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What Made Cloud Stronger?; Reference to Sephiroth's line
Topic Started: Mar 15 2006, 03:16 AM (1,103 Views)
Materia Thief
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yet again, today I loved you
yin-chan
Mar 17 2006, 07:33 PM
Urrgghhh *drags in other older members to discuss* Whisper's too hard for me to tackle alone! :lmao:

Bloodbath, WHO ARE YOU??!??! :lol: You're a Cetra, so I must know you, and your sig and quote seem awfully familiar, but who were you before Bloodbath!?! You can't possibly be MT or Hyper, right?? *tries to remember all Crows members* :lol:

*gets dragged in* XD

And nope, she's not me. ;)

Bloodbath is, if I remember her former name correctly, ~Hopeful_Angel~?

However, I'd like to join this discussion! Please forgive me if I accidentally restate previously made points or if I state incorrect facts, my mind is forgetful in its young age. XD

Whisper
 
...and assuming his guilt was stopping HIM, why didn’t SHE contact him sooner? We know he had this guilt problem all along, that he visited Forgotten Capital before... and that she never really blamed him for what happened. So, why didn’t she appear sooner? If his guilt was somehow stopping her too, what change made the meeting possible?


I'm not entirely sure if I'm remembering the novella correctly, however, my idea on this is such.

I don't think the issue at hand is, "Why didn't Aeris contact him sooner?". I believe it's, "Why did Aeris contact him at all?" Yes, I do think they're meant to be, however, I always saw the world of FFVII as more realistic than most. Aeris has died, yes, Cloud visits her grave, but people move on. Not necessarily to love other people, no, but to just keep on living and surviving. The issue with Cloud was that he couldn't move on. He was so bogged down with his guilt and want to atone for his "sins" that he could not survive in that continual state. So, the obvious answer, to me at least, is that she returned and appeared to him so she could forgive him and he could move on.

However, why didn't she appear to him immediately to say that "all is alright, etc. etc."? My thoughts on this are, once again, mostly based in realism. Cloud, in my opinion, did make an honest attempt to move on. As he says in the novella, it's a "new life" and "I'm going to survive. I think that's the only way I can be forgiven. Lots of things... happened." Cloud tries to start on his 'new life' by helping rebuild Midgar and re-establish Tifa's bar, however, in a way, this was instead his reconstructing and still focusing on the past, considering both Midgar and Seventh Heaven were central to his past. As Cloud says himself, while visiting Nibelheim, he "shouldn't have come" and that it "draws [you] back into the past". Tifa identifies the lack of nolstalgia for the place that both felt. Cloud tries to escape his past, but ultimately keeps coming back to it.

I also think that Cloud wasn't entirely sure of exactly what he sought forgiveness for. Cloud's an intelligent young man, he's not a complete emotional wreck, and he can tell that his past is what's haunting him the most. However, this was not enough and the delivery for Elmyra, I believe at least, made him realize that Aeris was the issue of guilt he had to deal with most. Cloud's downward spiral begins as he splits apart the "family", moving to Aeris' Church (a touching, although I think, ultimately unwise decision, as he is constantly reminded of his guilt by residing there). I think, at this time, Cloud begins seeking direct forgiveness, believing that he needed to hear the words from Aeris herself to finally forgive himself. I believe around this time Advent Children begins.

Notice that he does not visit Aeris' grave between the time he made the delivery and figures out that he needs to hear it from Aeris to the time that Advent Children starts. The next time he's near Aeris' grave? His trip to save Marlene and Denzel and all the orphans. I also like to think as he sped towards her final resting spot his mind drifted to her and that's, plus his proximity to her final resting spot, was what was able to trigger his finally seeing her, so he could ask her for forgiveness.

However, that's all just supposition. Feel free to tear my ideas mercilessly apart. XD

And my brain hurts a tad too much to touch on the other issues yet, perhaps in a later post. :dizzy:
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yin-chan
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*dreamchaser*
Materia Thief
 
Bloodbath is, if I remember her former name correctly, ~Hopeful_Angel~?


:o :o BUT OF COURSE. *boings self on head* Maaan, I'm so sorry for not recognizing you, Bloodbath!! H_A, of course!! Silly me.
Thanks for clearing that up, MT! :glomp2:

MT
 
However, I'd like to join this discussion! Please forgive me if I accidentally restate previously made points or if I state incorrect facts, my mind is forgetful in its young age. XD


YAY!! *showers lurve on MT WITHSUCHFORCE* :wub: I won't have to squeeze my brains so hard thinking of theories anymore. :lol: MT = LOVE. :wub:

MT
 
I believe at least, made him realize that Aeris was the issue of guilt he had to deal with most. Cloud's downward spiral begins as he splits apart the "family", moving to Aeris' Church (a touching, although I think, ultimately unwise decision, as he is constantly reminded of his guilt by residing there).


Whoa...your theory is very good.... but I don't really agree with Cloud feeling even more guilty in the church. In CoT, he refers to the church as 'my place'. Would call a place your own if staying there made you unhappy? I do think there are good memories tied to Aerith in that church, and the reason why Cloud chose to live there is because - apart from Seventh Heaven - he had nowhere else to go, but he could've stayed at some inn or crash Barret or something - but no, he chose, above all other places to go to the church. Somehow I think the church makes him feel more peaceful and he's happier there somehow. Why would he want to live in a place where he is tormented by guilt 24/7? If the church is that kind of place, I don't see why he would want to live there. Another theory is that - Aerith's presence can be felt in the church, as shown in AC after Tifa's fight - so I'm sure Cloud must've felt her presence there somewhat, and wanted to be close to her. Or, even if he didn't, I doubt Aerith - who's presence is probably strongest in the church - would allow her church to become some sort of Guilt Torture Chamber for Cloud. :unsure:

Cloud also doesn't let Tifa go to the church with him in CoT - I take this to mean the church is an important place to him somewhat, his own sanctuary, for lack of better word. Nothing bad ever happened to him and Aerith in the church, so I really don't see any reason for it to provide him with any extra guilt he already has. :unsure:

BUT all IMO, of course. :sweat: I guess it's all just speculation. Auuuggghhh SE, why do you have to make things so complicated!! :lol:

Aaaggghhh so much to read. I'll think about the rest later too. :sweat:
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Materia Thief
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yet again, today I loved you
yin-chan
Mar 17 2006, 09:46 PM
MT
 
However, I'd like to join this discussion! Please forgive me if I accidentally restate previously made points or if I state incorrect facts, my mind is forgetful in its young age. XD


YAY!! *showers lurve on MT WITHSUCHFORCE* :wub: I won't have to squeeze my brains so hard thinking of theories anymore. :lol: MT = LOVE. :wub:

Hehe, thank you ^_^!

yin-chan
 

MT
 
I believe at least, made him realize that Aeris was the issue of guilt he had to deal with most. Cloud's downward spiral begins as he splits apart the "family", moving to Aeris' Church (a touching, although I think, ultimately unwise decision, as he is constantly reminded of his guilt by residing there).


