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| What Made Cloud Stronger?; Reference to Sephiroth's line | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 15 2006, 03:16 AM (1,100 Views) | |
| Sadhana | Mar 15 2006, 03:16 AM Post #1 |
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capitalism is dead
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During the battle with Sephiroth, Cloud and he clash swords at which point Sephiroth asks him, "What made you stronger?" Cloud basically responds in saying that he doesn't want to say to the likes of Sephiroth. Later on, Cloud says that nothing isn't important to him. When I first watched this movie, I assumed that everything being important was the answer to Sephiroth's question. However, upon reviewing it, that didn't make much sense to me. If Sephiroth is asking what made him stronger since their last fight, I don't understand how suddenly "everything" made him more powerful. I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on the matter or suggestions as to what might've made Cloud stronger. I have two theories. The first is that he was made stronger by all the support he recieved from his comrads throughout the movie, but he had such support when first battling Sephiroth. The second- and more hopeful- of my theories is that he's referring to the contact he had earlier in the film with Aerith. As far as I could tell, Cloud hadn't been able to see her before this (whether that be spiritually or literally, I don't really have an opinion). Maybe seeing her again and finally grabbing her hand in the Bahamut SIN scene gave him that much more strength . But I could just be stretching facts here. Either way, let me know what you think!
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| yin-chan | Mar 15 2006, 06:05 AM Post #2 |
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*dreamchaser*
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Interesting thought, msz aeris strife! :lol: Let's see now.... I should think it's like you said, mostly because of all the support, confidence and trust his comrades have placed in him prior to that fight with Sephy, but at the same time, you also tend to remember Aerith, who gave him the boost of strength he just needed for it. Remember, "Let's go, Cloud." ? And followed immediately with him speeding off towards Midgar.And then right at the beginning of the battle with Sephy, we see flashes of Aerith as well - so it's not too hard to deduce that Aerith was one of his main sources of strength that 'made him stronger'. Without a doubt, Tifa, Barret and the rest of the Avalanche crew all lent a big hand - but then again they had been lending him a hand ever since FF7. So really, it's quite safe to draw the conclusion that Aerith would be his main motivation for regaining his strength and spirit. Another reason why Cloud took up his sword again was because Aerith assured him her forgiveness, right? Cloud started fighting again after he met her in the flowerfield. Before that, he barely put up a decent fight with the SHM in the first bike chase scene. But after meeting Aerith, that boy sure puts on some moves! Aerith's forgiveness was what was keeping him away from his hero status, so when he discovers she has no grudges towards him, he gradually gets stronger and finds the 'strong feelings' inside him to fight again. Sephiroth took Aerith away from him, so I'm sure she would be in Cloud's mind some way or another when he saw Sephy again. How can Cloud tell Sephiroth, "The girl you killed made me stronger!!" :lol: Would be very sweet and amusing, but not something Cloud would say, I suppose. And it's too direct, which would be contradicting SE's stance of leaving everything open to interpretation. Of course, once again, it's not just Aerith alone which is the source of his strength, but she's the one that gives him the most motivation to fight. At least, that's what I think or it's just my biased Cleris mind taking over. :lol: |
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| Lady_leBLanc | Mar 15 2006, 04:21 PM Post #3 |
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Moonlight Sonata of Cloud ...
