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| Is There A God? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 25 2005, 01:09 AM (5,975 Views) | |
| Simplicity | Nov 10 2005, 03:31 AM Post #151 |
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Hyper-Ballad:
Yeah, but He created an angel who can make his own decision. In other words, he gave us a free will. Lucifer basically became evil on his own. What God makes is perfect and good, it's just that it's so good that people use their minds, think wrongly, and corrupt it. |
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| Raist | Nov 10 2005, 07:34 AM Post #152 |
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The Bringer of the Black Funeral
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Hyper-Ballad Thanks for keeping up the work while I was gone. It means a lot. Damn I just finished replying to your post in the abortion thread, it feels good to be on the same side again ...and then we launch into something about free will vs. determinism. laugh.gif Please don't say that Hyper, PLEASE IF YOU HAVE ANY MERCY AT ALL DON'T SAY THAT! Simplicity Yeah, but He created an angel who can make his own decision. In other words, he gave us a free will. Lucifer basically became evil on his own. What God makes is perfect and good, it's just that it's so good that people use their minds, think wrongly, and corrupt it. I understand that Simplicity, but do you agree that God is omnipotent, that he knows all that is to come? If so, then he knew that Satan would turn down that path. Yes it is true that Satan chose that path with his free will. I do not deny that. But God still knowingly created him and thus sin. It may have been a result of free will but god still indirectly created sin. Would a perfect god do that? I'm going to post a small section of one of William Rowe's arguments against the perfection of God. It's well thought and well drafted. Something for everyone to think about. Consider the idea of God in classical philosophical theology. God is a personal being perfect in every way: absolutely independent of everything, such that nothing exists apart from God's willing it to be so; unlimited in power and knowledge; perfectly blissful, lacking in nothing needed or desired; morally perfect. If such a being were to create, on what basis would He choose? Let us assume (as perfect-being theologians generally do) that there is an objective, degreed property of intrinsic goodness, such that every possible object is intrinsically good to some degree. We need not assume that this property is 'well ordered' in the sense that every object is comparable to every other, only that it is 'partially ordered' in the sense that every object belongs to one or another well-ordered set of objects and has less goodness than God Himself. We thus replace the image of a linear 'great chain of being' with that of a branching structure whose branches reconnect only at their limit, which is God. And let us further suppose that whole systems of objects and their total histories -- possible worlds -- are likewise partially ordered by their intrinsic goodness. Now, if one or more of these creative options on each of the branches are of maximal overall value, is it inevitable that He would choose one of those? It seems passing strange that God would opt for less than the best when creating the best involves no cost at all. Yet supposing the choice of the best is inevitable for a perfect Creator seems at odds with the common assumption that God is perfectly free in choosing what He will. Perhaps, though, there is no set of one or more best creative choices. For every option, there is a better, with no finite upper bound on the ranked series. Here, matters are more puzzling. It appears that no matter which option God might choose, He must do so in the knowledge that there are options of arbitrarily greater value. It seems an odd constraint for a perfect being to have to live with. And while we engage in such musings, we might wonder why, given his supreme perfection and contentedness, God would create anything at all? Such puzzles are the focus of William Rowe's Can God Be Free? While considering a variety of wrinkles along the way from both historical and contemporary philosophers, Rowe maintains throughout that a simple line of reflection remains compelling. Its conclusion is that a perfect Creator cannot but choose the best. Therefore, the theist must either suppose (implausibly) that there is a best of all possible worlds, one that has been unfreely selected by God, or abandon the claim that there is a perfect Creator. Sorry about the wall of text
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| Simplicity | Nov 11 2005, 02:32 AM Post #153 |
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Well, yes, God probably knew that Lucifer would become evil, but being God, He also knew that there are more than one path to chose from. God made him knowing that there will be a chance that he may become evil, but also a chance that he'll chose to stay good. God wanted him to see the good and be good, on his own free will. Unfortunately, Lucifer didn't think that way. Edit: Ah gosh! i have this stupid problem where i glance at the word and i read it something completely different!! argh! so sorry Raist!! And thanks HB, for telling me! :) |
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| Hyper-Ballad | Nov 11 2005, 03:10 AM Post #154 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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Er, Simplicity? You're gotten Raist's name wrong again. ![]() I think he'd appreciate it if you'd edit your post and not call him...that. ![]() Edit: No problem!