Whoa...your theory is very good.... but I don't really agree with Cloud feeling even more guilty in the church. In CoT, he refers to the church as 'my place'. Would call a place your own if staying there made you unhappy? I do think there are good memories tied to Aerith in that church, and the reason why Cloud chose to live there is because - apart from Seventh Heaven - he had nowhere else to go, but he could've stayed at some inn or crash Barret or something - but no, he chose, above all other places to go to the church. Somehow I think the church makes him feel more peaceful and he's happier there somehow. Why would he want to live in a place where he is tormented by guilt 24/7? If the church is that kind of place, I don't see why he would want to live there. Another theory is that - Aerith's presence can be felt in the church, as shown in AC after Tifa's fight - so I'm sure Cloud must've felt her presence there somewhat, and wanted to be close to her. Or, even if he didn't, I doubt Aerith - who's presence is probably strongest in the church - would allow her church to become some sort of Guilt Torture Chamber for Cloud. :unsure:

Cloud also doesn't let Tifa go to the church with him in CoT - I take this to mean the church is an important place to him somewhat, his own sanctuary, for lack of better word. Nothing bad ever happened to him and Aerith in the church, so I really don't see any reason for it to provide him with any extra guilt he already has. :unsure:

BUT all IMO, of course. :sweat: I guess it's all just speculation. Auuuggghhh SE, why do you have to make things so complicated!! :lol:

Aaaggghhh so much to read. I'll think about the rest later too. :sweat:


Ahhh, no that's not what I meant! :sweat: Perhaps I should take this moment to refine my statement a little.

No, I don't think the church is a torture chamber for Cloud, not at all! :lol: I also agree with your thoughts of it being a sanctuary, however I also think that sanctuaries have their limitations (after all, if it was such a powerful sanctuary, how could Marlene be taken and Tifa beaten up there?). Yes, it does hold good memories for Cloud of his relationship with Aeris, but it holds memories which could have a negative impact on him as well. I'd like to point out that he made his "pledge," for lack of a better word, to be her bodyguard here and while it is intermingled with the positive memory of his meeting her, it's a consistent reminder of his failure to protect her, which I think is the base root of his guilt.

The Church is by no means a "torture chamber of Guilt and Angst" for Cloud, but being so constantly around a place so mired in his history and memories of the one person he wants forgiveness from the most could do nothing to help Cloud in moving forward and on with his life.

I doubt that made any sense, I apologize yin-chan. XD
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Skelly
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a strange angel
Awww... I'm forgotten... :cry: I had an abrupt username-change anyway, so it's okay. ::pats poor Yin-chan on the head:: :sweat: At least... you recognize me afterwards!

Ya know, I don't feel bad at all about the three of us teaming up against Whisper... she might be able to take us all down! :lmao: You should really join the Northern Crater debate! :pro:

yin-chan
 
Almost as if he immediately knew where he was and who he was meeting, but if he hadn't experienced it before, how would he know?  :unsure:

I'm guessing... intuition. Like how you can sense someone approaching just by their footsteps or the perfume they wear. Or just the kind of "aura" they have, like how Aerith makes people smile or her bubbliness. He's human as well, and being Mako-enhanced (well... you can say it like that, can't you?) why can't he just feel her presence there in the whiteness?

MT, your theory's good too. Adding on (uh... right? Being young has... its sideffects... XD) I'd like to say that the reason Aerith probably didn't contact him earlier was because of his guilt. Note that at the times she did contact him, he was either close to her or he didn't feel all that guilty anymore?

(e.g: the dream in FF7, the hand reach scene, the flowerfield scene, etc)

And as to why she was only able to contact him then... I'm guessing that it was also the perfect time to strengthen Cloud spiritually, before the fight with the SHM and the real battles. If Cloud was weak spiritually before those battles, he would've probably died, and who would protect the children then?

I don't think all of the questions were answered... >_< Anyway... does anyone else think we're going a teensy bit off topic? :lol:
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Whisper
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Careful everyone, this one turned out MASSIVE...

Quote:
 
The Church is by no means a "torture chamber of Guilt and Angst" for Cloud, but being so constantly around a place so mired in his history and memories of the one person he wants forgiveness from the most could do nothing to help Cloud in moving forward and on with his life.
I doubt that made any sense (...)

Ah, it made a lot of sense. :) I very much agree with your interpretation of Cloud’s guilt issue, as well as his reasons for moving into the church. I think that both you and yin – chan got this one right: the place held important memories for him, and probably he could sense her presence there somehow, or at least feel he’s closer to her there. In his troubled state that’s where he wanted to be. But at the same time, staying there made him relive those memories day by day, and feeling her presence (real or just imagined) was probably both comforting and guilt – inducing at the same time. So it was neither a ‘sanctuary’ nor a ‘torture chamber’, but a little bit of both. Sounds complicated, but it’s actually very realistic in terms of psychology.

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I don't think the issue at hand is, "Why didn't Aeris contact him sooner?". I believe it's, "Why did Aeris contact him at all?" (...) So, the obvious answer, to me at least, is that she returned and appeared to him so she could forgive him and he could move on. (...)
I also think that Cloud wasn't entirely sure of exactly what he sought forgiveness for. (...) I think, at this time, Cloud begins seeking direct forgiveness, believing that he needed to hear the words from Aeris herself to finally forgive himself. (...)
I also like to think as he sped towards her final resting spot his mind drifted to her and that's, plus his proximity to her final resting spot, was what was able to trigger his finally seeing her, so he could ask her for forgiveness.
However, that's all just supposition. Feel free to tear my ideas mercilessly apart. XD

No, I don’t think I’ll be tearing your ideas apart here :). Actually I think this is a very good theory, and one I like even more as it’s based on psychology rather than supernatural. We agreed before that Cloud was actively seeking her at the time of AC, and we all assumed that was – more or less – the case from the beginning, but when you think about it, it doesn’t make that much sense. It’s very likely he needed time to realize what is weighting him down like this, and that his coming to live in Aerith’s church was the result of a process rather then a single decision. So she appeared to him when HE realized it’s her he needs to ask for forgiveness, but it’s not like he spend two years trying to contact her without success.
Great stuff!

