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By Sephiroth's Hand
Topic Started: Mar 8 2005, 07:12 PM (1,561 Views)
Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
I agree with what you're all saying, but I was taking it even further than his devastation at letting Tifa fall at the bridge and how that relates to his problems in AC.

Anastar
Mar 11 2005, 01:37 AM
Let's look carefully at Cloud's words during the Lifestream Event:

Tifa "Talk to me. About anything, some important memory to you..." "Now that you mention it, why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place?" "I always thought it was a sudden decision you made......"
(Suddenly, the transparent Cloud high above speaks. Tifa doesn't hear.)
         "......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed."
(The Cloud of the well echoes these same words.)
         "......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed."
(The next words come only from the Cloud of the well.)
         "I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice........."
(Tifa nods.)
Tifa "Someone has to notice you...? ......who?"
(The Cloud above speaks again.)
         "Who.........? ......You know who! ......You, that's who."
(The Cloud of the well speaks differently.)
         "You......"
Tifa "......Me? Why!?"
Cloud  "Tifa...... did you forget...... about those days?"


Everyone always assumes that Cloud is talking about his personal devastation - his crush on Tifa that was never reciprocated. But when Tifa asks him what is he talking about, Cloud talks about the memory of her fall at the bridge. THAT's what he was devastated about. THAT's what caused him a great deal of pain and guilt. THAT's why he got into fights later on.

I think the bit about "I was devastated" refers to his memory of her fall at the bridge, not his personal devastation that she wouldn't notice him.

I'm pointing out that the words everyone takes to mean that Cloud has a crush on Tifa really means that he was upset about letting her fall at the bridge. When Cloud says, "I was devastated", everyone thinks he means personally devastated when Tifa didn't notice him. Because of that, they think Cloud had a crush on Tifa.

I think that "devastation" only means that he was devastated when he let her fall at the bridge, disappointed in his weakness, and ashamed of people's accusations. That's what the devastation was - not an unreciprocated crush. ;)
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Sefie
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Eyes of dream-water
See, I never understood how it could be said that Young Cloud had a crush on Tifa. It always just looked like he was trying to use her as a way into the In Crowd
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Sefie
Mar 13 2005, 05:45 AM
See, I never understood how it could be said that Young Cloud had a crush on Tifa. It always just looked like he was trying to use her as a way into the In Crowd

I got the same impression. I also wonder why he just sat there and said, "What?" twice, and then, "Oh, all right... I promise" if his crush is sitting there asking him to protect her. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that he's so reluctant?
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Anti-R
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the girl who becomes a prince
I also find it strange Cloud forgot Tifa's promise... I mean, he CAN remember every line he read that lengthy letter in her desk, why not the promise?

Anyways, the whole Cloud's reaction towards Aerith and Tifa when they were harmed reinforced my believe on CxA more... and I hope SE keeps the subtlety...
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Shiva
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Anastar
 
I agree with what you're all saying, but I was taking it even further than his devastation at letting Tifa fall at the bridge and how that relates to his problems in AC.


I understood what you were saying, Aly. I was just pointing out that Cloud seems to feel as though he cannot protect anyone. This may stem from the fact that he was too weak to do anything to keep Tifa from getting injured as a child, and then failing again as a bodyguard to Aerith. I agree with everything you said, it definitely makes more sense than Cloud running off to join SOLDIER just to impress someone he has merely admired from afar. "I don't know you, but you look hot, so I am going to leave behind everything I know and get into a dangerous job just to impress you!" Riiiiiiiiiight... :whistle: I never understood why CloTis thought that. :rolleyes:

Anastar
 
I got the same impression. I also wonder why he just sat there and said, "What?" twice, and then, "Oh, all right... I promise" if his crush is sitting there asking him to protect her. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that he's so reluctant?


Exactly. That scene always seemed a bit... off... to me. :ermm: I mean, if Cloud was so hot for Tifa, then why didn't he jump at the chance to be her protector? :huh: He sure didn't hesitate when Aerith asked him to be her bodyguard (and he followed through with that vow later). :cleris:
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
FF_Goddess
Mar 13 2005, 05:39 PM
I understood what you were saying, Aly. I was just pointing out that Cloud seems to feel as though he cannot protect anyone. This may stem from the fact that he was too weak to do anything to keep Tifa from getting injured as a child, and then failing again as a bodyguard to Aerith.

AND being too out of it to help Zack after Zack had literally saved his life, AND failing to rescue his mother from the fire in Nibelheim.

