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Is There A God?
Topic Started: Sep 25 2005, 01:09 AM (5,976 Views)
Granleon
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I would like to add that the origin of an idea is largely irrelevant to the validity of an idea. If a concept can be tested, then the concept's own merits will be what decides its fate. The person who originated the idea is largely irrelevant to the exploration of the idea (unless he or she holds a patent and refuses to let anyone else study it).

EDIT: Whoops! If anyone is wondering, Raist actually has a much lengthier response on the previous page (last post). I just wanted to add a tiny point (hence, this post).
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Nevi
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let us be lovers.
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Nevi, you don't seem to get it. You can't simply shake off an argument and say your respect them but disagree with them in a debate. If you do that you've accepted that you've lost. You have to present why you disagree with it. This is a debate for crying out loud

It's hard to explain the perfection of God. Anything that I would have said you would say, "that is a statement of faith." But a relationship of the Lord is not based completely on "faith" but on trust as well. One must learn to trust his or her father, for he knows best, he is perfect. It's hard to explain so I decided I should hold my tongue for fear of explaining it wrong.

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*sigh*
1. There will be a much, much, higher ratio of success between half brothers and sisters due to significantly different gene pools. The two children have three wholly different gene pools to draw from when they have their children and it is obviously far more likely for their children to be fine. In fact (don't quote me on this, it's all speculation) they may be 3 times more likely to have healthy children than actual sisters and brothers having children. In that situation there is only one pool to draw from and as I've said before the chances of a healthy child in this situation at any point in history is incredibly small. It can happen, but not often.

But it did happen often, if documents serve true.

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2. The document has not been proven as a valid historical document. There are certainly elements of truth within it (particularly in the New Testament, which I'll admit is near entirely true), but the Old Testament is also filled with many events that are sure not to have happened, or did not happen to the extent to which they are written. The flood for example. The Bible was not the first document to show a great flood plaging the lands. But it did not cover the whole Earth. The Epic of Gilgamesh wrote about the Flood long before the Bible did. So you can see that the example of Abraham and Sarah is woefully unreliable, particularly in consideration that it is a part of Genesis. The section speaking of humans who were older than any human has lived and the direct speech with God and the allowing of Sarah to get pregnant also speak of myth, as I have mentioned before.

There are many different stories and legends about the flood besides the Epic Of Gilgamesh. But most of these involved great battles between Gods and Goddesses causing rain to pour and so on. But that doesn't sound very logical to me.

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Ok, I just took a quick look at a few synopses of the "Annals of the World" and I am not at all convinced. Ussher certainly seems to be a brilliant scholar but his work is based upon conclusions once again. I don't doubt that his dates are impeccable. I do believe that his document of history and of time are, if not correct, very near so but as I said above, they do not prove that any of the events he speaks of happened. They only suggest a time pattern for them, or some of them at least. The world is over a billion years old, so his mention of the time of creation is incorrect. He makes some claims about the Bible's occurences and puts them in place of time, but that in no way proves they happened. Ussher wasn't out to prove these events - he already believed - he was creating a time scale for them. So no Nevi, the "Annals of the World" does not prove that any of the events in the Bible occurred.

Is there any written proof that the world is over a billion years old? I mean besides text books and theology.

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You may be right, though I seem to recall something stemming from China and/or Egypt before this. Not to mention the Epic of Gilgamesh, which I'll admit is not entirely historical, was certainly written before the Bible.

What time was the tale of Gilgamesh written?

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WTF? That is quite seriously about all I have to say. WTF? Natural selection was Darwin's theory. Evolution is the now constantly evolving theory of the Earth's passage of life. The two now have little in common. So firstly you're attacking the wrong person and the wrong document. Evolution is now concerned with the facts and not the conclusion and can't be said to be in the same vain as creationist sources, so no, you are wrong. Secondly, even Darwin's work is less biased by circular reasoning than creationist information, so that's also negated. And lastly, just because I know everyone who is reading this post is thinking it, Greek Mythology? WTF?You have to explain that one.

Hold on, give me a minute. I didn't have time to explain so I'll explain now.
In greek mythology, the God made life from the sea. The life evolved and became man and the Gods ruled over the men and more Gods evolved from the sea.
I'm not sure if this is accurate because It's been a while since I've studied greek mythology.
And Darwin's family believed evolution too. His grandfather I think, or it might have been his father had a sign on his buggy that said, "All things come from the sea, and all things return."
Or something along those lines.


