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Hate; I do not understand...
Topic Started: Aug 14 2005, 12:09 AM (1,111 Views)
Tacofoolio
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We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.
I understand what you're saying vash, but what i mean is that there can be a hate, but there is also forgiveness. Forgiveness is a choice, and not everyone is willing to. I think it's wonderful that you were able to. But some people never learn to, and don't have religion, someone, or something to help them with that. I, like you, believe in forgiveness as well, so I don't keep hatred in me. I may hate the things people do, but I don't hate the people.

I wasn't trying to argue why it's ok to hate, I was stating my observations on why I think kids are like this. I'm sorry if you felt upset by it. :unsure:
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vashsunglasses
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Escaped Experiment
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I'm sorry if you felt upset by it.


It wasn't you. I let myself get upset over this topic... Don't worry about it! :)
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Nevi
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let us be lovers.
This is a very serious issue. It's easy to get upset.
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
vashsunglasses
 
Oh, you mean like having an verbally abusive father who controls every aspect of your life and punishes you for the least little thing; a man who calls you a lazy selfish b*tch and beats your cat? Or having a step-mother who treats her biological children better than she ever treats you; a woman who is never satisfied with what you do and is contantly telling you what a worthless failure you are? How about a biological mother who comes back into your life after a long absence only to STEAL YOUR IDENTITY in order to sign up for credit cards?

I can see forgiving a parent who has abused you. But does forgiving them mean that you love them? I see forgiving them and loving them as being two separate things that aren't necessarily linked.

I think it's very hard to love a parent who's treated you that way. Forgving them for such acts is easier than loving them. Forgiving them means that you don't harbor ill will towards them or want to seek revenge.... but it doesn't mean that you love them. If you don't trust them, how can you say that you really love them? If you don't think the choices that they make are good choices, then how can you respect them? :unsure:

When a parent has gone to the extreme of harassing and/or abusing their child, I'm not sure that the child should feel obligated to love them just because they're his/her parents. I can see forgiving the parent's mistakes and shortcomings, and I can see understanding IF they failed despite trying their best for you... but I see that as being very different from outright abuse like we saw in the movie Mommy Dearest. Was that mother deserving of love? :unsure:
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Onigiri
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vashsunglasses
Aug 15 2005, 01:30 AM
Nowadays kids seem to have less respect for their parents and parents seem to let kids do whatever they want...  If I had ever spoken to my parents that way I would have been punished severely!  And heaven forbid I ever speak to my grandparents that way... I'd break their hearts!

To me its a matter of respect.  Even if it didn't bother them, I would never disrespect my parents by speaking to them like that.  Unless they have actually done something worthy of hate there is no reason to tell them you hate them.

I agree. There is a certain level of respect that we owe to our parents, however, I don't think because we respect them, that we have to like them.

I would never say 'I hate you' to my parents, but I don't particularly like them...and I certainly don't 'love' them. Its more like fear thats stopping me from saying it...then again, there is no real point in saying it.

But for why teens say it over such small things...I always thought it was cause they were spoiled. :unsure: Because, they get mad over something small...
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Skelly
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a strange angel
Forgiveness to me, is love. Or at least, a small degree of love. When you forgive someone, that is love because at least you are willing to let the grudge pass, for your sake and theirs. But that kind of love is very different from the kind of maternal/paternal kind of love, or even trust.

Judging by what you've said about Mommy Dearest, Aly, and before it, I take the mother was abusive. Is it true that sometimes, when a child is being abused for no cause, they tend to try and reach out all the same, as if they were the ones who were wrong? :unsure:

I can understand what you mean by the last part, Onigiri. Notice that teenagers who have been raised away from the harmful media of today tend to be more loving, while those exposed to it daily tend to be building up way too much "teenage angst"? :ermm: Or maybe that's just me...

Sometimes, I overreact when my parents keep reminding me to do something, when I already know what to do (I usually have a varied temper), but I never say "I hate you." That's going to far.

Though, I admit, sometimes, when my mom makes me feel like I should hate her, I tend to have violent ideas which usually involve my self-destruction. :blink:
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Nevi
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let us be lovers.
I agree with what you said in the first part, ~Hopeful_Angel~. Forgiveness is love. I think that we should forgive people no matter what they've done to us. Even doing something like physical and emotional abuse should be forgiven. Because if we don't forgive we become hardened and bitter. I know that there are times when I don't want to forgive people but I know that by not forgiving them it will only hurt me.
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
~Hopeful_Angel~
Aug 21 2005, 01:22 PM
Forgiveness to me, is love. Or at least, a small degree of love. When you forgive someone, that is love because at least you are willing to let the grudge pass, for your sake and theirs. But that kind of love is very different from the kind of maternal/paternal kind of love, or even trust.

