Aerith physically. Haven't we already proven that death means nothing in the world of FF? I mean, in a world where Sephiroth can return in the body of a remnant for a final battle with Cloud, what is so unbelievable about the spirit of a flower girl communicating with and interacting with Cloud? :dunno: She did touch Cloud in his vision. And I think it was more than just a vision. I believe Aerith truly touched Cloud, because, right after that, he began to lose his guilt (just as Aerith touching Dyne cleansed him of his sins so he was able to meet Eleanor again). How could she do that if it were merely a metaphor and/or a dream? :ermm: Cloud was physically thrown into that white world. Did you not see him stumble? And, then, when Cloud was placed back into reality (just in time to keep him from getting ambushed-- thanks Aerith! :lmao: ), he was still in the same pose he was before (looking over his shoulder). If this was all just a dream, why the physical motions?

Just because Cloud doesn't start screaming in shock and jumping up and down when he realizes he is there with Aerith, it doesn't mean that he talks in his head to Aerith all the time. Honestly... is Cloud the type of person to react like that anyways? And, IMO, he did look surprised! :P He didn't act as if this is the first time he has felt Aerith's presence, but he did act as though this was the first time they had talked.

Also, Cloud and Aerith interacted physically in the Bahamut battle. Aerith came down and grabbed him, boosting him into the battle. They held hands for several moments. And, as for Aerith's hand "dissolving into the Lifestream".... :blink: I saw a white glow, not green. Isn't Lifestream green? And the glow looked as if it transferred itself to Cloud who, immediately afterward, performed his Climhazzard Limit Break on Bahamut. Was this Aerith's Fury Brand Limit Break? Maybe.... :dunno:

Seriously, guys, when Aerith is able to heal Cloud from a near-fatal gunshot; heal everyone on the planet from Geostigma; defeat the 3 SHM; act as a counselor to Cloud, cleansing him of his sins and easing his grief; and perform Limit Breaks (even though she is technically "dead"), what makes you think that meeting with Cloud now and again is a problem? I am not saying that she now exists in the flower field only and waits there for Cloud all the time. That is a little overboard. I am not even saying she appears there every time Cloud goes there. But, I believe that he can feel her presence there, hear her voice, and, every now and again, interact with her on a more physical level. I don't think appearing is something Aerith can do all the time. I am not sure how much energy she needs for such a manifestation. But, she did it numerous times in AC. She even spoke with and interacted with children (which most certainly wasn't a vision).

Do you know how easy it would have been to just leave those couple of screens of Aerith out of "Calling"? It would have been pretty easy to just show Cloud riding down the road and decide for yourself where he is going. However, the creators wanted to show him going out to meet Aerith. And Aerith is shown as a solid figure, not as a transparent ghost-like apparition. She isn't shown surrounded in a white glow, like a spirit. She is shown looking like a normal person, as if interacting with the physical world isn't difficult for her at all.

The bottom line: I think both ideas work and work together. Cloud visits the flower field because he feels Aerith's presence very strongly there. He can probably speak with her and hear her voice, too. And, on rare occasions, I believe he can see her, maybe even touch her. :cleris: But, that is just my take on it. Tear it apart if you want. -_-
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Clerith-son
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In the middle of dawn. Staring at the twilights.
I was thinking: What if Aerith was a memory of Cloud's?

I'm came up with this after some scene I watched while playing Dragon Quest VIII, in wich there was this King that was depressed because his Queen had died. That King had carried all that pain and sorrow since she had died, and didn't wanted to be helped. Anyways you (as the hero) are supposed to help him, by finding this guy who supposedly, can resurrect her. Once you find him, he tells you that it is impossible to retrieve lost lives, but that he was indeed able to help that King.

By playing some special harp of his, he was able to show the King memories of his belove Queen, memories that could encourage him, things that she once told him to support him or to make him stronger. At the end, even if it was just a memory the King was able to get rid of his depression and continue with his life.

Even if Cloud's and that King's situations are not exactly the same, are in some degree similar. So, where I'm trying to go is, that maybe Aerith wasn't exactly there, but what Cloud saw and the lifting he got to get out of his depression, was indeed Aerith doing. I think that she as a Cetra, or someone that has become one with the Planet, has the ability of reaching people (or those they once met, or the ones they care for), she did something alike with Cloud, as the Harp Guy did with the Emo King in Dragon Quest VIII.

