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Is There A God?
Topic Started: Sep 25 2005, 01:09 AM (5,981 Views)
Raist
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The Bringer of the Black Funeral
AerithR
Sep 30 2005, 03:22 PM














When do you think we will "evolve" those genes for homosexuals to have children?

AerithR, Inuyatta's point is that the formation of the homosexual gene may be evolution BECAUSE they cannot give birth. If there are less members of the populace able to give birth then the population is likely to reduce. I know there is also a connection between fertility and homosexuality. In other words, it seems that mothers that are highly fertile tend to have more homosexual (I understand that this is also the case due to more chances ie more children, but even so the numbers are still higher) children. This again suggests that our species is acting to reduce the population. Why isn't it working? Richard Dawkins wrote a fantastic book called The Selfish Gene. In it he created the word memes and started the memetic movement. It discusses that evolution of culture and that this is an effective way of overcoming the effect of some of our genes and our evolution.

The point, I'm sure, that Inuyatta was trying to make Aerith, is that this evolution is designed to stop birth. So we may evolve back to being able to give birth when our population evens out, which won't be for a very long time. That being said the male half of the species may eventually evolve out. We are coming ever closer to being able to impregnate a woman without a man at all (through certain cell manipulation and cloning), if that is the case, the need for the man may phase out of our race's existence. No one knows that's the point. Evolution does not claim absolute correctness, it adapts according to new evidence and facts. Religion, and it seems especially Christianity, does not.

I know you said that it is just a hypothesis, but I'm just showing that you'll have to change it. ^_^

AerithR I have two problems with that website. Firstly it is from a creationist site, and will be biased. That is simple. Sir DQ was trying to tell you the same thing. It is difficult to find any reliable creationist sources for evolution, because they are so heavily blinded and biased. That site is simply not good evidence. The reason I say that is that it involves conspiracy theories, and as soon as a conspiracy theory has to be brought in you lose all credibility from that source. The majority of the article explain of fake photos and manipulations. Why on earth would scientists do that? Difficult to find a motif, no? Yet it is not hard at all to see why creationists would make up such a thing. And have you spoken to anyone that lives in England about this. I have relatives there who swear that many of the moths in the inner city area are now distinctly grey or black.

Because the Christian God is the only one with the Gospels, the One Who was made from the backbone of most religions. But it says in the Bible that there is only one way to Heaven, and that is through Jesus. :)

I'm sorry I may be missing something here. But how are the gospels any different or better than the Koran (sp?)? Or the Old Testament? How does that make any difference at all? They are all written under the same pretenses. I admit I do not know enough about Hindu to comment, but I presume they too have something similar. And Aerith, Christianity is not the backbone of most religions at all. It sprang from many other religions. Many anthropologists and sociologists will tell you that Christianity's success can be largely attributed to it's flexibility. You can't deny that the religion has changed much over the past two millenium. And AerithR, you can't use the Bible as proof for Christianity's truth, that's called circular reasoning :)

Lastly you still didn't answer one of my questions. Why should I believe in Christ when he did not fulfill all the prophecies of the messiah that was to come in the Old Testament?
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EnglishRose
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which prophecies? :huh:
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Tacofoolio
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We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.
*dies of confusion* I don't know what I believe... Going back a bit, leon commented about it being good to have evidence outside of the bible, and I have to agree that I'd like to see more of it too, because the bible only is useful if you do believe, otherwise why should you accept what the bible says?

Also, how do you know which bible is correct? I was reading that site from earlier, and I'm still confused. *wonders what her Jehovah's Witness In-laws would say too* :/

In general, I'm more inclined to believe in science, but I'm not going to write Christianity off yet, when I feel this unsure.
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Raist
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The Bringer of the Black Funeral
which prophecies?

You'll have to give me a little more time to get the passages, I'll need to talk to a friend who knows them inside out. But the prophecies that Christ did not fulfill are:

1. Bringing World Peace
2. Bringing the Third Temple back to the Earth (I'll have to talk to my friend for clarification on this one, I'm not entirely sure what that is either
3. Bring all the Jews back to Israel.