Now, the flowerfields...
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But why not? It's all purely speculation from Calling onwards, but if you observe Cloud's desk after the song - there is a flower - presumably from the flowerfield Aerith was in as we are not shown any other flowerfield in Calling - freshly picked and put on the desk. There are photos of that same flowerfield strewn all over the table and on the walls. Clorith once pointed out Cloud returns to the flowerfield repeatedly, to take the photos, to pick the flowers. Why would he keep visiting the flowerfield if Aerith was not there??

Ah, but I don’t think the flowerfield on the photos and the flowerfield in “Calling” are one and the same... more on this later.
It’s fairly obvious he visits the flowerfields from time to time. Aerith’s connection to flowers is well established, so it seems natural that would be the place he would come to if he wanted to remember her or feel closer to her. Where else could he go? Forgotten Capital? But it’s far away, and it holds extremely painful memories. The church? That’s where he came seeking forgiveness, but again, he was forgiven, the church is just a place of memories now, and he knows she’s more than a memory. So what better place to go than one she’d probably like a lot? I saw this as a sign of his changing perspective and healing of his wounds; he doesn’t have to seek her out among memories of the past anymore, he KNOWS she’s always with him, whether he’s speeding around on Fenrir (we all know how happy she was about seeing the world outside Midgar) or wading through flowers so alike the ones she used to grow. He’s healed, he’s at peace, and honestly, for him to take photos of flowers or stop to pick some up is an enormous change, one I like to see as a result of her continued presence.

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The hand-reach scene, the flowerfield scene - if she was in that flowerfield, why would she not be able to touch him then?

This is more of a side note, but sometimes I wonder if people are not reading too much into the hand reach scene (Bahamut one, not ending FMV). He took hold of her hand, which was immediately surrounded by glowing lifestream particles (assuming that’s what they are). I’m not sure her touch was as solid as that of Avalanche members, somehow it felt a... different kind of touch. I’m not sure if that’s enough basis to think he can touch her as if she still possessed physical body (but obviously I have no evidence to back this with...).

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Nomura says Calling ends Cloud's story, and Calling ends with Cloud riding out into the flowerfield. That says more than enough to me.

Cloud’s story. That’s one of the reasons I tend to believe the symbolism of “Calling” goes further then Cleris interpretation of it. Come to think of it, it’s a VERY different landscape. It’s RL landscape, not an animated one, full of life, sunlight, vibrant colors (not seen anywhere during the actual movie), and has a distinct feeling of... freedom? I like to call it "Cloud’s inner landscape”, believing it portrays his changed perspective on life. It’s obvious Aerith is there, and always will be, and AC suggests that Cloud’s realization of her presence made this landscape possible (am I making sense yet?). But I find it hard to believe this is a real place he can go to spend some quality time with her.

Why? Truth be told, I find the “flowerfield theory” sweet, romantic and adorable for many reasons. The idea of Cloud looking for her all around the world and eventually finding her somewhere is beautiful, and I would gladly allow myself to be converted to believe it, but sadly, is seems difficult to fit into FFVII world. First thing is, it seems to contradict things we know about afterlife in that world. We know (from Aerith herself) that the dead can prevent being absorbed into lifestream for some time, and they can go and visit their loved ones if they wish so. We know (from MOtP and AC) that Aerith never truly left, that she kept watching over Cloud and Avalanche through their battles and years afterwards (Tifa realized this on the “Shera” in AC). So, in a way she was with Cloud all this time. This doesn’t really leave much place for her to be physically in another place, and honestly, how could that happen? She didn’t just leave, she died. She cannot be found anywhere in this world, no matter how long the search, no matter how far one would go... and Cloud seems to understand this, thus, when trying to contact her, he moves into the church, not rides out looking for her in the wide world.

Of course, one could say situation changed after AC, but did it really, for Aerith? She can linger as she did before, she can possibly ‘join the Planet’, but... go to the flowerfield and wait for him there? How? And why the flowerfield, of all places? And if she did appear there, why should she be forever bound to this one place? Interesting thing is that, in the game and MOtP, we are told that ‘spirits’ can hang around people that were dear to them, but I’m not sure if there was any mention of those ‘spirits’ being bound to places, unlike ‘ghosts’ of our world (unless you count Lucretia and her cave, but that was Jenova’s doing, and Lucretia couldn’t truly die, so it seems a different thing). Aerith seems to fit into this rule; her focus is not a place but person, and her being close to Cloud and watching over him agrees very well with what’s known about the afterlife in FFVII world. Of course, I know Aerith is a Cetra, she’s special, but I don’t think she’s THAT special. In a way, her continued existence and her ability to contact Cloud (who’s not a Cetra and thus cannot normally communicate with the dead) already make her an exception.

In short, the bond they share is still a ‘love beyond death’ thing; she came to his aid, and may come again if the need arises, but some barriers cannot be crossed, and no matter how strong their feelings, some things will remain impossible for them. And still, IMO this permanent spiritual connection they share speaks of deeper and more intimate closeness then occasional meeting ever could.

Ohhh... I can’t believe how long I was typing all this. This is what happens if my writing gets stalled and I have too much time on my hands... My head hurts... but great discussion, everyone!

Oh, BTW...
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have you ever considered joining The Northern Crater, Whisper? You're so good at debating, I think you'd make a nice addition there to the LT debates between Cleris and Cloti!

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You should really join the Northern Crater debate!

Thank you for thinking so highly of my debating skills :blush: . I lurk at the NC sometimes (love the ‘image wars’ thread there... so many great fanarts!), but I get the feeling that actual debate ended in stalemate. Plus... the Clotis there already are a minority (I’ve seen them call for reinforcements in Faith, no one there seemed willing to help them...). But should things get lively again for some reason, I’ll probably poke my nose there.
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Lynx
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~handle with care~
Whisper, you've brought out nice ideas in yout quite lo-o-ong post.
But I just want to... add something maybe. So:

Quote:
 
...Come to think of it, it’s a VERY different landscape. It’s RL landscape, not an animated one, full of life, sunlight, vibrant colors (not seen anywhere during the actual movie), and has a distinct feeling of... freedom? I like to call it "Cloud’s inner landscape”, believing it portrays his changed perspective on life. It’s obvious Aerith is there, and always will be, and AC suggests that Cloud’s realization of her presence made this landscape possible (am I making sense yet?). But I find it hard to believe this is a real place he can go to spend some quality time with her.