Judging by what you've said about Mommy Dearest, Aly, and before it, I take the mother was abusive. Is it true that sometimes, when a child is being abused for no cause, they tend to try and reach out all the same, as if they were the ones who were wrong?  :unsure:

Yeah, Mommy Dearest is an old movie that gets repeated all the time. The mother is physically and mentally abusive to her daughter.

I don't know that forgiveness is necessarily love. For example, say that a Cloti came here and apologized to me for writing flames in my guestbook. If I accept the apology and don't harass the Cloti, does that mean I love the Cloti? Does that mean I trust the Cloti to never do anything against me again?

There are degrees of forgiveness. If a boyfriend and girlfriend get into an argument, patch things up, and forgive one another later, the forgiveness is based on their love for one another. That's a very different kind of forgiveness than forgiving a bully on the playground who harasses you on a daily basis.

Living with an abusive parent is like having a flaming, bashing, and harassing Cloti live with you. The insults and mocking can happen 24/7. If the parent is also physically and/or sexually abusive, the child can get beaten or raped any time of the day or night. It's like being a prisoner of war. How many times do you think a child would reach out in that situation?
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Wingless
devil's charm
And poor Anastar does have to live with such things. :huggle:

On a more serious note, I agree with you, Anastar. There are degrees to forgiveness, just as there are degrees to love. Forgiveness can, indeed, be a part of love. My Dad forgave my mother anything because he loved her, even after she walked out on him for another guy. But I look at forgiveness as a natural part of healing yourself. If you forgive someone who does wrong to you, you free yourself from their power and their control. It gives them nothing to hold over you and leaves you free of the pain of harboring resentment.

Because resentment and hatred are what ruin your personality and blind you to better things. Even though that person did bad things, you have to free yourself of the anger and the hatred, or else it eats you alive. You're basically stuck, and your resentment and hatred do not affect the person you bear it toward--it only affects you and those you love. Forgiveness has a more powerful healing effect--not for the perpetrator, but for the one offering it.

Does that make sense at all? I feel like I'm just gabbling away... ^_^
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Tacofoolio
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We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.
I was thinking about it, and I'm not sure if forgiveness is love. I had a longtime "friend" who betrayed me in a very serious way, and I have forgiven her, but I have no love for her. In time maybe I can, but I still can't feel any love towards her after what she did. The closest thing would probably be pity right now. I can't really put any more about it right now because it's starting to upset me...

I think that forgiveness is sometimes love, but sometimes it's for your own good. It may even be possible to forgive and still hate a person for what they've done. I really am not sure. I don't think I hate anyone, but I sure have misgivings that I try to let go of.
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EnglishRose
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God forgives all the time, when you come to Him in repentance. I know what you mean, Taco, when you say you can't love somebody, when they have hurt you so, but when you forgive, it means you are willing to put it behind you, and maybe start a new relatioship. Thats what happens when you when God forgives. You are born again, and when I came to God, I was a little girl, but I understood what it meant to belong to God. And as I've grown up, I just praise God that He has given me new life. When ever I stray, God always forgives me when I say sorry, and I mean it. I never try to do it again.

I have a friend who has recently been led to the Lord, and she has changed so much. She used to be moody, paranoid, and always had a burden on her back. She suffered so much. But now, since she became a Christian, she has changed like that. *clicks fingers* She is now happy, she smiles all the time, and has madea new life for herself, with the help of the Lord Jesus. God forgave her, and He still loves her for who she was and is.

Jesus loves us so much that He suffered on a cross, and put up with painful torture, so he can save us rom our own sin. Isn't that marvelous? Someone suffering for your sake? I owe everything to Him, all becuase He was willing to forgive us and Love us.

:) Anyway, I just wanted to give a testimony, that had the subject on hate/love. :whistle:
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Tacofoolio
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We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.
I just wrote a long thing, but now I deleted it because it's not what I want to say. I might write something later, but I don't know what yet. I think you guys are great, but I don't want to reveal so much about myself right yet. :huggle:
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
AerithResurrected
Aug 22 2005, 05:50 PM
God forgives all the time, when you come to Him in repentance. I know what you mean, Taco, when you say you can't love somebody, when they have hurt you so, but when you forgive, it means you are willing to put it behind you, and maybe start a new relatioship. Thats what happens when you when God forgives. You are born again, and when I came to God, I was a little girl, but I understood what it meant to belong to God. And as I've grown up, I just praise God that He has given me new life. When ever I stray, God always forgives me when I say sorry, and I mean it. I never try to do it again.

