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Denzel; Who is he...really...
Topic Started: Oct 15 2005, 12:42 PM (913 Views)
Lynn
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Lynn has no Lloud smut ;-;
Quote:
 
This is why, in the Bahamut battle scene, Barret says something along the lines of "You stay back and look after your mother." He's referring to Tifa. I think a better English translation for 'okaasan' (mother in Japanese) in this context would be 'guardian'. Because Tifa and Cloud are Denzel's guardians.

I think the "okaasan" should be taken in the same way the children refer to Aerith as "oneechan"-- not literal blood relatives, but an indication of Tifa's relationship with Denzel and Aerith's relationship with the children.

So Denzel considers Tifa something of a "mother figure", as the children look to Aerith as a "big sister figure".

Although it's no wonder that people who don't watch anime regularly would be confused at where Tifa suddenly got this huge kid. :lol:

Anti-R
 
Not the other kids in the movie. I'm sorry to say, she's not running an orphanage.

It baffles me why they would keep the reference of Cloud "living with the children" during the scene with Rufus, though. If it was a scrapped idea, which I believe it was considering all the early reports, why not change the dialogue to something else?
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slowerthanaverage
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*somewhat lost*
Anti-R
Oct 31 2005, 09:52 AM
The movie shows that Tifa takes care of TWO children: Marlene and Denzel.

Not the other kids in the movie. I'm sorry to say, she's not running an orphanage.

As for Barret, he left to find oil (which he did) in AC. Since Marlene lives with Tifa before pre FFVII, it's not a stretch of the imagination that he'd leave her to Tifa's care. In CoT, Tifa tells people Marlene is her daughter.

Indeed, Anti-R.
The church ending scene showed that the rest of the orphans seem rather close to Cloud though, the way they surrounded him and held his hands...no signs that they are particularly close to Tifa. On the other hand, there are signs that these orphans seem to know Aerith. Aerith was shown talking to 2 kids at the doorway and the pretty girl with the moogle told him "Sister says we can find you here", suggesting that she knew "Sister" pretty well.
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Lynn
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Lynn has no Lloud smut ;-;
^Exactly, STA! The orphans seemed strangely close to Cloud, gathering around him like that. And they'd even made the trek back to the church from Edge just to find him. Why are they so close to him? CoT made no indication of him or Tifa communicating with orphans while he was living at Seventh Heaven.

It's all a little improperly aligned with the rest of the plot to me.

My feeling is that Cloud was originally meant to be living with orphans, that plot got changed during production but they didn't change the final scenes to match up accurately with it. You could say those are the same orphans who were hanging outside Seventh Heaven, but it isn't enough to explain the closeness they show with Cloud for me.

And then there's the "sister" thing...

I was thinking that maybe Cloud got to know the kids while living at the church. Perhaps the orphanage was around the church. But they seem to be hanging out at Edge more often than not...
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slowerthanaverage
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*somewhat lost*
Lynn
Nov 1 2005, 09:27 AM
I was thinking that maybe Cloud got to know the kids while living at the church. Perhaps the orphanage was around the church. But they seem to be hanging out at Edge more often than not...

:/ Yep..that seems to be the most likely reasoning, for the kids to be that close to Cloud, and Aerith (or maybe they just prefer the cuter pairing :party: )
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Lynn
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Lynn has no Lloud smut ;-;
:lmao: If you look reeeeeeeeally closely, every single one of those kids is representing an SE staff member. SE is showing their pairing preference right there!

Girl-With-Moogle = Nomura.


I kid. :party:

But the weird thing is that the kids are shown hanging around in Edge more often. So unless it's just a quick walk from Sector 5 to Edge, I'm thinking perhaps the orphanage was originally there when Cloud moved to the church, and it was moved later to Edge.
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Prince Roxas
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Just a Nobody
Its pretty strange that Cloti's say that Denzel is Cloud and Tifa's son.