For example, in the Flower Field scene, What were the things shown? Flowers (Obvioulsy), soft white colour in what would be supposed to be the sky, and Aerith. Those were things that Cloud, was probably reminded of, when thinking of Aerith.
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Lynx
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~handle with care~
I was pretty tired to reply yesterday, so excuse me :P

Lynn
 
Gah, Lynx, don't worry about these things.  We're just having fun discussing stuff here, none of this "I debate bad, you debate good" stuff. If you have something to say, just say it!

Not that I'm not having fun here (I do, really) but sometimes I become confused reading everyone's replies. But anyway, thanks for support :huggle:

Clerith-son
 
What if Aerith was a memory of Cloud's?

Well, I don't think so. I don't think that memories can heal, use limit breaks, give the powers and bring back to life :peace:
But the similarities you've noticed are interesting to read. Thanks for sharing.

That's it. I think I'm beginning to understand. An answer from the Planet...
We are free to think if he meets her in spirit, in his head or meet her physically. I think all of them have reasons to exsist. The result is the same: Cloud goes to Aerith. No matter how can they communicate (at least we all agree, that he feels her, right?) he still chooses her over Tifa (in romantical meaning :) ). They, I mean Cloud and Aerith, can communicate like normal people or they can't do it. But still, what is most important, that he doesn't forget her, keeps those flowers and photos so they can be with him all the time.
I understand that it's pretty interesting how they communicate but it resembles me our situation with Clotis. Even if we are giving them enough proofs they still don't believe they're true. <_<
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cloud_n_aerith_strife
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aeirth is clouds one and only
after giving it much thought I half agree with whisper, but my theory is he CAN meet with her in that flowerfield, but just not all of the time. I think he goes to that flowerfield because he always feels her prescence there. I think in the end of calling when she was standing in the flowerfield and he was riding near the field, that this was just one of those times that he might of been able to meet Aerith in the field, meet her physically rather. I don't think it's at all impossible that he can meet her there, but sorry I believe I have already stressed this.
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Sadhana
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capitalism is dead
All this interesting discussion (off topic but interesting nonetheless XD) has given me an idea for a fanfic :yahoo: . I'll write that soon.

On with the flowerfield... I don't know if Aerith exists solely as a memory now to Cloud, but I think that he does treasure his memories of her very dearly. Afterall, he did call the church where they met "my place" and lived there when he couldn't trust Tifa with his condition. But I do believe that's the purpose of the pictures on his desk and the daisies. So he can have that constant memory of her and the flowerfield- perhaps where their spirits can 'meet' each other.
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Clerith-son
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In the middle of dawn. Staring at the twilights.
Lynx
 
Well, I don't think so. I don't think that memories can heal, use limit breaks, give the powers and bring back to life :peace:

I guess I didn't explained myself correctly. When I said that Aerith was memory, I meant the Aerith that Cloud saw in the flower field, in the battle against Bahamut and in the Church at the end.

I DO belive Aerith was somewhat present, but in a different way people use to think. I think she was in the movie, in spirit. What I think is that she indeed healed Geostigma and helped Cloud, but the way I think she helped Cloud, was by using the memories of her within him, and in that way lift him up. From this idea of mine, he never actually got to see her, but he indeed felt her presence, and it was that what I think made him feel he wasn't alone, well, that and the fact that his friends were always there for him.

Anyways back on topic, what I think that made Cloud stronger, was the fact that he was fighting for everything he cared for.
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Whisper
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Funny to see how this discussion recently infected Devotion... this took a solid bite out of my week, I feel like wrapping this up for now (I need to continue my own writing, and it’s not even in the same language!). So, the (hopefully) last of my oversized posts on the flowerfield subject...
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I believe Aerith truly touched Cloud, because, right after that, he began to lose his guilt (just as Aerith touching Dyne cleansed him of his sins so he was able to meet Eleanor again). How could she do that if it were merely a metaphor and/or a dream? Cloud was physically thrown into that white world. Did you not see him stumble?