FF_Goddess
 
I agree with everything you said, it definitely makes more sense than Cloud running off to join SOLDIER just to impress someone he has merely admired from afar. "I don't know you, but you look hot, so I am going to leave behind everything I know and get into a dangerous job just to impress you!" Riiiiiiiiiight... :whistle: I never understood why CloTis thought that. :rolleyes:

Exactly... AND when Tifa asks him about what what he means, he tells about the what happened at the bridge. If he meant he was devastated that Tifa didn't reciprocate his crush, then why didn't he talk about gazing up at her window from outside and longing for her when she ignored him? He talked about the fall at the bridge and how he got blamed, so that must be what devastated him.

FF_Goddess
 
Exactly. That scene always seemed a bit... off... to me. :ermm: I mean, if Cloud was so hot for Tifa, then why didn't he jump at the chance to be her protector? :huh: He sure didn't hesitate when Aerith asked him to be her bodyguard (and he followed through with that vow later). :cleris:

Exactly. If he was so hot for her, then why didn't he want to be her bodyguard and hero? He sure wanted to be Aerith's! :lol:
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Kusari Yarou
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"Tifa didn't notice me so I was devastated"? Puh-leeze. Square created a game, not a junior high soap opera. Everyone's right, his devastation was caused by the consequences of Tifa's accident, not by her rejection of him.

Quote:
 
"Doesn't it seem a bit odd that he's so reluctant?

Okay, let's say Cloud did have a crush on Tifa. If I were a guy and and a girl so blatantly ignored me and bullied me along with her pack of snooty friends, and then she suddenly has the nerve to ask me to be her hero the night before I leave her, I would be pretty frigid. My crush on her would evaporate in an instant. And this is just assuming that he had a crush on her!

I sounded a little angry in the last paragraph. I'm not attacking Tifa's character but I have always disliked her reasons that influenced the sudden need for Cloud to be her hero. Which is why I never did get what was so romantic about the Well Promise scene
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Kusari Yarou
Mar 14 2005, 03:38 AM
"Tifa didn't notice me so I was devastated"?  Puh-leeze. Square created a game, not a junior high soap opera. Everyone's right, his devastation was caused by the consequences of Tifa's accident, not by her rejection of him.

That's why everyone thinks he had a crush on her. That, and the bit about he used to look up at her window from outside. Funny, I can't find that statement in the script. Maybe I should try playing that sequence of the game tomorrow to make sure. Oh, and the other thing that makes people think he had a crush on her is when he says, "......a sealed up secret...... wish......" "Tender memories...... no one can ever know........." Again, everyone assumes that his secret wish is to have Tifa as his girlfriend, and that the "tender memories" involve his broken heart. Now, put those words in the context of what happens during the Lifestream Event, as well as in the context of the whole passage:

"It's important to me...... I hate to say it but...... It's a very important memory......" "Do you want to see it?"
(Teenage Cloud runs over to stand next to the third and final Cloud. Past
him can be seen a window, without a building past it to look into. Tifa
speaks to the Cloud seated there.)
"......a sealed up secret...... wish......" "Tender memories...... no one can ever know........."


Okay, the important memory isn't a broken heart - the important memory is Tifa's fall at the bridge and how he got blamed for it. That means that the "secret wish" is that he had been strong enough to keep Tifa from falling. That also means that the "tender memories" are referring to something that hurt him. What hurt him? Getting blamed for letting her fall at the bridge.

Cloud's not talking about a crush that he had on Tifa. He's talking about her fall at the bridge.

Kusari Yarou
 
I sounded a little angry in the last paragraph. I'm not attacking Tifa's character but I have always disliked her reasons that influenced the sudden need for Cloud to be her hero. Which is why I never did get what was so romantic about the Well Promise scene

I've disliked her reasons, too. Why the sudden interest, just because he was going into SOLDIER? She's interested in SOLDIERs, so she suddenly likes Cloud? That sounds terribly superficial to me.
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slowerthanaverage
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*somewhat lost*
Anastar
Mar 14 2005, 04:23 AM
I've disliked her reasons, too. Why the sudden interest, just because he was going into SOLDIER? She's interested in SOLDIERs, so she suddenly likes Cloud? That sounds terribly superficial to me.

I don't dislike Tifa, she has her flaws oh well :rolleyes: , but I dislike her fans twisting Tifa into some kind of heroine who was always there for cloud blah blah blah
I could not understand why do Cloti claim that Tifa truly loved CLoud as she knew him for a longer period of time while Aerith was only flirting (to one person and only one person is actually not really flirting) because he acted like Zack
I mean Tifa missed Cloud when he returned to Nibelhelm with Sephiroth and Zack!!! <_< I am thinking Tifa was too busy admiring the first class soldiers but hey, that's just me <_<
And the next time she met him, it was in avalanche. According to Cloti's argument, Cloud was acting like Zack. So Tifa never truly knew the real Cloud all these time. <_< AND she could not tell that it wasn't the real Cloud because she had never truly known him beforehand. The only thing that told Tifa Cloud wasn't exactly 100% sane was that his story of his past didn't telly with Tifa's. Behavioural wise, how was Tifa to know that wasn't the real adult-Cloud? - so question : who did Tifa fall for? :ermm:

Aerith, on the other hand, had this special ability to see through people. She could see a bit of Zack in him, yet she knew that the real Cloud was hiding just beneath that nochalant facade.
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Well, if you take the idea that Aerith didn't fall in love with the real Cloud seriously, then Tifa didn't fall in love with the real Cloud, either. According to that theory, Cloud wasn't himself until after the Lifestream Event. But Tifa was saying she loved him in the Mideel Hospital, which is before the Lifestream Event. That would mean that Cloud wasn't the real Cloud when Tifa fell in love with him, either.

Tifa didn't know him well as a child, so she didn't get to know him in Nibelheim. When did Tifa get to know the real Cloud?

Take it even further - Tifa and Cloud only have six non-optional interactions between the Lifestream Event and the Highwind Scene. So if Aerith didn't fall in love with the real Cloud, then neither did Tifa. ;)
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Lost Mercenary
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Defends The Honour Of Aeris
Cloud's muffed up personality are an issue when it comes to this. Was he the same person Aeris fell in love with after his incident inside the Lifestream? Who knows?

When Advent Children is realesed a lot of the questions above are going to be explained and hopefully the love triangle will have a resolution.

You know like Tifa dying or something. :angel:
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Aprillis
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Lost Mercenary
Mar 15 2005, 05:28 AM
Was he the same person Aeris fell in love with after his incident inside the Lifestream? Who knows?

Well, during the date sequence with Aeris, she seems ready to accept Cloud for whoever he really is.

(not exact quotes)

Aeris: Cloud, I want to meet you.

Cloud: ...But I'm right here.

Aeris: I know... what I mean is...

Aeris: I want to meet... you.
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Lost Mercenary
Mar 14 2005, 09:28 PM
Cloud's muffed up personality are an issue when it comes to this. Was he the same person Aeris fell in love with after his incident inside the Lifestream? Who knows?

I don't think Cloud's personality was "muffed up" at all. He confused a few memories with Zack, but he never became Zack. Zack was a talkative, outgoing, cheerful, and helpful person. When did we ever see Cloud act like that?

Cloud was acting very much like himself at the beginning of the game in the Seventh Heaven. Remember the talk about him always getting into fights when he was a little kid? Well, look at how Cloud acts in the basement of the Seventh Heaven:

Cloud "If there was anyone from SOLDIER you wouldn't be standing here now."
Barret "Don't go thinkin' you so bad jes cuz you was in SOLDIER."
Cloud "......."
Barret "Yeah, you're strong." "Probably all them guys in SOLDIER are." "But don't forget your skinny ass's working for AVALANCHE now!" "Don't get no ideas 'bout hangin' on to Shinra."
Cloud "Stayin' with Shinra?" "You asked me a question and I answered it... that's all." "I'm going upstairs. I want to talk about my money."
Barret "Shucks!! ........money...."
Marlene "Papa. you're so great!"
(Cloud moves to leave. Tifa runs in.)
Tifa "Wait, Cloud!"
Barret "Tifa! Let him go!" "Looks like he still misses the Shinra!"
Cloud "Shut up!" "I don't care about either Shinra or SOLDIER!" "But don't get me wrong!" "I don't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet for that matter!"
Tifa "Straighten things up with everyone for me."

Television ......today the No.1 Reactor was bombed. The terrorist group AVALANCHE has claimed responsibility for the bombing. It is expected that AVALANCHE will continue its reign of terror. But citizens of Midgar.... there is no need to fear. I have immediately mobilized SOLDIER to protect our citizenry against this senseless violence. Thank you and good night.

Wedge "...Cloud." "You say you don't care, but you came to talk to me." "Cloud.... you just want friends." "Isn't that right?"
<CHOICE>
Blow off
I really don't care


Now, tell me... is that the personality of a kid who always used to get into fights as a child in Nibelheim, or is that the personality of Zack?

Note that Wedge tells Cloud that he just wants friends? Wasn't that true of Cloud in Nibelheim? Zack didn't have trouble making friends. ;)
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Anti-R
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the girl who becomes a prince
To make things worse, Tifa has serious issues with SOLDIERS, as seen when she saw her father killed, and in the Junon ship trip (she used the word hate twice).

Kind of strange Cloud was going to do something Tifa didn't like...

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Lost Mercenary
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Defends The Honour Of Aeris
Cloud left to join SOLDIER some 5 years earlier. What Tifa said doesn't really matter cause it was not reffering to Cloud.
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