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Maiden Of The Planet: Lovers?; I'm wondering about this...
Topic Started: Feb 8 2006, 07:10 PM (1,070 Views)
wilhelm
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Digital Holocaust
Feb 9 2006, 06:50 PM
It wasn't a dig at you at all, it's just that translating it in a way that I can't understand makes me feel confused and as though I've been lied to regarding the novel, it really isn't a nice feeling when you have to question the way things are meant to be said.

It's alright, what I said before doesn't make much sense with the first line as it was and I didn't really explain the first part well before.

Quote:
 
I do apologise if I got the wrong side of your intentions Wilhelm... Hmm, I honestly can't think of anything out of the top of my head as I really did believe that the translations of each story was very accurate. How accurate do you think the stories are in your opinion? Would you say they were mostly accurate but they're mistranslating minor details or do you think they're not very accurate at all and are mistranslating quite important details?

Since I've not read the whole things, I wouldn't like to make any kind of statement about the whole thing since these might just be only minor parts. Most of the errors I've seen were mainly misreading particles (like the line about attactment to Cloud) or perhaps mistaking the meaning of words ('see/see as', some of which might be quite minor and incidental, but others (like the Lifestream bit) do change the meaning pretty considerably.
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Well, I posted this over in the Northern Crater, too... but not all "corrections" have been in the Cloti's favor. For example, in FFVII, there's a place where Cloud says this on board the Highwind after the Last Night Scene: "We've got to let go of Aerith's memory." Cloti's have often used that line to claim that Cloud is ready to move on with Tifa. However, Vilaeth confirmed for us that Cloud's really talking about freeing Aerith's spirit from Sephiroth's control. He's not talking about letting go of Aerith's memory.

Another example is that Cloti's have often tried to claim that Cloud is speaking of the whole group in the Death Scene when he says, "What about us... what are we supposed to do?" Cloti's claim that means, "What are we, the group, going to do about Meteor now that Aerith's gone and we can't use Holy?" However, Vilaeth and Shadow Spirit have both told us that Cloud is definitely talking about he and Aerith in that sentence, and that it really means, "What about me and Aerith... what are Aerith and I going to do?"

Vilaeth also argued against the translations of Dismantled that some Cloti's were using in the LT debates at ACF. The Cloti's were claiming that certain passages were pro-Cloti, and Vilaeth argued strongly against it.

Wilhelm argued against the Cloti's claim that Aerith had been killed off so that she could be replaced by Tifa when he found a translation of Nomura explaining that the entire staff had been involved in deciding Aerith's death. Nomura said in the article that the only reason they had decided to kill Aerith was because they thought Aerith's death would have the greatest effect on the players.

Vilaeth also found a translation for me to back up something I said the other day on the Northern Crater. I had quoted Nomura as saying that he didn't know whether or not Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved in the two years following FFVII, and that he'd left their relationship up to player interpretation. Hatsumi asked me for the source of that quote, and when I couldn't find it, Vilaeth found it for me.

So not all "corrections" have been in the Cloti's favor. :wink:
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Lynn
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Lynn has no Lloud smut ;-;
wilhelm
Feb 9 2006, 06:37 PM
I've never read the translation of either story in full, all I've seen is what people have quoted like this thread. I didn't really mean to make it seem like I was only going after the Aerith parts.

Sorry Wilhelm, I didn't mean at it as a slight against you or anyone else actually translating the parts. :blush:

I just react very badly towards people who like to shove MotP's "un-canonness" in my face, taking it apart in every way; claiming it's merely to dig up money from the Aerith fans (when obviously On The Way To A Smile and the entire Compilation were made with the purest, non-money-grubbing intentions at heart).

So much so that anytime the subject is brought up, a rant comes naturally. :P

Wilhelm
 
The first line isn't about making her affections about Cloud clear, it's still about if it's her lingering attachtment to Cloud that's keeping her 'clear/whole' (as opposed to everyone else).

Ah, thank you for clearing it up! I can finally make sense of that passage. Would this mean then, with the ending of AC and Aerith's role in saving the world over and done with, that by the time the events in DC happened, she would have joined the Lifestream like the other Cetra did?

Digital Holocaust
 
snippets of what Cloud has felt/said about Aeris in either CoT or FFVII itself always seems to be bought up for no real reason except to claim that we've been reading the dialogue incorrectly all this time.

It's very annoying, I'll agree. Almost as if Cloud couldn't possibly refer to Aerith in any way denoting affection, without someone claiming it's not what it seems.
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Anti-R
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Quote:
 
Ah, thank you for clearing it up! I can finally make sense of that passage. Would this mean then, with the ending of AC and Aerith's role in saving the world over and done with, that by the time the events in DC happened, she would have joined the Lifestream like the other Cetra did?


I don't think so. I mean, Aerith would have done that in the end of FFVII, she saved the world. Her Cetra job is done, she should diminish.