I agree with you that all these landscapes are much more lifelike, brighter and sunny 'cause Cloud's burden became lighter (I don't want to say it totally disappeared because I don't believe such heavy thoughts can leave someone at once) and it's Aerith's service as far as I believe.
It's not just his longing to meet her. Also it's his feeling of freedom,
long-awaited freedom. He couldn't drive around the world without receiving some painful memories. But now he is able to enjoy the landscapes around him and all.

Quote:
 
...The idea of Cloud looking for her all around the world and eventually finding her somewhere is beautiful, and I would gladly allow myself to be converted to believe it, but sadly, is seems difficult to fit into FFVII world. First thing is, it seems to contradict things we know about afterlife in that world. We know (from Aerith herself) that the dead can prevent being absorbed into lifestream for some time, and they can go and visit their loved ones if they wish so. We know (from MOtP and AC) that Aerith never truly left, that she kept watching over Cloud and Avalanche through their battles and years afterwards (Tifa realized this on the “Shera” in AC). So, in a way she was with Cloud all this time. This doesn’t really leave much place for her to be physically in another place, and honestly, how could that happen? She didn’t just leave, she died. She cannot be found anywhere in this world, no matter how long the search, no matter how far one would go... and Cloud seems to understand this, thus, when trying to contact her, he moves into the church, not rides out looking for her in the wide world.

I don't think I'm completely agree with you in this question, but don't be angry. But as for me, Aerith -can- (I don't say she -is-) be an exception of this kinda rule. After all, she was able to save the planet at the end of the game, she was able to touch Cloud in the flowerfield scene, she gave him the strength to defeat Bahamut, she was even able to use her limit break while being dead! I understand that it looks kinda strange that she can to meet him (or he can to meet her) even if she is... we all know that. But I want to believe she can recieve this opportunity in reward for sacrificing her own life to save the world. And she is not shown watching him all the time. She is shown suddenly feeling him coming. Looks like I'm a romantic :unsure:

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She can linger as she did before, she can possibly ‘join the Planet’, but... go to the flowerfield and wait for him there? How? And why the flowerfield, of all places? And if she did appear there, why should she be forever bound to this one place? Interesting thing is that, in the game and MOtP, we are told that ‘spirits’ can hang around people that were dear to them, but I’m not sure if there was any mention of those ‘spirits’ being bound to places, unlike ‘ghosts’ of our world (unless you count Lucretia and her cave, but that was Jenova’s doing, and Lucretia couldn’t truly die, so it seems a different thing). Aerith seems to fit into this rule; her focus is not a place but person, and her being close to Cloud and watching over him agrees very well with what’s known about the afterlife in FFVII world. Of course, I know Aerith is a Cetra, she’s special, but I don’t think she’s THAT special. In a way, her continued existence and her ability to contact Cloud (who’s not a Cetra and thus cannot normally communicate with the dead) already make her an exception.

Deep inside my mind I understand you and I know your post makes a -lot- of sense but somehow I manage to stay at my stubborn Clorith\Cleris mind :P . I think the reason they are able to communicate is that they share a strong feeling (I think it was stated in MotP, that this feeling keeps her 'the whole' but I'm not sure I can appeal to it). As for me SE wanted to show that if people share strong connections even death can't hold them apart. I know it's sad, but this is what people are said when someone close to them dies :cry: . These people are always in the hearts of those who are dear to them. But as far as this is the game/movie called "Final !Fantasy!" they (SE) can show something that is contrary to our real life.

I don't know if I sound silly or painfuly stubborn <_< but that is what I think.

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yin-chan
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OH MY GOD WHISPER. :lmao: :lmao:

Don't do this to me!! I can't think of a single word to say now! :lmao:

Uhh.....I have to think about that. Somehow your flowerfield theory makes a whole lotta sense - but in another aspect, something in my mind stubbornly plants its feet in the possibility that Cloud is able to meet Aerith there.

AH GOD. I'll have to go mash my brains to pulp now. Will come back and edit this post later if I can come up with any good thoughts!!! :lmao:

*gives Whisper +50 awesome points* :lol:

Edit :

Whisper
 
It’s fairly obvious he visits the flowerfields from time to time. Aerith’s connection to flowers is well established, so it seems natural that would be the place he would come to if he wanted to remember her or feel closer to her.


But it still doesn't answer the question - why was Aerith shown in that flowerfield, if it's not possible that Cloud is able to meet her?? If they wanted to show just her presence, or the way Cloud knows she's always with him like you say - why not just show her smiling down from the sky over mountains or something similar?
Why show her standing - as if waiting - and lifting her head when he approaches. Why show her there, large as life, real as day - in that flowerfield, if not for the possible assumption of viewers that Cloud will be able to meet her there, as long as he goes to that flowerfield, which he does?

I don't think such a concept is too OOC for Final Fantasy - I mean, the strong theme of love has always been poignant in all the Final Fantasies. In FF8, we have Squall dead then coming back to life - in FF9 we have Zidane returning to Dagger after years of absence, in FFX we have Tidus 'fading' and yet he is able to return in FFX-2. Why should the rules bend for Cloud and Aerith - which in this case - Aerith does not return to life. It's not too extreme to have Cloud able to reunite with her, after all, he is shown to be searching for her in many other spin-off games, a coverage which no other FF couple has. Cloud is certainly one of SE's most popular characters, and I don't think it's too extreme for SE to end his story by enabling him to reunite with the girl he's been searching for so long. :unsure:

Yes...that's the best I can come up with for now, even after mulling it over in my head for the entire day. :lol:

MT
 
No, I don't think the church is a torture chamber for Cloud, not at all! laugh.gif I also agree with your thoughts of it being a sanctuary, however I also think that sanctuaries have their limitations (after all, if it was such a powerful sanctuary, how could Marlene be taken and Tifa beaten up there?). Yes, it does hold good memories for Cloud of his relationship with Aeris, but it holds memories which could have a negative impact on him as well. I'd like to point out that he made his "pledge," for lack of a better word, to be her bodyguard here and while it is intermingled with the positive memory of his meeting her, it's a consistent reminder of his failure to protect her, which I think is the base root of his guilt.


Ah, I see!!! I'm so sorry, forgive me for my silly misunderstanding. Dang, and I typed such a long reply to you too!! :lmao:

Your idea makes much sense - in a realistic psychological way *copies words out of whisper's mouth* and I have to agree. It probably does impose on Cloud's guilt fairly enough, as we also see the wolf in the church in AC - but at the same time it brings him peace. My biased mind of course likes to think it bings more peace than pain! :lol: Some inner turmoil, eh, Cloud?