But of course! You can get pregnant, carry the baby and have him grow to about 7-8 years old in only 2 years! :whistle:
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Roseyrosho
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Menace
hahahahahaha those CloTi's are really something :rolleyes:


FF_Goddess
Oct 31 2005, 12:05 AM
"CoT" or "Case of Tifa" is Tifa's story, which takes place between the events of FFVII and AC. Have you had a chance to read it yet?

nope...not yet....where can I find it?
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Shiva
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Legendary Member
Here ya go:

http://xthost.info/ffwebnovel/

Go to the left column and click on "Case of Tifa". You can also read "Case of Denzel" and "Maiden Over the Planet", if you haven't read those already. ^_^
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Lynn
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Lynn has no Lloud smut ;-;
Leon
Nov 4 2005, 01:30 PM
Its pretty strange that Cloti's say that Denzel is Cloud and Tifa's son.

But of course! You can get pregnant, carry the baby and have him grow to about 7-8 years old in only 2 years! :whistle:

:lmao: :lmao:

It never fails to baffle me how even the possibility of Denzel being their son could exist in anyone's minds, Cloti or not. I usually just patiently explain the truth if people ask that question innocently, using Case of Denzel as proof.

But even without that novella, it's painfully obvious that he's too old to be their son!
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Roseyrosho
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Menace
*sigh* I didn't like CoT.....too...CloTi :no: but the end kinda satisfied me a bit ^_^

thanx FF_G :huggle:
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Cetra_Aerith
Nov 9 2005, 10:38 PM
*sigh* I didn't like CoT.....too...CloTi :no: but the end kinda satisfied me a bit ^_^

thanx FF_G :huggle:

Gah, I thought CoT was extremely anti-Cloti! I loved it!

The minute Barret leaves, Cloud and Tifa start getting into one disagreement after another. Cloud starts his own world with the motorbike that Tifa doesn't even know about, and she's disappointed that he won't take a day off. If you ask me, he just started it to get away from her! :lol: He calls the Church "his place", and gives Tifa a dubious look when she asks if he loves her. Tifa keeps calling them "a family", but then she's says that the "family" is just a bunch of friends helping one another. Cloud never calls it a family - just Tifa and Barret. It's made obvious that Cloud has his own room. He doesn't tell Tifa about the motorbike, about delivering things, about the Church, about delivering the bouquet to Aerith's grave, and he leaves without telling her why. There's so much in it that shows how and why Cloud and Tifa will never get along that I consider it even more proof of Cleris. I just loved it! :D
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Roseyrosho
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Menace
lol yeah that's what I meant by the ending...I liked it... what I didn't like was when Cloud & her had this conversation...

Quote:
 
"...I think it will be all right this time."

Cloud became very quiet for a moment. Then he said, "Because you're with me."

"But I've always been with you."

"That's how it will be starting from tomorrow," Cloud replied smiling again.


and also when he hugged her :puke:

lol but afterwards true feelings start showing huh? :angel:

I also didn't like when Tifa said that Aerith had sent Denzel to BOTH of them when Cloud Said that Aerith had sent him to him :mad:

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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Cetra_Aerith
Nov 10 2005, 03:41 PM
lol yeah that's what I meant by the ending...I liked it... what I didn't like was when Cloud & her had this conversation...

Quote:
 
"...I think it will be all right this time."

Cloud became very quiet for a moment. Then he said, "Because you're with me."

"But I've always been with you."

"That's how it will be starting from tomorrow," Cloud replied smiling again.

Hmmm... the translation of Cloud's line changed from the last time I looked at it. However, it doesn't bother me. For one thing, Cloud says he thinks it will be alright this time, so it's quite obvious that Cloud's not at all sure of himself as he says this to Tifa. He could simply mean that he wants to be there as a friend for her, too, rather than anything romantic.

Yes, Cloud is trying to treat Tifa well, but is that so surprising? He probably feels that she deserves it, after all that she's done for him. Tifa helped Cloud when he arrived in Midgar, at Mideel, and while fighting Sephiroth, etc. So Cloud's trying to be there for Tifa as a friend and feeling somewhat obligated to help Tifa get her life in order. I don't think that's strange at all.
 
Plus, Cloud probably has no idea what he should do now that the fighting's over. He has no home to return to, and he needs time to figure things out for himself. In such a situation, Cloud would most likely just "go with the flow" of events around him while figuring things out for himself. Since he has no real goal or direction in mind, Cloud would just go along with whatever his friends are doing while deciding what to do, and Tifa is one of those friends.
 