For starters, Dyne... was long dead too, so it’s not much of a problem. As for the rest... we’re going into such minute details here that it’s no longer possible to provide any real evidence, so I obviously cannot prove “purely spiritual” character of the ‘white’ flowerfields meeting. As I see it, she could touch him BECAUSE it was a vision; it couldn’t happen in the real world. Actually a dream comparison is not a bad one at all, you can feel touch within a dream... As for him being physically thrown into the ‘white world’... well, perhaps it could happen. I don’t think even Aerith has that kind of power, not to mention it’s not really necessary at the moment, but I have no way of proving this. So, he’s taken from Fenrir and somehow drawn into this world, stumbles (though... wouldn’t suddenly removing him from Fenrir end in the bike crashing due to balance issues?) and after few seconds is placed back where he was, without loosing control over the machine. Looks complicated...
...though you probably could say that the time flow on the ‘white’ flowerfield is different than it is in the physical world, so he was gone and back in the blink of an eye...
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And, then, when Cloud was placed back into reality (...), he was still in the same pose he was before (looking over his shoulder). If this was all just a dream, why the physical motions?

Uh, If he was truly in the same pose, he’d end up standing on top of the Fenrir... ouch. That’d hurt. So, instead of believing Aerith carefully placed him in the required position (possible, but...), I’d rather assume he never really left the bike. In the physical world, he just sort of... spaced out for a few seconds (while driving through the woods... still bad timing, if you ask me). And as for him looking over his shoulder – we saw that Aerith’s words startled him and made him try to face her for the first time; the dream comparison is once again dead on, it’s not unusual for the sleeping person to mimic some movements made in a dream (especially the more sudden ones).

This may seem as if I’m picking at straws to make my point, but it’s just my way of interpretation of some of the more mysterious stuff; as this is Final Fantasy AND Aerith we’re talking about, it cannot be said with certainty what would and what would not be possible. It’s just that I usually prefer the simplest working explanation, the one that requires the least assumptions and smallest involvement of supernatural powers. The “spiritual contact” theory, while it explains everything just as well, doesn’t stretch my imagination as much, so I prefer it to the “thrown into white world” alternative – but obviously it’s just my take on things.

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And, IMO, he did look surprised! He didn't act as if this is the first time he has felt Aerith's presence, but he did act as though this was the first time they had talked.

Agreed. perhaps not exactly as surprised as he was in the church during the ending, but I don’t think he took it all that naturally.
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I saw a white glow, not green. Isn't Lifestream green?

Well, I looked at this scene a few times before replying. The white background (the same whiteness that was seen over the ‘white’ flowerfield, the whiteness that removes blue glow of Bahamut’s flare and into which Aerith disappears at the ending) is a little confusing, but the sparkles themselves are greenish in color. This is especially visible later in the scene, when they travel further down Cloud’s arm, they even get this ‘golden-green’ tint then. Looks like Lifestream to me (and if it’s not, why would they make it look so similar?).
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Do you know how easy it would have been to just leave those couple of screens of Aerith out of "Calling"? It would have been pretty easy to just show Cloud riding down the road and decide for yourself where he is going. However, the creators wanted to show him going out to meet Aerith.

All true. But while “Calling” may or may not suggest they are able to meet somehow, I don’t think it’s the central theme of the scene. The main purpose of “Calling” seems to be displaying of Cloud’s healing, him being finally free from guilt... and the fact that Aerith is still important to him, still has a very special place in his world. I think this is the basic message we all agree to, as it’s not really dependant on our take on the nature of their supposed meetings. So removing her from the scene would change this message way too much in regard to Cloud’s feelings for her, and SE didn’t want to leave them ‘up to interpretation’ for some reason... :whistle:
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I was thinking: What if Aerith was a memory of Cloud's?

Well, I don’t think we can dismiss her presence just as some sort of ‘memory taken form’ thing (she could talk to children in the church, to say the least), but I understand your example. The mechanics of getting out of depression are similar in both cases.
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We are free to think if he meets her in spirit, in his head or meet her physically. I think all of them have reasons to exist. The result is the same: Cloud goes to Aerith. No matter how can they communicate (...). They, I mean Cloud and Aerith, can communicate like normal people or they can't do it. But still, what is most important, that he doesn't forget her, keeps those flowers and photos so they can be with him all the time.

Very well said, Lynx. Everyone stated their opinions on the subject, but in the end, those are just opinions, and I really think we stretched the little data we have to the limit – unless SE comes up with some clarification, that’s the best we can hope for. I don’t think we can ever agree on the exact nature of their ‘relationship’ after AC, or what exactly happens at the flowerfields, or if he would ever be able to contact her again. We have no way of knowing how often does he visit those flowerfields and how much time he spends there. All we know is that he’s finally healed, free from guilt, free to live his life, and that she’s still important to him, not merely a memory to be forgotten over time. He already received forgiveness from her, he doesn’t really need anything from her anymore – but still he chooses to remember her, seek her out, go to places where he feels close to her. She still is a part of his life.
From this perspective, the exact nature of this closeness doesn’t seem that important at all.