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| Raist | Nov 11 2005, 07:09 AM Post #155 |
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The Bringer of the Black Funeral
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Simplicity Well, yes, God probably knew that Lucifer would become evil, but being God, He also knew that there are more than one path to chose from. God made him knowing that there will be a chance that he may become evil, but also a chance that he'll chose to stay good. God wanted him to see the good and be good, on his own free will. Unfortunately, Lucifer didn't think that way. *sigh* Yes Seeker quite rightly brought up that point as well. I won't take the determinist argument of this just yet, firstly because I don't entirely agree with it and secondly because it opens up a world of debating torment. However do you still agree that God created the possibility for sin? This is a point that Seeker and I have been debating. Does the possibility of an imperfect creation imply an imperfect creator? By the way what do you think of William Rowe's thoughts in my last post? Oh and thankyou for changing my name I now feel like my good old unprejudiced self again. Hyper-Ballad Thanks for putting the word in for me HB. Now I don't run the risk of being labelled as Hitler. |
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| Simplicity | Nov 11 2005, 10:01 PM Post #156 |
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I can be such a dunce sometimes..@_@ No, i don't believe God created sin. I dont think an imperfect creation means an imperfect creator. As a comparision, think of a parent and a child. The parent always teaches the child all the good values. But the child never listens, and does the opposite. So therefore, God always teaches us good things but we don't listen, since we can choose not to. (althought i can't really compare God to our society.. :P, but God is a Father to us, so i guess it's ok. :) ) And about William Rowe's thoughts...i'm not sure what it exactly says, but to put in simple terms, i think the passage says that if God created good things, He has to choose the better one right? (correct me if i am wrong, thanks!) I think God doesn't need to choose who or what is better. He created us, after all, so no one in His eyes are better than another. We weight all the same in His heart. He gives each of us special talents and roles, which we have to find out. I don't think this means that He's being selective, it just suits our personality or something. As i don't know what God's purpose is for each of us, so i can't really say much about why we are like this, or why something happened, etc. |
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| Nevi | Nov 14 2005, 01:55 AM Post #157 |
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let us be lovers.
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I'm confused again...
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| Simplicity | Nov 14 2005, 10:08 PM Post #158 |
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May i ask, about what? :) |
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| Nevi | Nov 17 2005, 04:01 AM Post #159 |
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let us be lovers.
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People keep posting so much while I'm gone! :wacko: I'm totally lost! |
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| Simplicity | Nov 17 2005, 09:25 PM Post #160 |
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oh, i c...for me, i would be confused since i'm too lazy to go back and read lol. :lol: |
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| kaitoufion | Nov 22 2005, 01:59 AM Post #161 |
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Newbie
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Well...... I am not against God or anything like that but I also don't really believe that God exist. If what I am going to say offend anybody, please understand that I don't mean it and I am just expressing what I think. No offence. Although I cannot explain why there are actually such things as trees and water and stuff and how they are created, I just cannot come to the conclusion that they were created by God. On the good side, there are trees and plants; however on the other hand, there are viruses and sickness like SARS and bird-flu. First let's talk about the good things like trees and plants. In early times there were dinosaurs. But then they all disappearred. Why that happened? Because scientists researched and investigated that it was because of aerolites and rocks crashing down onto Earth from outer space. Virus then was created, dinosaurs all died. That IS evident. But about trees and plants, all people say is God created them but they could never provide any evidence. All they say is God created them. But with no real evidence on how. What I seek isn't much, just some evidence. From the bad things about viruses and such. If God really does exist, why would it create sicknesses like SARS? Half of my family believe in God so I have actually seen some videos on God, and one of them was about SARS and why God created SARS. In the video, it says that God created SARS because it wants to prove and show that human, especially doctors, are strong and won't give up easily. However what I think is, just wanting to prove human are strong require God to create such a virus and sacrifice so many people? Isn't that just a bit too much? Apart from what's written in the Bible, no one seems to have actually seen God in their lives. All they could feel is God talking to their mind, in which everyone also have never heard his voice. Like they don't know whether his voice has a high or low pitch or anything like that. They just declare that they could hear it. With no evidence proven that God exist apart from the Bible, this is one of the reasons why I could not come to believe that God exist. These are just some of the points that can't make me believe that God exists. Again, these are just what I think. I hold no offence to and against anybody. I am also not saying that people who believe in God are wrong. I am just trying to point out why I just can't come to believe that there is a God. |
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| Simplicity | Nov 22 2005, 02:11 AM Post #162 |
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I don't really think god created Sars, but humans did. that virus never use to affect humans, it evolved into something else that could affect humans..and who knows why it evolved. @_@ Also, you don't need to physically see or hear God, you can simply feel His presence, but of course that isnt enough evidence that He exist right? Besides, God isn't limited to the capacity of the human mind or how humans think; it doesn't matter whether His voice is high or low, He can change it anytime! If you truly want to hear God, you have to be patient, wait silently, and have a peaceful mind. |
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| Hyper-Ballad | Nov 22 2005, 05:18 PM Post #163 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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Humans did not create SARS, Simplicity. You could possibly argue that humans were responsible for the conditions that developed the virus, but humans are not directly responsible, as no-one deliberately engineered the virus. It developed of its own accord. Or rather, you could say that either it developed of its own accord, or that God created it and allowed it to develop. And besides, even if humans are responsible for SARS, it doesn't mean that God also isn't responsible for the deaths...after all, couldn't He intervene and stop the virus from developing and spreading if it was His will? Regardless of whether or not God is responsible for SARS, kaitoufion's point still stands because in doing nothing, God is still allowing His children to be sacrificed. -_- As for mystical presences, I've felt connected to something greater and felt forces move in nature many times...but I don't see any reason why that points to a God, much less the Christian God.