I've got a feeling there's another on that I'm forgetting as well.

But the point is that those prophecies were set out in the Old Testament, the Messiah would have to fulfill all the prophecies including these to be the messiah. Christ did not, why should I believe in him?
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Holy_Aeris
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Ooooo the Holyness......
Is there a God?? Hmmm me dunno. My brothers always told me he was a banana in the sky, and i'd always look out for the banana.
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summoner_skylar2006
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yes there is a god cause how could people just appear on earth..i mean just think about it someone had to put people on here unless we are all aliens from another planet!!! :angel:
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Miss Yukari
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Fabulously Lazy
summoner_skylar2006
Oct 1 2005, 03:31 PM
yes there is a god cause how could people just appear on earth..i mean just think about it someone had to put people on here unless we are all aliens from another planet!!! :angel:

How did humans get here? That's what Raist, Hyper, Nevi and AerithR have been discussing - evolution.

I did used to believe in some higher power, but not any longer. If there's a God, why do millions of people die of famine in third world countries, why do people suffer through diseases that leave them in such pain? Why do parents rape their children, why is there child abuse and murder? Why do rapists and paedophiles and murderers get away with what they've done and live long, happy lives? Why do good people who have never hurt anyone have terrible things happen to them? Why do children who haven't even had the chance to live life to the fullest die before they get the chance? Why do babies die that haven't even had the chance to be born yet, and their mothers have to go though labour knowing that their child is dead?

No, there isn't a God. He would never allow such things to happen if he could prevent it.
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Nevi
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let us be lovers.
Raist
Sep 29 2005, 04:01 AM
Secondly, I understand that point you make about the wind and the air. That was my point to AerithR. She is telling us that we cannot say evolution exists because we have not seen it. You're actually backing up my argument, thankyou!  :D

Well to me evolution is a load of crap. I have valid reasons too. These aren't well known facts but they are true.

1. Take Darwin, he didn't come up with the theory of evolution. It was something his family believed in. But he went public with it and stirred up the world. Darwin was a hurting man and he blamed it on God.

2. Any person with half a brain knows evolution is a theory. It hasn't been proved and really, has no evidence or written evidence that we can see. Its all speculation but some how it's been taught as fact.

3. The whole ape to monkey thing makes me laugh. How that came about was that a man, I don't remember his name, in the 1940's or some time around then, was on a dig and he found a scull. It looked similar to a human scull and it looked similar to an ape skull. So they jumped to conclusions and said this was one of our ancestors who was evolving! They released that theory to the public and thus man evolved from God created into a flea bitten monkey descendant! Now to you this sounds like hard core evolution evidence, but you are mistaken. When they finally did tests on the scull they found out that it wasn't a missing link at all but a pig scull. Now being SO stubborn they didn't release this to the scientific public until the 60's. So I guess we evolved from pig, to ape, to human, right?
Raist
Oct 1 2005, 10:04 AM
which prophecies?

You'll have to give me a little more time to get the passages, I'll need to talk to a friend who knows them inside out. But the prophecies that Christ did not fulfill are:

1. Bringing World Peace
2. Bringing the Third Temple back to the Earth (I'll have to talk to my friend for clarification on this one, I'm not entirely sure what that is either
3. Bring all the Jews back to Israel.

I've got a feeling there's another on that I'm forgetting as well.

But the point is that those prophecies were set out in the Old Testament, the Messiah would have to fulfill all the prophecies including these to be the messiah. Christ did not, why should I believe in him?


Oh ye of little faith. You have a very BIG misconception there. Just because he didn't do those things the first time didn't mean he isn't going to do them when he comes back. (Not really in the "Rapture." Cause I don't believe in that anymore, because it isn't anywhere in the bible. But I do believe he's coming back, just not in the rapture sense.) And I don't think that it said anywhere in the bible that Jesus would brink "world peace." I don't even think there's such a thing.

