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Words Of Nomura And Kitase!; you'll see.
Topic Started: Jun 4 2005, 08:15 AM (1,918 Views)
Kusari Yarou
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Quote:
 
I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love

The Clotis are gonna have a field day over this one. They're gonna say that Cloud's continuing love for Aerith is the "perennial cliche" that Kitase is talking about and therefore, he will never meet her in the Promised Land and will move on instead :yawn:
But this does put a new spin on our 'Cloud's Death' theory, doesn't it? If Cloud dies, it won't be merely for the reason of "being with Aerith", it'll be for something else.
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Anti-R
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the girl who becomes a prince
I thought the cliche was the guy getting recklessly killed for the girl (as seen what Romeo did when he saw Juliet), not thinking about her...

OK, I'm confused...
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Kaldea
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fantôme
The cliche is definately over the guy killing himself or letting himself be killed JUST because he loved someone. Cloud has never showed signs of killing himself or letting himself be killed (he could have done that during the battle with Sephiroth), he just spiritually gave up in a way. And for more than one reason.

The love he has isn't a cliche. If Cloud loving Aeris is a cliche, then so is every other instance of love. And in my opinion, childhood love is ten times more cliche than letting go of the past and moving on with someone who makes you truely happy, regardless of life or death matters.

Quote:
 
The Clotis are gonna have a field day over this one. They're gonna say that Cloud's continuing love for Aerith is the "perennial cliche" that Kitase is talking about and therefore, he will never meet her in the Promised Land and will move on instead


For that to work, the clotis would have to admit Cloud loved Aeris.
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Anti-R
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the girl who becomes a prince
Throughout the game itself, too, where they insisted that Cloud and Tifa are THE pair as Square intented in the first place.
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Cloud's Girl
Jun 7 2005, 11:21 AM
For that to work, the clotis would have to admit Cloud loved Aeris.

It also has to mean that Cloud loved Aerith for Cloud to "move on". "Moving on" means that you're getting involved in a new love relationship after an old love relationship ended, so it's an admission that he loved Aerith. :lol:
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Tacofoolio
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We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.
I think what would have made it cliche is if Cloud would've jumped in front of Aerith and sacrificed his life for hers. That tends to be more of the dramatic sacrifice they probably are talking about. That's what I think at least.
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slowerthanaverage
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*somewhat lost*
Anastar
Jun 7 2005, 03:14 PM
It also has to mean that Cloud loved Aerith for Cloud to "move on". "Moving on" means that you're getting involved in a new love relationship after an old love relationship ended, so it's an admission that he loved Aerith. :lol:

Oh dear, that would also mean all Cloti interpretations of FFVII is wrong :o
Now, they would never agree to that would they? :no:
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Aki
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Ophelia
Jun 5 2005, 09:32 PM
Wow, thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention, Aki. Certainly something I had never seen before.

When I first played the game I was expecting a ressurrection, but when that never came, I figured it wasn't going to happen. This however is still a great find in the sense that it does give more insight into Aeris' death and Cloud's feelings. Always good to see more concrete proof on our side. :D

Kind of late, but no problem!
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Neko-Neko-Bear
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Aki
Jun 4 2005, 08:15 AM
I found this.. I don't really remember where, but I'm pretty sure if you copy and paste some of it in google or something, you'll find it.

Nomura, concerning Aerith's death:

Quote
Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?

Change himself, to herself, and I think you got Aeris! He says 'loves someone very much, and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love.'. (cept' himself would be herself [Aeris]).. so with Nomura saying that, It makes me think that.. well.. she (Aeris) ``died in a dramatic fashion to express that love.`` [for cloud, of course.]. But then again, there's that other part to 'saving the planet', but I think she did it for him, out of love, since that was his goal in the first place. :) Kind of like.. the line "I'd die for you.". so cool. :D


Kitase follows that up with this:

Quote
In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much, you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had known this was coming, I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."

Not just players, but.. Cloud too! (But then again, the player would be Cloud since.. he's the character you're playing as.) and since I think.. he's referring to Cloud, he had to have loved her. Yay!  :cleris: I don't know.. I guess I found this a bit interesting, since, to me, it resembled Cloud and Aeris. (i have improper use of commas.  :unsure: )

Well, for Nomura, the realism he talked about, wouldn't that be that you can't always save the one you love?