Bloodbath
 
Anyway... does anyone else think we're going a teensy bit off topic?

*looks at topic title* Indeed!! :lmao: Good grief, we all just got so carried away. Erhh..... are we breaking rules or something? *frantically pokes around for any lurking mods* ^_^
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Skelly
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a strange angel
...my head hurts. :lol: I'm clearly not made out for any of this... tough debating stuff. Methinks my short attention span is getting out of hand. I think I might faint after reading all of those long posts! There must be a few hundred words in there at least. ::pokes with a ten-foot pole:: But yes, very good discussion!

Even... if it's off-topic. :lmao: We should create a different thread for this!

::lets Lynx and Yin-chan tackle Whisper while she ponders:: I'll come back tomorrow probably to actually say something! Practice is tomorrow, and I'm distracted wondering if I should pack anything. ^_^


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Sadhana
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capitalism is dead
May I intervene? :luv: I rather like debating.

First, my thoughts on this topic. I agree with Whisper in that "Calling" is about more than Cloud and Aerith. Cloud feels free of his burden now. He's free to roam the world on his Fenrir with a little less than a smile on his face. His painful memories aren't holding him back anymore because he knows that those he lost are still with him, and his comrads are still behind him. Most importantly, Aerith is with him. Whether or not he can see her, the events of AC and the way she was always healing his pain made Cloud aware that she was with him all along. "Calling" symbolizes Cloud being free from his guilt, but it also symbolizes Aerith always being with Cloud. That's why we see Aerith in the flowerfield he rides to. Where ever he may be, she'll be there too. And his memories of her will always be dear to him. Hence, the flowers and pictures on his desk in the end. Mementos of Aerith through the whole flowerfield connection. She's still dear to him, and she will continue to be with him after death. I don't know if that made sense, but I tried.

Whisper
 
She didn’t just leave, she died. She cannot be found anywhere in this world, no matter how long the search, no matter how far one would go... and Cloud seems to understand this, thus, when trying to contact her, he moves into the church, not rides out looking for her in the wide world.


I also don't think that Cloud can be "physically" with her. She doesn't have a body. But I think that he does have a sort of way to meet her psychically. When Cloud is riding to the Forgotten Capital, he gets drawn into this flowerfield where Aerith is. He's not ACTUALLY, PHYSICALLY there because he's still on his Fenrir. Pardon my cheesiness, but I think that scene is a result of their spirits communicating with each other. Cloud realized that he wanted forgiveness as he approached the place where she died, so his soul sought her out. And they found each other in a mental flowerfield of the flowers Aerith grew in her church. But they still can be with each other. Just not in a physical way.

The ending flowerfield and Cloud riding off to it, IMO, is a result of Cloud being reminded that she's always with him and of the place where they can meet. Where they can, in a small way, be "together."

This all me being far too Cleris biased :D .
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Lynn
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Lynn has no Lloud smut ;-;
Aaah, how did I miss this thread?! :hyper: Naughty yin-chan, keeping the newbies to yourself quietly here!

Okay, gonna slowly read through everything before replying, but here's something that occurred to me today (might be old by now, though, so feel free to toss it aside in favour of current topic):

yin-chan
 
If you suddenly got flung into a white world where you see your dead friend, wouldn't you be a little more surprised? Perhaps an exclamation of astonishment, or wide-eyed gaping in breathless wonder? But Cloud looked perfectly calm, almost like he was accustomed to being drawn into Aerith's world on a daily basis.

Touching on the surprise aspect of it-- or the lack of it on Cloud's part, which is touted as a reason why he might've met Aerith before the flowerfield meeting at the Forgotten City. Does anyone remember the movie, Spiderman 2?

In the movie, Peter Parker is facing difficulty living his daily life with his alternate life as Spiderman. Eventually, he decides to toss aside the Spidey costume in favour of having a normal life-- in effect, he's also choosing not to follow through with his Uncle Ben's advice on power and responsibility. In one scene, while Peter is musing on whether to turn in his costume for good, he gets a scene with long-dead Uncle Ben that I found remarkably similar to Cloud's flowerfield scene with Aerith (except Aerith is female and much younger).

I think comparing them is the best way to illustrate how I viewed the scene between Aerith and Cloud in AC.

Uncle Ben is clearly dead (with no Cetra powers to cast any doubt over his deadness), yet Peter is still having a conversation with him in his car-- against a background of white, no less! There's clearly no supernatural force at work here, at least compared to Aerith whose Cetra heritage may give us reason to think something involving that is coming into play.

I interpreted this scene as Peter speaking with the spirit of Uncle Ben that remained inside him, which is also how I interpret the flowerfield scene as Cloud speaking to Aerith's spirit that continues to reside within him. (Coincidentally, it lines up with certain comments in The Making of AC that said something akin to "Aerith" not being there, but her spirit that lingers behind after her death.)

It wasn't a flashback so much as a... peek?... into the head of Peter and Cloud. Peter wasn't surprised to see Uncle Ben in the car, just as Cloud wasn't surprised to see Aerith in the flowerfield (using the word "see" loosely in the latter scenario). Both scenes even ended similarly: as Uncle Ben reaches out and asks Peter to take his hand, Peter refuses and we return to reality where Peter is holding his hand up. This is just like when Cloud in the flowerfield turns to see Aerith, and the action is mimiced in real life when he looks over his shoulder on Fenrir.

yin-chan
 
Urgh, I can't find it.  It seems to have dissapeared, yet I distinctly remember a topic on that!! Oh well, if anyone can find it, do share the link!

Haha, I remember the thread you're referring to too. I'll try looking it up too, since I remember posting my interpretation of the scene there. :lol:

[EDIT]
Whisper
 
This is more of a side note, but sometimes I wonder if people are not reading too much into the hand reach scene (Bahamut one, not ending FMV). He took hold of her hand, which was immediately surrounded by glowing lifestream particles (assuming that’s what they are). I’m not sure her touch was as solid as that of Avalanche members, somehow it felt a... different kind of touch. I’m not sure if that’s enough basis to think he can touch her as if she still possessed physical body (but obviously I have no evidence to back this with...).