That didn't happen in AC, two years later. In fact, did you see the last scene of Zack and Aerith? I love my DVD copy, but you could see Aerith being so bright and pink, while Zack looked very dim next to her? o.0; quite amazing. I wonder what SE is hinting at...

And finally SE DOES have the penchant to bring dead characters back, instead of letting them lie. I don't think they'd do the same to Aerith, who was already a favorite.
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Anastar
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Anti-R
Feb 12 2006, 03:59 AM
Quote:
 
Ah, thank you for clearing it up! I can finally make sense of that passage. Would this mean then, with the ending of AC and Aerith's role in saving the world over and done with, that by the time the events in DC happened, she would have joined the Lifestream like the other Cetra did?

I don't think so. I mean, Aerith would have done that in the end of FFVII, she saved the world. Her Cetra job is done, she should diminish.

That didn't happen in AC, two years later. In fact, did you see the last scene of Zack and Aerith? I love my DVD copy, but you could see Aerith being so bright and pink, while Zack looked very dim next to her? o.0; quite amazing. I wonder what SE is hinting at...

I agree, Anti-R. We could still see Aerith in the flower field at the end of AC. Even if you think that she had "duties" to fulfill in AC, she was still there at the end of it after saving Cloud, fighting Geostigma, etc.

Aerith also said in MotP that she wasn't sure if she would join the Lifestream after fulfilling her duties to the Planet, or after confessing her love to Cloud, or whether she would always be "whole". She was uncertain about what would allow her to join the Lifestream, so I think SE left it up to interpretation.

I mean, theoretically, Aerith may not ever re-join the Lifestream since she's the last Cetra who can carry out the will of the Planet. If the Planet feels that it's necessary to have a Cetra around "just in case", it may never let her rejoin the Lifestream - theoretically speaking.

Lynn
 
Ah, thank you for clearing it up! I can finally make sense of that passage. Would this mean then, with the ending of AC and Aerith's role in saving the world over and done with, that by the time the events in DC happened, she would have joined the Lifestream like the other Cetra did?

Actually, the Cetra showed the capability not to join the Lifestream in FFVII. When they got to the Temple of Ancients, Aerith falls to the ground and says this:

Aerith "This is... the Temple of the Ancients..."
"I... I know... I feel it... the knowledge of the Ancients.. floating..."
"You could become one with the Planet, but you're stopping it with the strength of will."
"For the future? For us?"


Apparently, there were spirits of the Ancients guarding the Temple who hadn't joined the Lifestream. They prevented their return to the Planet by stopping it with the strength of their will, and they'd done it for hundreds of years. We all know that Aerith has a strong will, so she could theoretically do the same thing.
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Clerith-son
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In MoTP Aerith was wondering why hadn't she became one with the Planet, so I doubt she was preventing it with her will.

Actually what you said about the Planet having her as a separate entity, has good bases, Why? In the game, after her death she remained as a whole because the Planet still need her, the same happened in AC, she ramained as a whole in order to stop Geostigma. So, as long as the Planet is under some threat I think tha Planet will keep her as an independent being.

I think she won't be able to become one with the Planet until the J-Threat is over, Why? In the game she was kept to stop Meteor (wich was Sephiroth's work), in AC to stop Geostigma (wich was caised by J-Cells) and in in DoC's secret ending (the scene where the character physically based on Gackt appears), was probably hinted that the J-Threat wasn't over, since there was shown a One Winged being. So the question is: Will she be able to do it in a possible sequel?
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Anastar
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Clerith-son
Feb 18 2006, 10:31 PM
In MoTP Aerith was wondering why hadn't she became one with the Planet, so I doubt she was preventing it with her will.

True. I was just saying that it appears that she'd be capable of it if she wanted to do it. For example, let's say she meets Cloud and confesses her love to him in the flower field, and Cloud confesses his love to her. If that happened, she may want to hang around rather than return to the Planet.

Clerith-son
 
Actually what you said about the Planet having her as a separate entity, has good bases, Why? In the game, after her death she remained as a whole because the Planet still need her, the same happened in AC, she ramained as a whole in order to stop Geostigma. So, as long as the Planet is under some threat I think tha Planet will keep her as an independent being.

I think she won't be able to become one with the Planet until the J-Threat is over, Why? In the game she was kept to stop Meteor (wich was Sephiroth's work), in AC to stop Geostigma (wich was caised by J-Cells) and in in DoC's secret ending (the scene where the character physically based on Gackt appears), was probably hinted that the J-Threat wasn't over, since there was shown a One Winged being. So the question is: Will she be able to do it in a possible sequel?

That's a good possibility, too, except I wonder if that will happen in CC rather than in another sequel? It's always possible that CC starts before FFVII and ends after DoC. I've always sorta doubted that CC would be only a prequel, since I think that'd be an odd way to end the Compilation.
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Clerith-son
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Who knows? As you've just said CC might end this FFVII's Compilation, but I don't think that way, I have my reasons for beliving that they wouldn't end FFVII in the PSP when FFVII is such a popular game and not everyone has a PSP. Also there's some DoC scans with the name of each part of the Compilation starting from BC, followed by CC, FFVII (the game), AC and DoC, and after DoC the words "to be continued?" were written.