But how can you compare God's love in forgiving us with forgiveness among humans? God may forgive us out of love for us, but that doesn't mean that all human forgiveness is based on love.

Wingless
 
On a more serious note, I agree with you, Anastar. There are degrees to forgiveness, just as there are degrees to love. Forgiveness can, indeed, be a part of love. My Dad forgave my mother anything because he loved her, even after she walked out on him for another guy. But I look at forgiveness as a natural part of healing yourself. If you forgive someone who does wrong to you, you free yourself from their power and their control. It gives them nothing to hold over you and leaves you free of the pain of harboring resentment.

Because resentment and hatred are what ruin your personality and blind you to better things. Even though that person did bad things, you have to free yourself of the anger and the hatred, or else it eats you alive. You're basically stuck, and your resentment and hatred do not affect the person you bear it toward--it only affects you and those you love. Forgiveness has a more powerful healing effect--not for the perpetrator, but for the one offering it.

Tacofoolio
 
I was thinking about it, and I'm not sure if forgiveness is love. I had a longtime "friend" who betrayed me in a very serious way, and I have forgiven her, but I have no love for her. In time maybe I can, but I still can't feel any love towards her after what she did. The closest thing would probably be pity right now. I can't really put any more about it right now because it's starting to upset me...

I think that forgiveness is sometimes love, but sometimes it's for your own good. It may even be possible to forgive and still hate a person for what they've done. I really am not sure. I don't think I hate anyone, but I sure have misgivings that I try to let go of.

Exactly. There may be many reasons for forgiving someone that has nothing to do with loving them.

Feeling hatred toward anyone is a terrible thing, and it's often unwarranted. Some people will hate others who simply disagree with them, for example. Many rabid Cloti's hate Cleris people because we have a different opinion on the Love Triangle, for example. Their hatred is totally unwarranted, and it belittles them, in my opinion.

At the same time, I don't think that a parent deserves to be loved simply because they are your parent. It totally depends on how the parent has treated you. If a parent has been mentally, physically, and/or sexually abusive to their child, I don't think the child is obligated to love their parent. If a child hates their parent due to mental, physical, and/or sexual abuse, I think the child has good reason to hate their parent.

I'm not saying that parents should be hated for disciplining children or setting limits that the child doesn't like. That's done for the child's own welfare, and the child may not agree with what the parent is doing. But disagreements are not a reason for hatred. It's just as unreasonable and unwarranted as rabid Cloti's hating us because we don't think that Cloud loved Tifa.
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Skelly
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a strange angel
Sorry. I didn't make you understand. ^_^

By forgiveness, people love. Okay, another vague statement, but let me try again. If you forgive someone, you don't necessarily really love them (once again, not like paternal/maternal love) but it's like you're releasing grudges. Grudges that would destroy you.

How can a grudge destroy you? You build up resentment until you can't handle it any longer, which usually crushes you spiritually and emotionally, especially if you are helpless in changing you're current situation.

Forgiving is still loving, with different bases, like you said. For someone who is abusive in any way, letting go of that pain is helping you focus, in keeping yourself sane - under that sort of abuse, who wouldn't break? - and keeping your mind in check.

The reaching-out part is a question. Sorry! >_< I was wondering if it would happen, to children who are still so young and don't know why their parents seem to hate them.

With trust, it's placing a situation or something related to that in someone's hands. It's loving them enough to wholly believe that they would never let you down in what you have asked them to.

With the Cloti situation, you can forgive a person from what they've done, but to trust them to do it again? Not really. You're never sure if that apology is sincere, or not.
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EnglishRose
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Anastar
 
But how can you compare God's love in forgiving us with forgiveness among humans? God may forgive us out of love for us, but that doesn't mean that all human forgiveness is based on love.


Because God's love in infinite. There is nothing that can stop God from loving you, and here is the person who created us. We are human, and as humans we hate. You are perfectly right, Aly, humans can hate, but they can fogive. Forgiving is a sign of chivalry, that can show that love conquers all, whether it's love for a mother, father, brother, friend, enemy, or your partner.

Ever heard of the phrase, "Forgive and forget"? There is more to it, than just forgiving and forgetting. Forgiving is an act of wanting to deal with a problem, confonting it, and then forgetting the situation, getting on with your life. It is not healthy to hold a grudge, and all the people who have trespassed against me, I have forgiven them, becuase God has taught me how to forgive. And, I love the person back, no matter what they have done to me, becuase I want them to understand the same joy as me, of knowing that if they accept God, He will be able to take us away from all the evil that is going to happen in this world. *holds up the Bible*
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