I agree, I do not believe it was something purely physical either. The scene where he grasps Aerith's hand had a distinctly different feel to it-- I see it as, if only for a moment amidst all the madness and the fight, we are taken into Cloud's soul once more, just as we were taken in when he was riding towards the Forgotten Capital. The scene where Cloud reaches out for Aerith appears to me as a visual representation of Cloud drawing strength from her, in that moment when he was about to crumble under Bahamut's flare.

(If we want to be very finicky about it, we could examine the position of Cloud's hands before and after the hand-reach scene. :lol: *geeks out*)

My main reason for my belief that both meetings with Aerith are on a spiritual, ethereal level-- because of the reaction on Cloud's face when he finally sees Aerith at the end of AC. That, there, is the shock we questioned being missing when he met her in the flowerfield. His eyes widen, his mouth even goes agape a bit. If Cloud has met Aerith before, if it was really "Aerith" who physically pulled Cloud up in the flame, and if it was "Aerith" who physically touched him at the flowerfield, why the shock at the end?

The end of AC struck me as the first time in two years, since her death, that Cloud has seen Aerith. I believe it's part of what made it so special.

yin-chan
 
Good grief, we all just got so carried away. Erhh..... are we breaking rules or something? *frantically pokes around for any lurking mods*

*mutters sleepily* You found one. :yawn:

But I'm loving all the discussion so far, so I shall magnanimously not warn your collective little Cleris hides off. :winner: Besides, it's normal for discussions to take different turns, and this one definitely took an interesting one!
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Whisper
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Wow, so many replies... and some great points in them, too. Perhaps I got a little carried away with yesterday’s post, but I wanted to make my reasons clear, knowing that the “flowerfield theory” is likely to be popular here, and having seen some rather weird arguments brought against it by some (mainly Cloti) people.

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I don't think I'm completely agree with you in this question, but don't be angry. But as for me, Aerith -can- (I don't say she -is-) be an exception of this kinda rule.(...)  But I want to believe she can recieve this opportunity in reward for sacrificing her own life to save the world.

First of all, how could I get angry just because you disagree with my opinion about a very ‘up-to-interpretation’ part of the movie?:lmao: It’s not like we’re in some vicious LT debate out there... And I can see your point. The first problem is I’m still not convinced about the entire ‘sacrificed her life’ thing, even though it’s sort of hinted in MOtP... (perhaps I’ll make a topic on this someday). But I agree that such a reward would be a nice gift from the Planet... it’s just that there doesn’t seem to be enough hints to justify belief in breaking those rules on such a scale. I’m not saying it’s impossible (we know A LOT is possible in FFVII world), but it seems to me that basing such a theory on little hints we’re given is a bit over the top... especially as much simpler explanation may fit nicely too.

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But it still doesn't answer the question - why was Aerith shown in that flowerfield, if it's not possible that Cloud is able to meet her??(...)  Why show her standing - as if waiting - and lifting her head when he approaches. Why show her there, large as life, real as day - in that flowerfield, if not for the possible assumption of viewers that Cloud will be able to meet her there, as long as he goes to that flowerfield, which he does?

I risk repeating myself here, but the basis of my interpretation was the assumption that the flowerfield in “Calling” is NOT the flowerfield visible on the photos over Cloud’s desk, and definitely not the ‘white’ flowerfield to which he’s pulled on the way to Forgotten Capital. I took the landscape of “Calling” as a symbolic one (“Cloud’s inner landscape”), with Aerith there as a symbol of her continued presence.
In other words...
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"Calling" symbolizes Cloud being free from his guilt, but it also symbolizes Aerith always being with Cloud. That's why we see Aerith in the flowerfield he rides to. Where ever he may be, she'll be there too. And his memories of her will always be dear to him. Hence, the flowers and pictures on his desk in the end. Mementos of Aerith through the whole flowerfield connection. She's still dear to him, and she will continue to be with him after death. I don't know if that made sense, but I tried.

Well said, msz aeris strife, it made a lot of sense... and it’s exactly what I was trying to say (although I was unable to put it as coherently as you did).

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Why should the rules bend for Cloud and Aerith - which in this case - Aerith does not return to life. It's not too extreme to have Cloud able to reunite with her, after all, he is shown to be searching for her in many other spin-off games, a coverage which no other FF couple has. Cloud is certainly one of SE's most popular characters, and I don't think it's too extreme for SE to end his story by enabling him to reunite with the girl he's been searching for so long.

We–e-ell, if we assume she can physically ‘meet’ him (make conversation, touch him, kiss him...) that seems rather close to ‘returning to life’ concept. The only difference would be that she could only be ‘alive’ for Cloud and only in one specific location. To tell the truth, before AC was released, I sort of thought they ARE going to bring her back in the end, and despite all the wailing how this would destroy the game, I wasn’t really worried about it. I even thought that it’d be a nice little twist, especially now, when most fans finally accepted her death and gave up nagging Square to give them working resurrection method. So I’m not dead against bringing her back somehow, and I accept precedents set by other games. But if I remember correctly (I only played FF games available on the PC...) those ‘resurrections’ were usually shown in a rather straightforward manner, not suggested by obscure hints... so I think that seeing the “Calling” as Aerith’s return (even if it’s only ‘partial’ return, for Cloud and him alone), we risk reading too much into this scene.
As for him searching for her, I have no doubt he searched and he found, and I guess you could say they get reunited in the end... it’s just that I tend to see the means of his search, ‘finding’ her and their reunion less literally then “flowerfield theory” suggests.

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I also don't think that Cloud can be "physically" with her. She doesn't have a body. But I think that he does have a sort of way to meet her psychically. When Cloud is riding to the Forgotten Capital, he gets drawn into this flowerfield where Aerith is. He's not ACTUALLY, PHYSICALLY there because he's still on his Fenrir. Pardon my cheesiness, but I think that scene is a result of their spirits communicating with each other. Cloud realized that he wanted forgiveness as he approached the place where she died, so his soul sought her out. And they found each other in a mental flowerfield of the flowers Aerith grew in her church. But they still can be with each other. Just not in a physical way.