I think that if there's going to be a sequel, the console in wich it will be released will be the PS3. It'd be the perfect console since the it's been pretty much anticipated by fans, and it's the best option in graphic terms and power for SE. Just imagine that game in thoe graphics, I can almost drool by the thought of it.
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Anastar
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We've also heard some hints that there may be other sequels, so what you're saying is very possible, Clerith-son. At this point, I think I'd rather see them end the Compilation now that Cloud's story has ended.

To get back to the original topic of the thread:

wilhelm
Feb 8 2006, 09:06 PM
It's to see loved ones or family, not be seen as lovers/family. It's what the people who died in distant lands did, wanted to see people, or tell them they loved them. It's part of the line after the --- bit. People with attachments to the world were kept clear or whole.

I don't think it's just spirits who have attachments to the world that were kept whole. Here's the passage again:

MotP
 
Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or loved one... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a "whole".

It says that those who still had those feelings *or* had those feelings left behind them, which makes it sound as if they would also remain whole if living people were still attached to the person who had died. In other words, it sounds like it's saying that it may be Aerith's feelings for Cloud which kept her whole, or it may also be Cloud's feelings for Aerith which kept her whole.

(Of course, it was also said that she may have remained whole because the Planet had further duties for her to fulfill. As Clerith-son pointed out, the Planet may very well want to keep her around as long as there are Jenova cells on the Planet. So we're given three different possible reasons that her consciousness remains whole. I'm just focusing on what's said in that one passage.)

I'm still unclear on what Wilhelm means about the second sentence in that passage, too. Is it saying that Aerith wants to see her family or loved ones... or what? It seems like a large transition for the subject to change from plural to singular and for the verb to change from passive to active. So I'm unclear on how exactly it would be translated. :unsure:
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wilhelm
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Anastar
Feb 19 2006, 04:04 PM
Is it saying that Aerith wants to see her family or loved ones... or what?

It's not Aerith stating what she wants to do, it's giving examples of what she saw with the souls while she was living in Midgar.
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Anastar
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wilhelm
Feb 19 2006, 06:26 PM
Anastar
Feb 19 2006, 04:04 PM
Is it saying that Aerith wants to see her family or loved ones... or what?

It's not Aerith stating what she wants to do, it's giving examples of what she saw with the souls while she was living in Midgar.

Okay... now you have me even more confused. :blush: What you just said sounds like the translation of this part:

MotP
 
During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a "whole".

I was talking about the translation of this part:

MotP
 
Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers...

Sorry if I'm being thick. :blush:
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wilhelm
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Anastar
Feb 19 2006, 06:34 PM
wilhelm
Feb 19 2006, 06:26 PM
Anastar
Feb 19 2006, 04:04 PM
Is it saying that Aerith wants to see her family or loved ones... or what?

It's not Aerith stating what she wants to do, it's giving examples of what she saw with the souls while she was living in Midgar.

Okay... now you have me even more confused. :blush: What you just said sounds like the translation of this part:

MotP
 
During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a "whole".

I was talking about the translation of this part:

MotP
 
Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers...

Sorry if I'm being thick. :blush:

That's because the first line (the second sentence in the second quote) is actually the first part of "During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love." It's one long, kind of convulted line. The first part is meant to be together with part I bolded. He just tried to make it fancier by putting "first part---- bolded part." That whole thing is the second line (at least originally). Like:

Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a "whole".
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Anastar
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wilhelm
Feb 19 2006, 07:18 PM
That's because the first line (the second sentence in the second quote) is actually the first part of "During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love." It's one long, kind of convulted line. The first part is meant to be together with part I bolded. He just tried to make it fancier by putting "first part---- bolded part." That whole thing is the second line (at least originally). Like:

Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a "whole".

Okay... so, if I'm understanding you correctly, those spirits who confess their love for a living person do it with the intention of being seen as family or loved ones of the person who continues living. It seems to me that if a spirit had never confessed their love to a person who continues living, then the spirit would want to know if the living person loved them back. One confession would lead to another. So that's presumably why Aerith wants to confess her love, too? :unsure:
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wilhelm
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Anastar
Feb 19 2006, 07:32 PM
Okay... so, if I'm understanding you correctly, those spirits who confess their love for a living person do it with the intention of being seen as family or loved ones of the person who continues living.

They're doing it to see their family/loves and tell them they loved them, no seen as. It was the desire to see/tell them that kept them from disappearing.

I didn't mean to imply anything by bolding that last part, just to try to help show where the lines were meant to be.
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Clerith-son
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But why would Aerith have wanted to be seen as family or love affair of Cloud? I mean, there's nothing for her on making her relationship obvious to 3rd persons (People aside from her and Cloud).

I found wilhelm's explanation more accurate to the situation. I think, just telling Cloud she loved him would've been something Aerith would have wanted to do and not making it obvious as "being seen as family or lovers" might imply.
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