And I have a question. Who really wants to be just some product of chance. Why would anyone want to think that their life is just some big accident that happened billions of years ago. That gives life no meaning. But I know that I am no mistake.
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Simplicity
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o_O
I did not read the whole topic, and i do not know what some of the contents in it were, but i do know that, I believe in God. How do i know He exists? Because i can feel His presence in my everyday life. Everyone is always looking for a logical way to explain if God exists or not. The thing is, you can't! God is God, He can supass science and logic! You can't say that He does not exist! Well..ok, maybe everyone has a different opinion, but you can't explain something like a miracle.

I do respect people and their opinions, so i respect every religion that is morally good. (eg. Musilum, Hindu, etc.) I also try to understand every religion; i am eager to learn about them. People might ask, "As a Catholic, why are you interested in learning about other people's religions?" This is because, if it's something you believe, there must be a good reason to it. I even listen to why some people think there is no God. I know that, in order to love others, you must understand them, not hate them because they have different values from yourself. If you learn from others, you can understand more of yourself, and become more whole.

But, i also do not force my values and beliefs on others. If i do, i know i will drive them away. So i take it slowly. Knowing God is just the same as knowing a friend. You can't become friends with someone you just met right? That's the same with God. If someone asks me about God, i will gladly tell them. I don't like people who just preach and preach and drive others away, as a result.

So for those who believe in God, good for us! :)
And for those that don't, i'm sure you have your reasons, but i hope that someday you will meet Him.
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Raist
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The Bringer of the Black Funeral
Granleon

I would like to add that the origin of an idea is largely irrelevant to the validity of an idea. If a concept can be tested, then the concept's own merits will be what decides its fate. The person who originated the idea is largely irrelevant to the exploration of the idea (unless he or she holds a patent and refuses to let anyone else study it).

Agreed. But what if the idea is seemingly impossible or difficult to test? In many cases it may just be a matter of time, but some things seemingly can't be tested, or atleast not satisfactorily to everyone's desires. In such situations would you agree that the origin of the idea has some relevance to it's validity?

Nevi

It's hard to explain the perfection of God. Anything that I would have said you would say, "that is a statement of faith." But a relationship of the Lord is not based completely on "faith" but on trust as well. One must learn to trust his or her father, for he knows best, he is perfect. It's hard to explain so I decided I should hold my tongue for fear of explaining it wrong.

I understand your point and I respect it. But I would ask that regardless of your fear for describing such a thing incorrectly that you do so anyway.

Trust is inherent in faith. I can't have faith in anything I don't trust. You can have faith in His perfection but such a superior being can surely create such a thing. That doesn't make him perfect.

This is somewhat more directed to Seeker but anyway, must a perfect being be perfect across all possible worlds to be considered perfect? Or is perfection a concept outside of the possibility of human understanding?

But it did happen often, if documents serve true.

Nevi, you said in your last post that it was common for half brothers and sisters to have healthy children in egyptian times. I said yes that is likely, as the chances of mutation are for lower with three genetic strains.

However it is NOT POSSIBLE for similar events to occur between blood brothers and sisters. This simple fact of DNA has not changed.

There are many different stories and legends about the flood besides the Epic Of Gilgamesh. But most of these involved great battles between Gods and Goddesses causing rain to pour and so on. But that doesn't sound very logical to me.

Indeed they did and most of the documents are fictional entailings of the flood. The Epic of Gilgamesh is the same. However what they do represent is that a great flood occurred at some point. But none of these suggest that it covered the entire world, because it didn't as geological proofs show. I'm not saying a flood didn't occur, just not the exact flood mentioned in the Bible.

Is there any written proof that the world is over a billion years old? I mean besides text books and theology

That statement is contradictory. The Bible is a text book and theology and you base your argument from that. But there is quite obviously no written document suggesting this as for much of that time humans didn't exist.

If you wish to deny the evidence of Strontium dating then you are simply choosing to be ignorant. Strontium dating can be empirically tested and is far more accurate than a document only a few thousand years old.

What time was the tale of Gilgamesh written?

It is labelled as the oldest written document that man currently has access to. I'll need to check up on the actual dates though. I've noticed it is difficult to find a starting point for the writing of the Old Testament.



And Darwin's family believed evolution too.