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yin-chan you have interpreted it very well, I like your analyse a lot
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| Whisper | Mar 15 2006, 06:28 PM Post #4 |
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Member
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It seems fairly obvious that Aerith triggered his change and thus made him “stronger” (I think quite a few things happened to him, getting “stronger” was just what Sephiroth noticed... or how he interpreted this change). After all, her appearance was the only real difference; the Avalanche were there all the time, and while I think that we (biased as we are) tend to downplay their role sometimes, there’s no doubt that Aerith’s intervention was required for Cloud to fully appreciate support from others. I also agree that he probably didn’t see her before the flowerfields scene (though I always had the impression he DID see her during the hand reach scene at end of the game, and it didn’t look like she was blaming him then... continuity issue?). His gradual change takes place after this brief meeting (and indeed, each time he sees her afterwards, he seems to power up a little...) and while the meaning of this change is (obviously...) up to interpretation, I don’t think it’s possible to negate Aerith’s role in triggering it. Though I have no doubt some people will try nonetheless... |
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| Sadhana | Mar 16 2006, 12:16 AM Post #5 |
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capitalism is dead
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Yeah, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Cloud's strength was derived from the support everyone lended him. But I was convinced (and still am!) when I first saw AC that Aerith's support had an immeasurably more affecting impact on Cloud. Tifa had more screentime, but in this movie, that didn't seem to matter much. In AC, Aerith was the one who saved his life twice, the only one who effectively motivated him to move forward and never give in, and the only one Cloud could trust with his deep sentiments of failure and guilt. Maybe everyone did help in making him stronger. But Aerith aided him ten times more with ten times less screentime than, for example, Tifa. |
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| yin-chan | Mar 16 2006, 03:26 AM Post #6 |
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*dreamchaser*
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I'm not too sure about that. I agree with it somewhat - but Aly once made some very good points on why she felt he had seen her - or communicated with her in some way before the flowerfield scene. In all means, it doesn't make much reason, because if he had communicated with her before the flowerfield, she would've forgiven him long ago and AC would never have to happen. Some other members also said that perhaps he could feel her presence - but not be able to see her or talk to her because of his guilt. But by all means - it doesn't answer the point Aly made that Cloud didn't seem surprised to see her in the flowerfield scene. If you suddenly got flung into a white world where you see your dead friend, wouldn't you be a little more surprised? Perhaps an exclamation of astonishment, or wide-eyed gaping in breathless wonder? But Cloud looked perfectly calm, almost like he was accustomed to being drawn into Aerith's world on a daily basis. Nevertheless, it's still possible he hasn't seen her before the flowerfield scene, but I'm sure he must've felt her calming presence somewhat, while living in the church. I think there was a topic focusing on this somewhere in the forum if you want to discuss it further, but I'm not too sure where... *goes to hunt* Edit : Urgh, I can't find it. :lol: It seems to have dissapeared, yet I distinctly remember a topic on that!! Oh well, if anyone can find it, do share the link! ![]()
Exactly, mzs! Much as I like Tifa, I must admit that her screentime was used very....sparingly. The first quarter of the movie, she only had a few scenes with Cloud, and even then the only productive one was when she lectured him to save the kids, with the help of Reno and Rude. The rest of her screentime was mostly focused on her helping in Avalanche to fight with, and support Cloud.Aerith's screentime however, was all used for major parts of the plot progression - all revolving around Cloud by helping him, curing him, supportin him and finally lifting his spirits. Anyone can see that Aerith's intervention on Cloud's behalf was extremely important and significant to the story - whereas most of Tifa's screentime could have just as easily been replaced by someone else, like Barret - or even an NPC. |
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| Whisper | Mar 16 2006, 06:37 PM Post #7 |
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Member
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It sure looks messed up... I don’t think I’ve seen the topic you’re referring to, but as for him sensing her presence somehow... yeah, that’s possible. I remember some argument stating that he couldn’t see or communicate with her because of guilt (aka Dyne and Eleanor in MOtP, if I remember correctly). Sensing her presence is a different thing, perhaps that’s one of the reasons he ended up living in the church? Hoping that in that place he could “sense” her more clearly? Sadly, there’s not enough info given to seriously speculate on the matter.
Well, that depends... he DID look surprised to me, though not nearly as much as he should’ve been in the situation you described. Anyway, at the time I thought that in meeting her (though not seeing her, even then... maybe that ‘guilt’ argument was dead on?) he achieved something he longed for (he DID seek her out in his own way... ), so that expectation dulled the surprise somewhat. But of course there’s always the possibility he have already seen the flowerfield before (in dreams?), and knew it was associated with Aerith somehow.