But they CAN make ‘physical’ contact in the ‘white’ flowerfield you mentioned, she was able to touch his arm and he very much felt this touch... hey, this is great! You actually managed to find a way for them to ‘meet’ without calling upon miracles. I like this theory, even if I’m not sure if there’s enough reasons to believe those ‘meetings’ could happen on more regular basis. Still, this one ‘place’ (‘spirit connection’?) is the one and only where such contact is definitely possible.
Personally I always thought that their ‘meeting’ on the way to Forgotten Capital was special and one of a kind (and extremely important as it marks the moment Cloud’s guilt is lifted, so it was sort of a critical moment... the meeting itself was rather a brief one, too...). Aerith didn’t ‘return’, she came to his aid because he needed her help... and this, together with underlying finality I sensed in her farewell in the church scene made me believe he won’t be seeing her anytime soon, at least not unless something huge happens again. But if there was a way for him to ‘meet’ her from time to time in the ‘place’ you mentioned (perhaps within a dream? it wouldn’t be healthy for him to suddenly space out while driving Fenrir! :lol: ) it’d tie nicely with everything we’re shown, and make the bittersweet ending of AC a little less bitter and a little more sweet. I’m not yet sure if I believe in your theory, msz aeris strife, but I kind of like it nonetheless.

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My main reason for my belief that both meetings with Aerith are on a spiritual, ethereal level-- because of the reaction on Cloud's face when he finally sees Aerith at the end of AC. That, there, is the shock we questioned being missing when he met her in the flowerfield

I admit I’ve never seen any Spiderman movie, so I cannot really comment on that example. From what I understand, you see the ‘white’ flowerfield meeting as something that happens in Cloud’s head rather than actual ‘spiritual connection’ with Aerith? Her spirit residing within him? <confused> We all agree it’s not a physical location (he’s still on Fenrir, after all), but this is new to me (and seems very different from the concept msz aeris strife came up with...) Must think.

As for the surprise factor in the quote... well, the first meeting was a short conversation in some white ‘otherworld’ (and yes, he definitely didn’t see her there), and the second - a brief vision inside a huge fireball (and he WAS quite shocked at this point, too). Now, he sees her standing in the doorway and talking to children... I was like ‘she’s back!’ :o for a second, so no wonder Cloud’s jaw dropped. I thought that was the reason he was so shocked at this moment - seeing her almost as if she was alive, interacting with the living in broad daylight, not necessarily because that was the first time he set eyes on her... but I’m not sure if I understood your concept of their previous meetings as was intended.

Jeeez, another long one... what’s gotten into me? :ermm:
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cloud_n_aerith_strife
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aeirth is clouds one and only
these are all very good theories, but I don't exactly undestand the theory of this being Cloud's inner landscape. I would think that this is an actual place he is riding his bike by. Aerith has been able to appear where he was before, so why should this be different? He is driving by, and she looks up as if to say he's coming. We know he has parked next to this flowerfield before. I don't understand why Cloud would go to just any flowerfield to pick flowers and take pictures of. We only see two flowerfields in this moive, the one that was in white of course is not an actual flowerfield, but the one he is driving by is an actual flowerfield where Aerith was standing. It did say in MOTP that she was being kept "whole." this thread has gone way off topic lol :) I'm sorry if I have repeated anything I said, I was too lazy to find my last post and see what I said
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Lynn
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Lynn has no Lloud smut ;-;
Lynx
 
But I want to believe she can recieve this opportunity in reward for sacrificing her own life to save the world.

Just to touch briefly on this-- I've always viewed the Planet as a sentient being, with a strong sense of self-preservation. I don't mean to say the Planet is evil, but like all living beings, its primary focus is the preservation of itself. I see it looking out for humans as long as they are advantageous to the Planet, and when they stop being that, as they had in FFVII-the-game, the Planet will remove them as much as needed to keep itself alive (e.g. WEAPONs attacking Mideel and Midgar).

That is why I cannot believe that the Planet would grant Aerith a special reward for saving it. Aerith speculated in MOTP that the Planet kept her whole because she had a further duty to accomplish, which is also what I see happening. The Planet is keeping her whole in case something occurred that threatened its survival, and the caution paid off for AC (although it could be said that it had known ahead of time the problem of Geostigma... but I digress).

What I'm saying is, the Planet doesn't do favours for people, so I can't see it doing any favours for Aerith either. Yes, she is Cetra, but her duty is to the Planet. She is not the princess of the Planet, but could actually be considered its servant. Why should the Planet reward her for carrying out that duty?

There's really very little, if anything at all, to back this view up. It's just the way I see the Planet operating-- not as we do, we who recognise self-sacrifice and may reward/exalt the person; but almost as an animal, working on instinct alone. It keeps Aerith around because it needs her, not because it thinks she deserves a little bit of happiness for helping it.

msz aeris strife
 
"Calling" symbolizes Cloud being free from his guilt, but it also symbolizes Aerith always being with Cloud. That's why we see Aerith in the flowerfield he rides to.

On my belief of Cloud not being able to see Aerith before the church scene-- I believe it's his guilt that kept him from seeing her face in the flowerfield. As that guilt slowly diminished, he almost saw her face in Bahamut's flame. When it was fully gone (or as fully as it could possibly be gone, since I don't believe in such miraculous healing myself), we see Aerith bright and colourful and alive-- in the CALLING video.

So yes, I suppose this subscribes to the "inner Cloud landscape" idea too.

Whisper
 
I admit I’ve never seen any Spiderman movie, so I cannot really comment on that example. From what I understand, you see the ‘white’ flowerfield meeting as something that happens in Cloud’s head rather than actual ‘spiritual connection’ with Aerith? Her spirit residing within him?

Yes, Aerith residing in Cloud. ^_^ Although I'm not casting aside the 'spiritual connection' idea either, as I see it part-and-parcel of having the remnants of someone's spirit inside you.

Have you played Kingdom Hearts 1? I see a similarity between my interpretation and the link between Sora and Kairi as well. Throughout the game, Sora would see sudden flashes of Kairi standing before him, even if she's physically nowhere to be found. She walks before him, spirit-like, speaking as if she were there. It is only later on that we find out Kairi's heart has been residing within Sora all along, and the "Kairi" he has been seeing is her heart speaking to him.

In a similar manner, I see Aerith's spirit residing within Cloud and speaking to him in the flowerfield and in Bahamut's flare. You could say it's all happening in his head, but that would imply he's simply making things up, which isn't what I'm suggesting. It's occuring in his head, but Aerith is there.

This is just something that occurred to me, but I suppose you could almost say that while Sephiroth's remnants resided in the Northern Crater, Aerith's remnants resided within Cloud's soul. But while Sephiroth's remnants took physical shape and form, probably thanks to Jenova's influence, Aerith's remnants took on a more spiritual shape.