I see where you're coming from with the Greek mythology now. BUt you need to understand something about evolution. Darwin's family may have believed in this Greek ideal. Darwin himself looked for some kind of scientific proof for it and found it in his theory of natural selection. That theory is unreliable, unaccurate, outdated and essentially terrible. And before you ask it was made with some kind of circular reasoing involved, it does seem he had his conclusion in mind before conceiving the theory.

However, that does not deny the validity of the current theory. Evolution is not the same as Darwin's natural selection and has not been, essentially, since the theory was formed. It is now a scientific field backed up by proofs and empirical evidence that can be considered very accurate and very reliable. It is not complete and not perfect, but you can't continue to relate Darwin's apparent bias to the current theory of evolution.

And I have a question. Who really wants to be just some product of chance. Why would anyone want to think that their life is just some big accident that happened billions of years ago. That gives life no meaning. But I know that I am no mistake.

Who ever said I didn't believe in a god? I'm currently unsure but that is not entirely the point here. Reality is not a matter of what we want it to be, atleast not entirely. It simply is. If we were the product of chance do we have any choice over that? Does it deny reality? Life may have no meaning, nihilists have suggested this for over a century. Having no meaning does not make us a mistake, nor does it mean life should not be lived. The human race does not need a god to survive, or so I believe. If I am the product of chance then I accept such a fate gladly, because I will not force myself to believe in something I feel doesn't exist.

I know you have faith in the existence of God Nevi, but so do athiests have faith in his non-existance. They don't just argue with logic or facts, they have faith as strong as yours that He doesn't exist.



Simplicity

Because i can feel His presence in my everyday life. Everyone is always looking for a logical way to explain if God exists or not. The thing is, you can't! God is God, He can supass science and logic! You can't say that He does not exist! Well..ok, maybe everyone has a different opinion, but you can't explain something like a miracle.

Not entirely Simplicity. As I said to Nevi above, I know many athiests believe in His non-existance as strongly as you have faith in His existence. You can certainly say that he surpasses science and logic, but that doesn't prove His non-existance nor His existance. What we give are the reasons for our disbelief which are met with your reasons for belief. I know these debates will go nowhere, but they help me better understand my world and my beliefs. Plus it's a whole lot of fun :D

If you learn from others, you can understand more of yourself, and become more whole.

I couldn't agree more. But we don't have to adhere to the same faith or non-faith to have that same appreciation. There are jerks on either side of the debate, but that doesn't label either group as a whole.

So for those who believe in God, good for us! smile.gif
And for those that don't, i'm sure you have your reasons, but i hope that someday you will meet Him.


And rather than hope you come over to the athiestic point of view I only hope you find happiness and content in your belief.
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Simplicity
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o_O
Raist:
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Not entirely Simplicity. As I said to Nevi above, I know many athiests believe in His non-existance as strongly as you have faith in His existence. You can certainly say that he surpasses science and logic, but that doesn't prove His non-existance nor His existance. What we give are the reasons for our disbelief which are met with your reasons for belief. I know these debates will go nowhere, but they help me better understand my world and my beliefs. Plus it's a whole lot of fun


Yes, it is fun because well..i dunno..i love debates! :D
I do have some reasons though..for example, some non-believers always say that if God exists, there wouldn't be war, hate, jealously, etc. All the bad stuff. But the thing is, God loved us so much that He gave us a free will, including the will to believe in Him or not. God doesn't make wars and hate happen, WE do. That 'we' means humans. You don't see animals raging war do you? (lol :lol: ) They just kill other animals because they need to survive. That's natural. But humans create war and hate. If humans can think on the bad side, they can also think on the good side. But i guess we don't tend to do that, do we?
Another reason is, look around you. I once read that you can look at the world in two ways: one is to look at everything as a miracle; the other is to treat nothing as a miracle. This is because if you look at everything logically, scientists can explain it with something complexed; so this way people can say that miracles dont exist. If you treat everything as a miracle, you can look at the world simply, and see the beauty of it. Don't seeing birds, nature, etc. make you smile, instead of studying science text books? (Well, ok, maybe not. :P ) That's the grace of God. There's happiness in everthing He makes.

Raist:
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I couldn't agree more. But we don't have to adhere to the same faith or non-faith to have that same appreciation. There are jerks on either side of the debate, but that doesn't label either group as a whole.


i know what you mean by that. I have many friends that aren't catholic and we get along just fine. :) There are always good and bad people for a group, clique, nation, etc. Not one nation's or religion's people is entirely perfect. So i have to said that, not all Catholics are right either. :P

Raist:
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And rather than hope you come over to the athiestic point of view I only hope you find happiness and content in your belief.