Madame Batolli
Oct 1 2005, 03:06 PM
I did used to believe in some higher power, but not any longer. If there's a God, why do millions of people die of famine in third world countries, why do people suffer through diseases that leave them in such pain? Why do parents rape their children, why is there child abuse and murder? Why do rapists and paedophiles and murderers get away with what they've done and live long, happy lives? Why do good people who have never hurt anyone have terrible things happen to them? Why do children who haven't even had the chance to live life to the fullest die before they get the chance? Why do babies die that haven't even had the chance to be born yet, and their mothers have to go though labour knowing that their child is dead?

No, there isn't a God. He would never allow such things to happen if he could prevent it.


People die that's life. It's hard to understand why people suffer but still, it isn't God's fault those things happen. I know it's sad that these things happen but they just do. The world is becoming corrupt but we can change this, we have to believe in God and he'll make a way. We can take food to people in third world countries if you can. Write to your state/country officials and try and put a stop against people who, rape, murder, and abuse by asking to give them 40+ years in prison, without parole. That will stop innocent people from getting hurt. People stop believing in God and they wonder why so many bad things happen. You make the weather, you stand out in it and say, "oh, crap it's raining!"

I don't base my beliefs on what people have told me. I base them on things I've felt and seen.
And anyone who doesn't think there's a God has most likely never seen or felt Him move.
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Inuyatta
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Cloud/Aerith Realist
Dear, I think it's admirable that someone of your age can believe in something so strongly--but it is to your weakness that you blatantly ignore science. Despite what you think about evolution, theory though it is, they still have far more findings pointing in the direction that seems to be coming closer to the truth, no matter how much you want to deny it.

Still, I can understand if you feel threatened by it--it would be why so many creationists are tearing their hair out trying to discredit the findings of many, many tests and experiments. So if it makes you feel better, I won't pursue the point with you any further--we'll simply agree to disagree, ne?

I'm not certain there is a god, for humans tend to be very self-centered--the universe is so vast, why would it all just be about some lifeform on one of it's many, many planets? I do believe there is a higher power we may have not discovered yet though...and with the visions I keep having, it makes me think it 'flows'...whatever 'it' is. I find it fascinating. :lol:
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Rufus ShinRa
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all my family thinks there is a god...

but
1. look at every country..diff god etc...who is right..all I here ppl say is ''you not right we are..''

2.I think ppl think there is a god because they minds cant take the fact that when they die, they die..you go into the ground...nothing more not after life...


3. If there was a god, I dont think its jesus etc...
if there is a god, I think, if you good u go to heaven and bad go somewhere else

I mean, someone that is kind hearted, and would do anything to help anyone(ask my friends I would do anything for anyone if I didnt know them) well go hell....because he didnt believe, he or she, believe in something else...sorry if thats true that one messed up god, send good ppl to hell because what they believe...


4.Im trying to become buddhist again, dont get me wrong..tho..I respect all religions, It there right to belive..but going to a country and saying ''ur religion is wrong and making ppl belive what u belive is sick''

sorry Enlgish is not 2 good XD
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Miss Yukari
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People die that's life. It's hard to understand why people suffer but still, it isn't God's fault those things happen. I know it's sad that these things happen but they just do. The world is becoming corrupt but we can change this, we have to believe in God and he'll make a way. We can take food to people in third world countries if you can. Write to your state/country officials and try and put a stop against people who, rape, murder, and abuse by asking to give them 40+ years in prison, without parole. That will stop innocent people from getting hurt.



I'm not saying it's God's fault, Nevi, I'm saying that if he did indeed exist, would he really want his children to suffer? Wouldn't he perform some kind of miracle to prevent what happened at the World Trade Centre, for example?

Writing to officials to ask them to increase sentences will make no difference - rapists rarely get convicted anyway. <_< And exactly how will increasing sentences stop innocent people from getting hurt? Murderers and paedophiles don't care how long they could be sentenced to, it's not a deterrent.

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People stop believing in God and they wonder why so many bad things happen. You make the weather, you stand out in it and say, "oh, crap it's raining!"


So you're saying that when bad things happen to people, it's their own fault for not believing in God? That's really quite insensitive of you. 'Oh, you wouldn't have been raped if you'd believed in God' 'Your baby wouldn't have died inside you if only you were religious' Please, give me a break.