Ah, I'm sorry that I keep using examples. I find it's a clearer way to illustrate how I view the two scenes, especially since Kairi and Uncle Ben didn't have Cetra powers to give the scenes a magical push. Of course, that only works assuming we've both seen the examples ourselves. :lol:

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I thought that was the reason he was so shocked at this moment - seeing her almost as if she was alive, interacting with the living in broad daylight, not necessarily because that was the first time he set eyes on her... but I’m not sure if I understood your concept of their previous meetings as was intended.

I apologise, I wasn't very clear on that last part (although to be honest, I'm still working out a version I'm happy with myself. There are just too many interesting theories to consider! Something tells me I'm going to start contradicting myself soon, I can tell :P).

I've already suggested that the two previous scenes between Aerith and Cloud took place, for lack of a better phrase, mostly in his head. However, I believe that the Aerith he saw at the end was not the spirit residing within him, but the Aerith whose presence continued to remain in the Lifestream after her death, only given physical shape and form.

Basically, we are in the present, physical world and, as you said, she's there. He's looking at her with his physical eyes, for the first time. It's not a dream, and it's not any sort of spiritual mumbojumbo. She is right there. (My only reason is the fact that she interacts with the children there. If Aerith had simply stood there looking at Cloud, I'd be inclined to think it was all happening in his head again.)

Okay, now to make sense of that idea-- Just as Tidus was given form in FFX, and was able to interact with other people despite being a dream; so were Aerith and Zack given form in AC. So, for now anyway, I put Aerith and Zack's formations down to the combination of unique events that happened that day: Sephiroth's return, who called forth the black Lifestream tainted by souls of the victims of Geostigma, the lake in the Church, the rain that cured Geostigma across the cities...

That's a lot of Lifestream running around. Who's to say that, due to this unique combination of events, Aerith and Zack's souls weren't able to take form for the briefest times, just to say their final goodbyes to Cloud? (I realise I'm banking on a 'miracle' argument here, but I'm looking at Aerith and Zack's returns as a pretty miraculous event anyway. :lol: )

That is not to say I believe Aerith can reappear whenever she wants, and that she and Cloud can have conversations at their whim. I considered it a very unique moment, and I don't think Aerith will appear to Cloud soon, if ever again. But that's why I also believe their last words to one another were so important-- a final reassurance that they're always there for each other, and then the final goodbye.

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Jeeez, another long one... what’s gotten into me?

You're opening to your inner, loves-long-posts Cleris. :evil: Don't worry, I believe most of us here are like that!
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yin-chan
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*dreamchaser*
AAAAAAUUUUUGGGGGHHHHHHH ALL THE LONG AMAZING REPLIES THAT I CAN NEVER REPLY INTELLIGENTLY TO. :cry: Why oh why do I foolishly partake in this thread. :lmao:

Okay, I'm going to ignore everything else *pushes it all to someone else* :lol: and just focus on the flowerfield discussion, that's the only complicated matter I think my brain can handle right now before exploding. :lol:

Whisper
 
I risk repeating myself here, but the basis of my interpretation was the assumption that the flowerfield in “Calling” is NOT the flowerfield visible on the photos over Cloud’s desk, and definitely not the ‘white’ flowerfield to which he’s pulled on the way to Forgotten Capital.


I completely agree that the Flowerfield in Calling is not the same as the white flowerfield. :)
However, I disagree that the flowerfield is different from the one shown on the photos on Cloud's desk.

The flowerfield in Calling and the flowerfield in the photos -- well, let's just put it this way. In Calling we see Cloud travelling through em on his bike. And if he takes photos, he obviously has to take them..well..physically in a physical place, no? The only flowerfield we are actually shown him travelling through are the ones in Calling. I see no sense for it to be different flowerfields, when very obviously that is the flowerfield showcased the most, and also the only flowerfield (in reality) that Cloud visits. I mean...it's pretty obvious from the way the shots are built up.
In the beginning of the movie, there are no flowerfield photos whatsoever, just barren lands, possibly hints that Cloud has been searching - but has failed to find - and after AC - which is where the contrast between pre-AC Cloud and post-AC Cloud is showcased - Cloud is shown determinedly travelling through that flowerfield. And finally all the photos are now of that flowerfield. Somehow it symbolizes he's found IT, whatever it may be.

The point that Aerith is shown in that flowerfield seems to only emphasize that IT just might be her.

There's nothing to imply that the flowerfield in the photos is a completely new and different flowerfield than the one in Calling, and it would be a bit ... odd... if it was a whole new flowerfield, but with nothing indicated on the matter. Most viewers would draw the conclusion that it is the same flowerfield, seeing that it's the only one Cloud is shown visiting, both in AC and Reminiscence, and the shots on the desk and walls that look extremely similiar.

I understand what you say about Cloud's inner landscape, but I tend to think of it more as a real landscape, in a way also emphasizing on how he has found his freedom and chose to ride out into the world, rather than stay at home and be Happy Family Man with Tifa his beautiful blushing bride. :rolleyes:


.....

I think I could've said better, but my brain isn't fuctioning right tonight, for some kooky reason. :lol:

YESS!!!! Only tackling the flowerfield discussion enables me a short post for once, in this thread!!! :D Oh the miracles!!!

*glomps everyone and scootles out* :glomp:
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Lynx
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~handle with care~
My, now I'm not even able to respond normally <_< . Well, I'll try to.

Lynn
 
What I'm saying is, the Planet doesn't do favours for people, so I can't see it doing any favours for Aerith either. Yes, she is Cetra, but her duty is to the Planet. She is not the princess of the Planet, but could actually be considered its servant. Why should the Planet reward her for carrying out that duty?

Well, that was my brief guess-work 'cause I didn't have a lot of time to think over this. But now I think I have to agree with you, Lynn. Really, I wasn't thinking about that when I was writing my previous post. Nah, I'll never learn to debate. :(

But then again, some thoughts about the whole Calling video suddenly appeared in my head. Ok, let's imagine that Aerith can't be physically with him in that ending video. But SE has shown her standing there for some purpose. I think that in this case her -spirit- was there, invisible for all the people in FFVII world and only visible for us, viewers. Well, that doesn't ruin the fact of her being dead. She doesn't have a physical body, but how could creators show her to us? So, I think, they had to make her visible to show her reaction for his coming maybe.
So according to this guess-work (definately not a theory) Cloud goes there to visit her... erm... spirit? I mean yes, he can feel her but then what is he doing there? (this is the question I've been interested in for a lo-o-ong time) He can take the flowers and those fotos because he can't always be in the flowerfield and wants to have something that is always with him. But as we are shown in Reminiscence he is going to spend the entire day there. Again, what is he doing to do there then?
*I feel like I'm silly <_< *

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