No problem, Raist. As you can probably tell, life's been doing its best to keep me away from this forum, so now I'm going to have a lot of catching-up to do...
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| Simplicity | Nov 24 2005, 12:17 AM Post #164 |
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Well, yeah thats kinda what i meant...@_@ sorry for the confusion.
I don't know about that heavy word, sacrifice, and i dont know why sars or illnesses develop but i know it's all for a good reason. Also, God doesn't sacrifice His children, He welcomes them to heaven. All of this must have a purpose anyways.
I don't know if you can feel the presence of other gods, as i don't believe in them. But i do know that God exists, and God is not only in the Christian faith, He's also the God of Musliums, Catholics, Protestants, etc. These related religions all have the same God, just different traditions. also, i can't really say it was God that was in your presence or whatever because i'm not you, but if it is God, then you will know yourself. |
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| Aprillis | Dec 6 2005, 11:33 AM Post #165 |
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DoS King
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I was skimming through this thread, and I was thinking "why must this debate be between Christianity and atheists only?" This topic is about believing in god and in this world, religion are aplenty. God doesn't just mean the Holy Trinity. In fact, there's Allah, Hindu gods, Buddha and other religions such as Wicca, Polytheism and such. Being a Muslim, I have my own reasons in believing in god. Personally, I believe that the world is just as a temporary place before I actually reach my final destination. A perfect analogy is that of a wanderer driving on a long stretch of highway. He stops by a petrol station to fill up his fuel and buys whatever supplies he needs, because he doesn't know how long the trip will take. But he needs those supplies and fuel for him to get to his destination. For me, that is just like collecting 'pahala' (good deeds) for me to get accepted into heaven. In my religion, it is our belief that Allah created us to be 'tested', as in how deep our faith for him will go. It doesn't mean that we must be in a prayer for 24/7, but to at least acknowledge him will earn us a spot in heaven, although much later than the deep faiths(?). We have to go to hell first and after all our sin is cleansed, we will be transported to heaven. And we also believe in the apocalypse or the end of the world. The signs foretelling us the end of the world is listed in the Quran. For example, there will come one day that woman will start to overpopulate/dominate the world, and there will be a scarcity of men. Not that it's anything sexist, it's only a fact. Another is that disasters will befall the world on a regular basis. The 'serious' signs are that: 1. Majority of the people will stop believing in god 2. 'Dajal' (a monster) will appear on the earth to try to deviate the believers into becoming non-believers 3. A monster who is currently asleep in the centre of the earth will will awaken and cause havoc on the world. 4. Isa (or Jesus in Christianity standards) will be sent down to earth by Allah to help the believers from the evils of Dajal. Then finally.... 5. A trumpet will be blown by Israfael (an angel) and everything will die. Satan and his followers, the angels, humans, earth, the universe.... everything. By the way, I stated this down for a fun fact. I betcha you didn't know about these stuff about Islam. Like Zhakeena said; I won't shove this down your throats. This is what *I* believe, not anybody else. |
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(correct me if i am wrong, thanks!)
All of this must have a purpose anyways. 

2:08 PM Jul 11