Not much to add there... And honestly, the ‘screentime comparison’ argument doesn’t make much sense to begin with; giving substantially more screentime to character that is essentially a spirit wouldn’t really fit into action – packed movie like AC (even though she does take part in battle anyway... there’s no stopping this girl!). Before the movie was released, people were saying Aerith will only appear in flashbacks, yet when she happened to have actual role... ah, you all know the routine. Anyway, without doubt she managed to achieve A LOT for mere minutes she’s on screen. |
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| Sadhana | Mar 17 2006, 12:39 AM Post #8 |
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capitalism is dead
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I'm just gonna add a couple thoughts here . Maybe Cloud didn't seem so shocked because he wanted to go there/see her. After all, Aerith said "So you came, huh?" and "Why did you come here?" That makes it seem like he wasn't so much drawn there as it was his own decision.
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| yin-chan | Mar 17 2006, 01:53 AM Post #9 |
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*dreamchaser*
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:) Great idea, msz aeris!!! I never thought of that before!! Whoa. Hmm... perhaps it was his own decision - but if he wanted so much to go see her, why was he only able to meet her just then??? Why couldn't he meet her earlier?? My conclusion is probably because of the guilt factor - it could also well be the fact that he's travelling to the Forgotten Capital, probably where memories of her are strongest - and yet in CoT we learn that he has visited the Forgotten Capital by himself as well, so if it had been his own desire tied to the place factor that caused him to see her, wouldn't he have seen her in CoT when he visited the lake?? I think the guilt theory brought up by Whisper and some other members of the forum is probably the most likely one.
I don't know, maybe it's individual perception, but he looked pretty unpertubed to me. He did look almost like he was anticipating the meeting though, a few seconds before being flung into the white matrix. :lol:
I agree with you there. All along he has just been pining away, wanting to meet her, and Aly also once made the point that his guilt started to fade after Aerith touched him. The warm touch was probably what Cloud needed to feel reassured that he wasn't alone. It probably works the same way in MoTP, when Dyne's guilt faded after Aerith touched him.
I don't know...in the beginning of the movie, the photos we see around Cloud's desk are pictures of green fields, no flowers in sight. It probably imposes that he has been searching somewhat, but I highly doubt he's actually seen the flowerfield. And if he had seen it in dreams, wouldn't Aerith have appeared to him there (like she did in FF7) and gave him his reassurance? ![]() Hahaha, this discussion really is moving along. :lol: |
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| cloud_n_aerith_strife | Mar 17 2006, 04:36 AM Post #10 |
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aeirth is clouds one and only
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in the end we get to see pictures of a field with flowers, that looks like the field Aerith was standing in. He was also riding along the same field that Aerith was standing in. Maybe that symbolizes that he has found her :) |
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| Skelly | Mar 17 2006, 06:49 PM Post #11 |
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a strange angel
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Intelligent conversation! XD To what made him stronger... his friends and those who died are the answers. AVALANCHE supported him, giving him time to heal (why didn't they look for him when he retreated to the church? They've just been calling him on his phone, not entirely tracing to where he was. And if they did know, they didn't ask him to come back to them, did they?) and having him face Kadaj alone. But the deceased definitely had the most impact. He lived for them, and in Aerith's case, she also healed him (I'm too lazy to quote all the quotes I'm referring to... XD) Cloud did look surprised once, didn't he? I mean the time when everything was just fading away and he was thrown abruptly forward. (Has no screenies... ::hint hint:: ) I don't think Cloud can actually put up some kind of connection with Aerith despite how much he wants to see her - Aerith is always the one shown to be the one making all of the connections with him. e.g: The dream in the Sleeping Forest, her hand helping him up before destroying Bahamut SIN, the flowerfield, and even in the church.