We also have to remember that the story is being told from Tifa's point of view, not Cloud's. Tifa's perception of Cloud doesn't reliably tell us how Cloud feels. Since Tifa wants a relationship with Cloud, she will basically see what she wants to see.

Very honestly, I see that more as Cloti fanservice from SE than anything. I'd consider it to be more than fanservice IF the story had shown a romantic relationship developing between Cloud and Tifa, but it actually shows their estrangement. Besides, these lines only hint at a possible CloudxTifa relationship without being at all definite. Since the story goes on to show how and why a relationship between Cloud and Tifa actually fails, I would say that SE just wanted to give the Cloti's a dose of fanservice before tearing the relationship apart. :lmao:

Quote:
 
and also when he hugged her  :puke:

When does he hug her? You mean his hand on her shoulder? :unsure: That didn't bother me, either.

Cetra Aerith
 
I also didn't like when Tifa said that Aerith had sent Denzel to BOTH of them when Cloud Said that Aerith had sent him to him  :mad:

I just took that as another sign of their incompatibility. There's lots that Tifa doesn't see in the same way as Cloud, and that really seems to bother her. The names Cloud thinks of for the Seventh Heaven are boring, he doesn't tell Denzel and Marlene enough detail about the places he's been, Cloud doesn't socialize with people, and Cloud doesn't find her jokes funny. Cloud keeps secrets from her, Cloud doesn't share his feelings with her, and Cloud gives her a dubious look when she asks if he loves her. :lmao: There's lots going on in that story that's very anti-Cloti. If anything, CoT reinforces Cleris to me. :wink:
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slowerthanaverage
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*somewhat lost*
Couldn't have said it better myself, Aly.

Quote:
 
"...I think it will be all right this time."

Cloud became very quiet for a moment. Then he said, "Because you're with me."

"But I've always been with you."

"That's how it will be starting from tomorrow," Cloud replied smiling again

To me, Cloud seemed to be painfully trying to put up a hopeful facade at the beginning. You can see his true emotions emerging as the story went on...Cloud wasn't happy at all..he didn't think he was going to be alright at all.

Also , with regards to the above quote, Cloud became very quiet for a moment, and then he spoke words like "Because you're with me" Seemed to me, that line "because you're with me" didn't come naturally to him...he had to ponder, before giving the"correct" reply.

And Tifa's reply was the biggest clue to Cloud's state of mind during the game. tifa said "But I've always been with you" i.e. if Tifa's the reason for Cloud to feel "alright", Cloud should have been alright all along, because she was always with him. Yet, Cloud wasn't. This is the biggest clue that he was merely putting up a facade here, that he didn't feel all right at all, not even when Tifa was with him.


I disagree very much with certain Clotis' claim that Cloud was alright in the beginning (ie not in guilt, not in grief) and was prepared to move on with Tifa until Geostigma hit him. Not at all... This is convenient overlook on Clotis' part.

Quote:
 
and also when he hugged her

He didn't hug her. He put his hands on her shoulder...because Tifa was breaking down. He had to be strong, to support his friend. I didn't see it as romantic either. More importantly, he was struggling to hide his emotions at that moment as well, by pretending to be strong for Tifa.


Quote:
 
I also didn't like when Tifa said that Aerith had sent Denzel to BOTH of them when Cloud Said that Aerith had sent him to him 

This didn't bother me a bit at all, the rabid Cleris in me infact grinned when I read this. I don't so much see it as a sign of incompatibility as Aly did, but rather, it showed how the concept of "Cloud and Aerith" comes naturally to Cloud. When he spotted a ill kid in Aerith's church, Cloud immediately thought Aerith brought the kid to him.
Tifa, on the other hand, was trying to include herself into the equation here. In a way, she desperately wanted to be there for Cloud, be a part of Cloud. But Cloud didn't naturally include Tifa as part of him, unlike how he did for Aerith.

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Rui
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~Clerith Forever~
Ahahaha, I haven't seen or read Case of Tifa yet so I can't really say much.

But now I see that Denzel can't be Cloud and Tifa's (shudders at the thought of it) son. He's WAY too big for a kid who was *supposedly* born two years ago.

Tsh, stupid Cloti's trying to scare me....
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