Thanks! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Mrs.Loz
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Pathetic lowlife
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And for those that don't, i'm sure you have your reasons, but i hope that someday you will meet Him.


I hate it when people say stuff like that. Please, I don't want to meet him, I know who my father is, and it isn't a spirit or a God or whatever.



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Simplicity
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Mrs. Loz:
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I hate it when people say stuff like that. Please, I don't want to meet him, I know who my father is, and it isn't a spirit or a God or whatever.


ok, thanks for telling me. i didnt know it would offend some people. Sorry! :unsure:
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Raist
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The Bringer of the Black Funeral
Simplicity

Hey Simplicity. I'm incredibly busy with exams at the moment (my first exam is English on Thursday) and they're my University entrance exams :no:

So I won't be able to post very often, but I'll do my best ok.


Oh, and I was wondering if perhaps you could edit one minor detail in your post.

When you bolded my name in your reply post you accidentally typed

Racist:

Haha, I'm sure it was just a mistake, but would you mind changing it?
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Simplicity
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ahhah...sorry about that! but err..how can i change it? i mean its already posted..@_@

and good luck on ur exams! :lol:

Ahaha...nvm, i figured it out. I never knew you could edit your post. :P
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Mrs.Loz
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Simplicity
Nov 4 2005, 09:39 PM
Mrs. Loz:
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I hate it when people say stuff like that. Please, I don't want to meet him, I know who my father is, and it isn't a spirit or a God or whatever.


ok, thanks for telling me. i didnt know it would offend some people. Sorry! :unsure:

I was in a mood that day, so just ignore anything I say. Im still in a mood now.. :no:
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Simplicity
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Mrs.Loz:
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I was in a mood that day, so just ignore anything I say. Im still in a mood now..


everyone has that mood sometimes, it's understandable, so don't worry! :)
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Nevi
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let us be lovers.
Whoo! So much happened while I was gone! What were we saying...?
(Tis forgetful.) :angel:
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EnglishRose
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Hyper, this quote was in the Homosexuality thread, and I thought it would be good if I answered here. ^_^

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And if you ask me, from my reading of the Fall, it seems like God Himself created sin by creating the possibility for it to take place. Don't eat that apple (that I know you're going to eat anyway) - by setting up a moral restraint on Adam and Eve, He also sets up the possibility for them to break that restraint. Saying Don't sin opens one up to fact that you can sin.


Well, God did create Satan, who created sin, yes, and so God must've known, I agree with you. But don't you think letting Satan in the Garden, and God letting Satan test man's Faith and zeal for God be a good trial? God tested man, to see if man would abuse authority, and unfortunately, God got the answer. We failed the test, so we are condemned. And that's tough, I'm afraid. ^_^ I'm not bothered about it myself, because I know I'm saved and I can escape from sin now, because I have accpeted Jesus into my heart and life and I know He is the only one who can save me from sin.


"Set your affection on things above, not on things on the Earth" Colossians 3:2
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Simplicity
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*~*EnglishRose*~*:
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Well, God did create Satan,...

:huh: :huh: :huh: He did not! Satan is actually a fallen angel who thought that he can surpass God so he turned against Him.

A side note, the creation story is not nessasary true.
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Hyper-Ballad
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Heroine addict since 1997
Simplicity:

God created Lucifer, who became Satan, so in a round-about way he created Satan and made sin possible. :worry:

ER:

As for God testing Adam and Eve with the apple and letting Satan into Eden and generally providing tempation, it still doesn't change that God made sin possible by letting Adam and Eve know that certain behaviour (ie: eating forbidden fruit) was sinful...I think I wrote it in the other thread to go along with points Raist had been reiterating about how can a perfect God make sin possible.

As for the test itself, I can't help but think that for an omnipotent being, it must've been a little like the physics experiments you carry out in primary school: If I place this toy car on top of a slope, then I think it'll roll down because [blah blah blah gravity & inertia stuff] but let's try it anyway and see... You know that the toy car will roll down the slope, you know there's no way it'll stay still even if you can't explain it in scientific terms, but for the sake of the experiment you test it 10 times anyway.

I'm not assuming that I know how God thinks, but like I said, for an omnipotent being He must have been able to predict the results of the test...

...and then we launch into something about free will vs. determinism. :lol:
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