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So the lurker has spoken. Why don't you just join?

Time constrains... :( Lame excuse, I know, but I’m not exactly a mass-poster as it is, and I’d rather remain a solid member here then post here-and-there once every week... and once my work takes up speed, I may become a rare guest even here. Just the way things are...
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Shiva
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For starters, Dyne... was long dead too, so it’s not much of a problem.
And yet Aerith touched him, didn't she? She touched him in the most physical sense a spirit can touch another. I believe she truly had to touch Cloud in order to cleanse his spirit (in a physical sense) and comfort him. I don't think a touch in a vision would really have done much to comfort him or heal him, but that is just my opinion.

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As I see it, she could touch him BECAUSE it was a vision; it couldn’t happen in the real world.
And yet she touched him, boosted him into battle in the Bahamut scene, didn't she? :D

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As for him being physically thrown into the ‘white world’... well, perhaps it could happen. I don’t think even Aerith has that kind of power, not to mention it’s not really necessary at the moment, but I have no way of proving this. So, he’s taken from Fenrir and somehow drawn into this world, stumbles (though... wouldn’t suddenly removing him from Fenrir end in the bike crashing due to balance issues?) and after few seconds is placed back where he was, without loosing control over the machine. Looks complicated...
...though you probably could say that the time flow on the ‘white’ flowerfield is different than it is in the physical world, so he was gone and back in the blink of an eye...
That is exactly what I was thinking, actually. :P Time and space are not on the same playing field when Cloud is with Aerith. I don't think applying reality to Final Fantasy is something any of us should be doing here. The fact that Cloud appeared to be physically affected by his encounter with Aerith is proof enough for me that it could have physically happened. You guys can believe what you want. -_-

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Uh, If he was truly in the same pose, he’d end up standing on top of the Fenrir... ouch. That’d hurt. So, instead of believing Aerith carefully placed him in the required position (possible, but...), I’d rather assume he never really left the bike. In the physical world, he just sort of... spaced out for a few seconds (while driving through the woods... still bad timing, if you ask me). And as for him looking over his shoulder – we saw that Aerith’s words startled him and made him try to face her for the first time; the dream comparison is once again dead on, it’s not unusual for the sleeping person to mimic some movements made in a dream (especially the more sudden ones).
Once again, this is pretty persnickety involving details of reality in a fantasy game. As I said, time and space seem to move much more differently around Aerith. It is still possible that he was with her in person (although he could have just been there in spirit, as well). I just don't want anyone discounting someone's idea of him being there physically. It is just as possible as him being there spiritually with just enough evidence to back it up as other ideas.

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This may seem as if I’m picking at straws to make my point, but it’s just my way of interpretation of some of the more mysterious stuff; as this is Final Fantasy AND Aerith we’re talking about, it cannot be said with certainty what would and what would not be possible.
My thoughts exactly. :P

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It’s just that I usually prefer the simplest working explanation, the one that requires the least assumptions and smallest involvement of supernatural powers.
I don't know... Aerith used a lot of those "supernatural powers" in AC, so I certainly wouldn't discount them. :lol:

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Well, I looked at this scene a few times before replying. The white background (the same whiteness that was seen over the ‘white’ flowerfield, the whiteness that removes blue glow of Bahamut’s flare and into which Aerith disappears at the ending) is a little confusing, but the sparkles themselves are greenish in color. This is especially visible later in the scene, when they travel further down Cloud’s arm, they even get this ‘golden-green’ tint then. Looks like Lifestream to me (and if it’s not, why would they make it look so similar?).
I haven't scrutinized this scene enough to know. -_- But, does it honestly matter? Aerith appears from the Lifestream and then disappears back into it. So? The fact is that she did take his hand in a most physical sense.

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All true. But while “Calling” may or may not suggest they are able to meet somehow, I don’t think it’s the central theme of  the scene. The main purpose of “Calling” seems to be displaying of Cloud’s healing, him being finally free from guilt... and the fact that Aerith is still important to him, still has a very special place in his world.
I agree with what you say in that it shows Cloud's healing and being free from guilt, but I also believe the creators wanted us to know that Cloud was able to "meet" Aerith again in the flower field. Why show him driving off into the flower field if they didn't?
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