And for Kitase, we all know Cloud felt the same way. :)
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Lynn
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Lynn has no Lloud smut ;-;
Neko-Neko-Bear
Dec 8 2005, 01:09 PM
Well, for Nomura, the realism he talked about, wouldn't that be that you can't always save the one you love?

For me, the realism Nomura talked about was dealing with how a character would typically be willing to sacrifice themselves to prove their love-- that they would be happy to do so. You know, dying with a smile and no regrets because that early death was proof of their love for their loved one.

In real life, how many people would actually be happy to die? Wouldn't they much rather want to spend the rest of their days with the people they love? I thought it was presented very starkly in MotP-- how Aerith herself admits that she would've much rather wanted to stay with Cloud forever. She didn't want to die, wasn't willing to. But it was something that she knew she had to do, and she stepped up to the plate to do it.

Utter willingness to die is something I can only imagine happening in a story. I think that was what Nomura was trying to say-- that while it is a romantic idea, it is not very realistic.

Kitase follows up with a similar thought. But with him, I think he tackles the typical idea that when somebody dies for the greater cause, their teammates are 'okay' with it because it was for a greater cause. There is the feeling of... acceptance, I suppose one could call it, however sorrowful. 'Dramatic', as Kitase says.

But when Aerith died in FFVII, Cloud did not accept it calmly-- he was enraged, he wanted revenge, he couldn't/wouldn't let go of Aerith. It was real, seething anger. I thought that was what he was referring to, as feelings of reality and not Hollywood.
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Neko-Neko-Bear
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*Bows* You win, Lynn. ^_^

I can see that now, as unrealistic as FFVII was, it was also VERY realistic at the same time. That makes perfect sense! :)
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Hades' Daughter
Cleris Extremist
I've never seen this before. Excellent find, Aki! :gift:

I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love.[/b] We found this was the case in both games and movies, both easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people? - Nomura

It's just my interpretation but after reading this, I got the impression Nomura was referring to VII's theme: Life. Usually, people associate death with The End, but just maybe Nomura and Co. wanted to incorporate into the game the idea that death isn't the end of life as MoTP stated. Perhaps they wanted to set a different example, something different to show the rest of the world, something more realistic and not just something dramatic.

When you lose someone you loved very much, you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had known this was coming, I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood - Kitase

The words of Kitase himself. :woot:
CoT pointed out Cloud's feelings of 'sadness' and 'regret', and now we have evidence as well of this feeling of 'empty space' (loneliness). Haven't we been arguing all along that 'guilt' wasn't the only issue at hand? :)

Kitase points out that these are feelings of reality which go along with how Nomura talked about wanting to show something realistic. Hence, I don't see how Clotis can claim Nomura and Co wanted to show that Cloud would 'move on' with Tifa. That's complete assumption, just like how they like to assume Nomura had killed Aerith off because he "dislikes" her... :crazy:
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Aki
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PURE HEART
Hades' Daughter
Dec 9 2005, 04:14 PM
I've never seen this before. Excellent find, Aki! :gift:

I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love.[/b] We found this was the case in both games and movies, both easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people? - Nomura

It's just my interpretation but after reading this, I got the impression Nomura was referring to VII's theme: Life. Usually, people associate death with The End, but just maybe Nomura and Co. wanted to incorporate into the game the idea that death isn't the end of life as MoTP stated. Perhaps they wanted to set a different example, something different to show the rest of the world, something more realistic and not just something dramatic.

When you lose someone you loved very much, you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had known this was coming, I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood - Kitase

The words of Kitase himself. :woot:
CoT pointed out Cloud's feelings of 'sadness' and 'regret', and now we have evidence as well of this feeling of 'empty space' (loneliness). Haven't we been arguing all along that 'guilt' wasn't the only issue at hand? :)

Kitase points out that these are feelings of reality which go along with how Nomura talked about wanting to show something realistic. Hence, I don't see how Clotis can claim Nomura and Co wanted to show that Cloud would 'move on' with Tifa. That's complete assumption, just like how they like to assume Nomura had killed Aerith off because he "dislikes" her... :crazy:

:cleris:
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