In my opinion, I see the former as a kind of greeting. (Haha, I always knew I was messed up...) Aerith speaks like that, doesn't she? She speaks in questions a lot, like when Cloud says he wants to be forgiven. Instead of just saying something like, "You are forgiven," she asks by who - meaning that she has forgiven him. Meh. Not the best of replies, huh? I'm tired... ::defends::
Awww... our little flower girl has a healing touch... ![]() |
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| goddess_in_pink07 | Mar 17 2006, 09:10 PM Post #12 |
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Unregistered
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I think its when Sephiroth actually started fighting Cloud. Sephiroth is like a symbol of all the bad things for Cloud. Sephiroth was the one who took Clouds happiness away. I think Sephiroth was like a reminder for Cloud. It brought Cloud face to face with the one who caused him so much pain. When Sephiroth was fighting Cloud, and he stabbed him in the shoulder, and said that line, it just pissed Cloud off. |
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| Whisper | Mar 17 2006, 10:06 PM Post #13 |
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Member
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Interesting... I always thought that it was her words that made the difference (“by whom?” – her question definitely got reaction from him), though I never made that connection with Dyne... But then, why should Aerith be able to remove Dyne’s guilt by touch? Didn’t she rather convince him he was already forgiven? Interesting idea anyway...
Well, I assumed that it was part of ‘sensing presence’ deal. He couldn’t see her or communicate with her, but perhaps he dreamt of flowerfields and felt her presence there... but this raises another question:
...and assuming his guilt was stopping HIM, why didn’t SHE contact him sooner? We know he had this guilt problem all along, that he visited Forgotten Capital before... and that she never really blamed him for what happened. So, why didn’t she appear sooner? If his guilt was somehow stopping her too, what change made the meeting possible?
OK, this may get confusing... I have the impression there are THREE flowerfields: the ‘white’ one, where Cloud and Aerith are standing back to back, is definitely not an actual place accessible by physical means; the yellow ones visible on photographs obviously are real; and the one seen in “Calling”... is uncertain. I know there are theories that this is an actual place where Cloud and Aerith can meet almost anytime they wish, but somehow this doesn’t sound convincing to me. I don’t think he could ever ‘find’ her by going around on Fenrir, or that there would be any special place where they could interact as if she was still alive. IMO, landscape seen in “Calling” was more symbolic, perhaps an ‘inner landscape’ type of thing. As it’s Cloud’s inner landscape, it’s obvious Aerith is there, but as for ‘meeting’ her there... I don’t think so. His guilt was lifted, he was reassured of Aerith’s continued presence, knows she is always there for him... so yes, he ‘found’ her, in a way, and knows he is not truly separated from her... but sadly, she’s not ‘back’ and never will be. There seemed to be some finality in her farewell in the ending of AC, and for some reason I feel that he won’t be seeing her all that often after that, if at all. Feel her presence, dream about her – possible, but ‘meet’ her, talk to her, touch her? I don’t think so... and honestly, I think he doesn’t need to. He KNOWS she will always be with him, and doesn’t need repeated confirmation of her presence. (Yeah, that’s exactly what I had in mind putting that quote in my sig...) Duh, that got long... of course, this are all purely personal opinions without any real evidence on my side (well, interpretation of “Calling” is pure speculation anyway...), so this theory is about as good as any other. Don’t shoot. |
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| cloud_n_aerith_strife | Mar 18 2006, 03:08 AM Post #14 |
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aeirth is clouds one and only
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so you really don't think it's possible that he could "meet" her in that field, I guess we will never know, but I took it in a different way. We see Cloud riding along the field and then we see Aerith standing in the field and she looks with a happy smile on her face as if she knows he's coming. We see flowers picked from the field and he was able to touch her so I don't see why it can't be possible. She loves Cloud and Cloud is able to feel her prescence so I don't see why she wouldn't come to see him if she could. What do other people think about this scene? |
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| yin-chan | Mar 18 2006, 03:33 AM Post #15 |
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*dreamchaser*
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Definitely not going to shoot you, Whisper! You made some really excellent points there! ![]() Urrgghhh *drags in other older members to discuss* Whisper's too hard for me to tackle alone! ![]()
Bloodbath, WHO ARE YOU??!??! :lol: You're a Cetra, so I must know you, and your sig and quote seem awfully familiar, but who were you before Bloodbath!?! You can't possibly be MT or Hyper, right?? *tries to remember all Crows members* :lol: Anyways. Yes, I agree he did look slightly surprised at the final moments before being thrown, but as soon as he lands his face immediately switches to that expression which is sort of like, "Oh, it's here." Almost as if he immediately knew where he was and who he was meeting, but if he hadn't experienced it before, how would he know? ![]()
Hmm...*digs up MoTP*
Dyne was already showing signs of remorse before Aerith touched him, but I believe it was at this point that it completely faded - possibly symbolized by the blood [sin] that faded away at Aerith's touch.