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I don't base my beliefs on what people have told me. I base them on things I've felt and seen.
And anyone who doesn't think there's a God has most likely never seen or felt Him move.


Fair enough. I haven't seen God or felt him move. But can you really be 100% sure that it was God you felt or saw?

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I mean, someone that is kind hearted, and would do anything to help anyone(ask my friends I would do anything for anyone if I didnt know them) well go hell....because he didnt believe, he or she, believe in something else...sorry if thats true that one messed up god, send good ppl to hell because what they believe...


I completely agree with this, SE.
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EnglishRose
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Raist
 
1. Bringing World Peace
2. Bringing the Third Temple back to the Earth (I'll have to talk to my friend for clarification on this one, I'm not entirely sure what that is either
3. Bring all the Jews back to Israel.


Let me just clarify, who said these prophecies would be fulfilled in your lifetime, huh?? These things are going to happen, maybe not now, but with the way the world is going, and people rejecting Him, these are the last days. -_- But I don't know when God is coming, be I guess it will be soon.

Madame Batolli
 
did used to believe in some higher power, but not any longer. If there's a God, why do millions of people die of famine in third world countries, why do people suffer through diseases that leave them in such pain? Why do parents rape their children, why is there child abuse and murder? Why do rapists and paedophiles and murderers get away with what they've done and live long, happy lives? Why do good people who have never hurt anyone have terrible things happen to them? Why do children who haven't even had the chance to live life to the fullest die before they get the chance? Why do babies die that haven't even had the chance to be born yet, and their mothers have to go though labour knowing that their child is dead?


"All things come together for good", and the reason these bad things happen, is because of sin, and by turning from God for things that are not His fault, to me, that is... not sensible. :ermm: Life isn't fair, and until God comes back, it's gonna stay that way. -_-


Inuyatta
 
Dear, I think it's admirable that someone of your age can believe in something so strongly--but it is to your weakness that you blatantly ignore science.


Science is only counted if it is counted as a scientific law, if a solution to a scientific problem passes all tests and theories placed upon it.

Has Evolution gone through all these tests? As Nevi said, evolution was just a theory, and with the help if man's imperfect mind, it escalated into "fact". Not all evidence is proven to be right.

Madame Batolli
 
So you're saying that when bad things happen to people, it's their own fault for not believing in God? That's really quite insensitive of you. 'Oh, you wouldn't have been raped if you'd believed in God' 'Your baby wouldn't have died inside you if only you were religious' Please, give me a break.


Can you give God a break? Even a chance? At least if you believed God, and you trusted Him, he would bless you. ^_^ Even Christians get hurt, and killed for their beliefs. -_-
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Miss Yukari
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Fabulously Lazy
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"All things come together for good", and the reason these bad things happen, is because of sin, and by turning from God for things that are not His fault, to me, that is... not sensible.   Life isn't fair, and until God comes back, it's gonna stay that way.


I might think it's not sensible to force myself to believe in a God that I have no faith in. Maybe they aren't God's fault, but you would think that if he was so perfect and loving of his children, he would do something to stop things like the WTC. Are you saying that people who have never sinned are murdered, raped, abused and so on because of the sins of others? Would God really allow these things to happen to his innocent children?

Quote:
 
Can you give God a break? Even a chance?


Can you give Allah, or Buddha, or evolution a chance, AerithR?

Quote:
 
At least if you believed God, and you trusted Him, he would bless you.  Even Christians get hurt, and killed for their beliefs.


I'm not saying that Christians don't get hurt or killed, I was responding to Nevi's point that people stop believing in God and wonder why bad things happen to them and others.
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Mrs.Loz
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Pathetic lowlife
God isn't going to make my life any better. Only I can do that.
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Raist
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The Bringer of the Black Funeral
I'm going to apologise in advance to both Nevi and AerithR for anything I type in this reply that may offend either of you. But the last few posts have sincerely rankled my feathers and I need to let some steam off in this debate. Afterwards I think I may take Inuyatta's position and simply stay out of this, but for now...



Well to me evolution is a load of crap. I have valid reasons too. These aren't well known facts but they are true.

1. Take Darwin, he didn't come up with the theory of evolution. It was something his family believed in. But he went public with it and stirred up the world. Darwin was a hurting man and he blamed it on God.

2. Any person with half a brain knows evolution is a theory. It hasn't been proved and really, has no evidence or written evidence that we can see. Its all speculation but some how it's been taught as fact.

3. The whole ape to monkey thing makes me laugh. How that came about was that a man, I don't remember his name, in the 1940's or some time around then, was on a dig and he found a scull. It looked similar to a human scull and it looked similar to an ape skull. So they jumped to conclusions and said this was one of our ancestors who was evolving! They released that theory to the public and thus man evolved from God created into a flea bitten monkey descendant! Now to you this sounds like hard core evolution evidence, but you are mistaken. When they finally did tests on the scull they found out that it wasn't a missing link at all but a pig scull. Now being SO stubborn they didn't release this to the scientific public until the 60's. So I guess we evolved from pig, to ape, to human, right?


Nevi, where did you get this information from? It sounds like a creationist source. Darwin may have had his problems and may have had his problems with God, but that does not make his initial work and thoughts baseless. Secondly, no scientist today will tell you that Darwin was right. But he put the motions in place to further understand our existence. His theory had to be modified (as did the theories of the atom, of thermodynamics and of gravity and relativity, and indeed still do), and your claim of his family belief is completely and utterly baseless, and more importantly ridiculous creationist debate.

The theory about human evolution specifically came from several such digs as you have suggested. And it is certainly true that there have been cases of what you mentioned happening. There have been times where we've thought we've found links in our chain of evolution only to find out we have been wrong. But there have been countless other finds that have been found with such experimentation and evidence as to give very concrete proof to the theory of evolution and to our lineage. I have to ask you Nevi, how can you explain the existence of culture in some primape species other than our own?

Oh ye of little faith. You have a very BIG misconception there. Just because he didn't do those things the first time didn't mean he isn't going to do them when he comes back. (Not really in the "Rapture." Cause I don't believe in that anymore, because it isn't anywhere in the bible. But I do believe he's coming back, just not in the rapture sense.) And I don't think that it said anywhere in the bible that Jesus would brink "world peace." I don't even think there's such a thing.

Please don't ever call me 'of little faith' again Nevi. I find it incredibly insulting. My lack of faith in the Christian god does not mean I have little faith.

The messiah that was prophesised in the Old Testament was supposed to come but once. And that is all. A second coming of the messiah is not described and is not supposed to happen. Christ is not the messiah set out in the Old Testament. Regardless of what he may have done.

You may be right about the world peace bit, though I'm fairly sure that was there. I still have to get in contact with my friend who is far more knowledgeable than I am on this particular issue.



People die that's life. It's hard to understand why people suffer but still, it isn't God's fault those things happen. I know it's sad that these things happen but they just do. The world is becoming corrupt but we can change this, we have to believe in God and he'll make a way. We can take food to people in third world countries if you can. Write to your state/country officials and try and put a stop against people who, rape, murder, and abuse by asking to give them 40+ years in prison, without parole. That will stop innocent people from getting hurt. People stop believing in God and they wonder why so many bad things happen. You make the weather, you stand out in it and say, "oh, crap it's raining!"

You are missing Madame's point. If your God is the creator of all then he must have created sin. How can God be perfect if he created sin, the sin that is supposed to be our doom? That is imperfection in itself. Secondly if by some form of impossible logic he didn't, then why does a perfect God who loves us all allow these things to happen? That is not perfection. And I always find it incredibly hypocritical that we are supposed to turn to God to create a better world. What were the Muslims who were being murdered by the thousands at the hands of Christians during the crusades supposed to do?

To say that God gives us bad tidings because we do not worship him only shows that he is no better then the emperors, kings and czars of old. We do not bring bad tidings down upon us, intentionally, at any time. And what you have there is called perception Niva. You can decide how you feel about the event of rain to a certain extent, that is once again something exclusive of God.