............... Hmm.... Oh my. That's a tough cookie. :lol: *pokes Aly* Can you come up with some sort of theory? Y'know, I've never thought of that before. Why couldn't Aerith meet him earlier? Okay, let's say it was Cloud's guilt that prevented her from meeting him. Suppose Cloud's guilt was the same the first time he visited the Forgotten Capital - which we know Aerith didn't appear to him then, because if she had - he wouldn't be feeling guilty and alone - so why was Aerith able to appear to him now, in AC? What was the difference between his guilt now and the first time Cloud went to the lake? ![]() .....There is no difference. The only thing is perhaps Cloud didn't have Geostigma the first time he went - but I don't see how Geostigma is a gateway for Aerith to communicate with him. Assuming his guilt increased from the time span between the first visit and AC - surely it would've been easier for Aerith to meet him when his guilt was less? ....... I must ponder this. :lol:
But why not? It's all purely speculation from Calling onwards, but if you observe Cloud's desk after the song - there is a flower - presumably from the flowerfield Aerith was in as we are not shown any other flowerfield in Calling - freshly picked and put on the desk. There are photos of that same flowerfield strewn all over the table and on the walls. Clorith once pointed out Cloud returns to the flowerfield repeatedly, to take the photos, to pick the flowers. Why would he keep visiting the flowerfield if Aerith was not there?? We see Aerith there, standing [and presumably waiting] and she lifts her head, almost in a "He's here." gesture, and immediately the shot is cut to Cloud speeding along, more determined than ever. And assuming she was there and Cloud was able to meet her, she was able to touch him in AC. The hand-reach scene, the flowerfield scene - if she was in that flowerfield, why would she not be able to touch him then? If she had bid Cloud a final adieu at the end of AC and was never to be seen again, why was she in the flowerfield? Why didn't she just return to the planet, like Zack and all the dead people before her? Why was she there - clear and whole as life? And in Reminisence, the phonecall Cloud gets from Tifa takes place in the flowerfield. We know this because Cloud isn't on his bike, and the shot is of the same yellow flowerfield. He tells Tifa to close the shop. While in the flowerfield. I take this to imply that there is something in that flowerfield - that keeps Cloud coming back for more. If it was a final goodbye, Cloud wouldn't even be able to sense her presence. But this is contradicted by the whole flowerfield thing. Nomura says Calling ends Cloud's story, and Calling ends with Cloud riding out into the flowerfield. That says more than enough to me.
I saw the landscape (through my cleris tinted biased glasses :lol: ) to be very symblic of Cleris, because Aerith is the embodiment of earth, and Cloud is well... Cloud. :lol: And we see plenty of rolling shots with clouds caressing the earth, even shots where Cloud himself are not in them. We see plenty of different kinds of landscapes, and Cloud travelling free through them, free as the wind, out into the planet Aerith loved so much. But yes, any theory is as good as any other when it comes to Calling. :lol: There's so much speculation all around, it makes my head hurt. ![]() Have you ever considered joining The Northern Crater, Whisper? :lol: You're so good at debating, I think you'd make a nice addition there to the LT debates between Cleris and Cloti! :lol: |
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. But I could just be stretching facts here. Either way, let me know what you think!



And followed immediately with him speeding off towards Midgar.
I don't know, maybe it's individual perception, but he looked pretty unpertubed to me. He did look almost like he was anticipating the meeting though, a few seconds before being flung into the white matrix. :lol:
I'm tired... ::defends::


12:37 AM Jul 11