I don't base my beliefs on what people have told me. I base them on things I've felt and seen.
And anyone who doesn't think there's a God has most likely never seen or felt Him move.


Are you willing to tell me that the Muslims of Iraq and Iran have never seen God move? I am sure they believe in Allah as strongly as you believe in your God. I am not arguing the existance of any God here. But not believing in your Christian ideals does not many I or anyone else has not felt God move. It is exclusive and elitist, as much organised religion seems to be.

Let me just clarify, who said these prophecies would be fulfilled in your lifetime, huh?? These things are going to happen, maybe not now, but with the way the world is going, and people rejecting Him, these are the last days. sleep.gif But I don't know when God is coming, be I guess it will be soon.

As I said above AerithR, there is no second coming of the Messiah. The Old Testament said there would be one, once, Christ is not that messiah. Why is your god correct? Why is he any more correct than Allah, Ginesh (sp?) Or anyone else? And lastly who are you to judge when will be the last days? Terror and immorality have reined at all times of existence in many places all over the world, so why is today suddenly the time of judgement? This once again feels like the fearmongering of Christianity that has been so successful in its sustenation for 2000 years.

"All things come together for good", and the reason these bad things happen, is because of sin, and by turning from God for things that are not His fault, to me, that is... not sensible. ermm.gif Life isn't fair, and until God comes back, it's gonna stay that way. sleep.gif


Can you understand the logic that the perfect God (that you believe is your Christian god) would not need bad things to happen for all things to come together for good. They would simply be right and good and just. Ever since God created the world life has been unjust. As I've said many times before, why would the perfect being create the imperfect sin? It is an impossibility.



Science is only counted if it is counted as a scientific law, if a solution to a scientific problem passes all tests and theories placed upon it.

Has Evolution gone through all these tests? As Nevi said, evolution was just a theory, and with the help if man's imperfect mind, it escalated into "fact". Not all evidence is proven to be right.


There are no scientific laws. Even the so called "laws" of thermodynamics and Newton's "laws" of motion are not that. They were misnamed in a time of inadequate analysis and have only not been changed to theories as a matter of convenience. I have mentioned this before but it again seems that you've chosen not to listen.

In science everything is a theory. Every observation is added to others and logical conclusions are formulated to attempt to answer these problems. It is generally considered that atoms exist, but it still an theory. In time it may be proven wrong, but the evidence for the theory is so overwhelming that it is essentially regarded as fact. This however does not mean that the theory is not changed and adapted with time. As new evidence is found the theory has to be adjusted accordingly. Evolution is no different and yes it has been subjected to the tests and questions of scientists and laymen alike. It is still not as solid as the theories of motion and chemistry that we have, but it is certainly becoming more and more trustworthy each day. Evolution is a theory like any other, it will be and has been adapted over time.

This is the problem with religion. Science is open minded. It is willing to adapt over time. Christianity, while it has adapted to an extent, is so close minded that it does not allow for any alterior opinion nor belief. Look what happened to Galileo. Being someone who values new ideas, concepts and possibilities, this makes me very angry.

Can you give God a break? Even a chance? At least if you believed God, and you trusted Him, he would bless you. happy.gif Even Christians get hurt, and killed for their beliefs. sleep.gif

Why is your God better than any other? Why is He the one and not the others. I do have my own spiritual beliefs and I have researched the role of Christianity and its God as well as Allah and others (not all and not as extensively as I still need to delve), but at the very least I can admit that I have attempted to find and understand these deities. I have been satisfied with none of them, and have developed my own beliefs in regards to what I have felt. I can feel and see spirituality as much as you and Niva, but I am not doing so at the exclusion of logic. Your last comment is only further proof, IMO, of your God's imperfection.

I agree with Inuyatta. What I have felt is some form of force or existence that is not physical, but spiritual. And seems to be the general ebb and flow of our and other's existence. It is not something easy to explain, but it is not a God or some other entitiy, it is just a flow of life, in a sense.

Lastly, why did the universe have to be created? Is it impossible to consider that it may simply have always been? An existence of infinity? It is a possibility I have been warming to of late.

I will once again apologise for anything offensive said in the heat of the moment.
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