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| By Sephiroth's Hand | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 8 2005, 07:12 PM (1,556 Views) | |
| Anti-R | Mar 8 2005, 07:12 PM Post #1 |
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the girl who becomes a prince
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Well, out of serependity in the ACF, a CloTi fan asked how would Cloud react if Tifa, and not Aerith, had died. Then suddenly, something clicked in my head, there was a time Tifa almost died from Sephiroth, and it's in Cloud's flashback. We all knew how Cloud reacted with Aerith's death. But what about Tifa's? In both fake and real memories, Cloud honestly thought that Tifa was killed when Sephiroth attacked her with the Masamune. Yet what did he do? Instead of angsting and shoulder shaking graphics, he kinda left her there, took the Buster sword, sort of confronted Sephiroth, then went back to put Tifa aside, and then run after Sephiroth. <_< ...Quite unromantic... CloTis then claim Sephiroth was a bigger threat back then than grieve over Tifa. That is bull. If anything, Sephiroth is a lot more dangerous in the present time of the game (he has the Black Materia, dangit!), yet Cloud took time to angst over Aerith. |
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| Lost Mercenary | Mar 8 2005, 10:43 PM Post #2 |
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Defends The Honour Of Aeris
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Cloud knew that Tifa wasn't dead when Sephiroth mowed her down like a chicken kebab. In the first/muffed up flashback. Tifa says... "You promised you would come... when I was in trouble." This is part of Cloud's original memory otherwise it wouldn't have been there. He wasn't in angst cause she was alive and just really badly wounded. Actually after writing that... I'm gonna contradict myself. Remember this scene? *Cloud skewers Sephiroth* Cloud: My town, mom, Tifa... GIVE IT BACK!!! He cries out the ones who are dead except Tifa. Did he think she had died or not? Or was he just really pissed off? AHHHHH!!! I'M CONFUSED!!!
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| Anti-R | Mar 9 2005, 04:32 AM Post #3 |
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the girl who becomes a prince
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Because when Tifa asked Cloud how badly she was cut Cloud replied that "I thought you were a goner... I was really sad." (in the Japanese version he said "I thought you were finished... it was sad.") And yeah, I think in the real memory, Cloud thought she died because he added Tifa's name with his mom and his hometown, as well as saying to Sephiroth "Give them back!!!" when he stabbed him. Zangan himself said in the letter that Tifa's wounds was so bad he had to take her to Midgar, which is a continent away), for medication. Which implies her wound is mortally dangerous, if she wasn't killed by that time, she is definitely dying. |
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| Anastar | Mar 9 2005, 05:35 AM Post #4 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Very good point, Anti-R. Cloud knew that Tifa was dying. We know that because Cloud said that he thought Tifa was a "goner" after the Kalm flashback. Yet, Cloud reacted very differently to Tifa's "death" than he did to Aerith's. In Aerith's case, Sephiroth was right there. Cloud had every opportunity to kill Sephiroth, but Cloud rushed over to Aerith and called out her name, attempting to revive her. Cloud didn't turn around to face Sephroth because he was too overwhelmed by his grief. Cloud just laid Tifa over to the side. She would have bled to death if Zangan hadn't saved her. (Which is another reason I find the whole idea of Cloud fulfilling the Promise to be ridiculous, since Cloud did not save her - Zangan did.) Why didn't Cloud try to find help for Tifa when he found her dying? Why not carry her back to town like Zangan did? If he were so in love with Tifa, wouldn't he have tried to save her instead of rushing off to fight Sephiroth? After all, which is more important? Saving the life of someone you love, or taking revenge? Can't revenge wait? |
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| Sefie | Mar 9 2005, 04:02 PM Post #5 |
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Eyes of dream-water
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Also, Sephiroth was standing three feet behind Cloud at Aeris' death, but he was in another room and up some stairs in the flashback. I would be more threatened by the guy standing RIGHT BEHIND ME <_< |
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| Anti-R | Mar 9 2005, 05:00 PM Post #6 |
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the girl who becomes a prince
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Oh, yeah, Sephiroth is literally at his back, gloating. You'd think Cloud would at least be worried for that, but he was too busy crying over Aerith. Poor guy... I couldn't see the same "devastated" reaction from him with Tifa, the girl whom he supposedly love. And both girls were harmed from the same guy with the same sword who's literally raising hell. |
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| Anastar | Mar 9 2005, 05:12 PM Post #7 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Zangan said that he used the Heal spell on Tifa many times on the way down the mountain and on their way to Midgar. He said he took her to Midgar in order to find a doctor he could trust since there were Shinra troops were all over Nibelheim after the fire. Why didn't Cloud do that for Tifa, if he were so in love with her? Why did Square write it so that Zangan did it instead of Cloud, if Cloud is supposed to be in love with Tifa? Why did Square write it so that Barret rescued Tifa in Junon instead of Cloud? Did anyone besides Squall ever rescue Rinoa? <_< |
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| Shiva | Mar 10 2005, 02:54 AM Post #8 |
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Legendary Member
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Yeah, I actually have a big rant regarding this on my LTD page. Here it is:Let us compare Cloud's reaction over the death of Aerith with another time when he believed that two people close to him were injured and/or dying: Zack: A close friend of Cloud's from SOLDIER, Zack was brutally attacked by Sephiroth and left to die. What was Cloud's reaction? Nothing. He picked up Zack's sword and went after Sephiroth. He said nothing. He did nothing for Zack. He showed no emotion. Tifa: A close friend of Cloud and the other half of the "love triangle". Tifa was viciously stabbed by Sephiroth and left for dead. Cloud comes across Tifa lying on the steps of the reactor at Nibelheim. She is bleeding severely. What does Cloud do? Does he hold her close? No. Does he scream in rage and anguish? No. Does he weep? No. All Cloud does is set Tifa to the side. He says nothing to her. He just leaves her there to die. And, yes, Cloud did think Tifa was dying, later admitting that he thought she was a "goner". Tifa herself stated that she was surprised that she had survived the incident. Cloud admitted that he was "sad" that Tifa was dying. However, his sadness was not enough to break down his cold exterior and open the emotional floodgates as we see during Aerith's death. In fact, if it had not been for Tifa's teacher, Zangan, she probably would have died. Zangan was the one to stop Tifa's bleeding, not Cloud. Zangan was the one who carried Tifa down Mt. Nibelheim to get her much-needed medical attention, not Cloud. Now, compare all of this to Cloud's reaction at Aerith's death. It should be CLEAR which of them Cloud is in love with. |
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| Lost Mercenary | Mar 10 2005, 11:03 PM Post #9 |
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Defends The Honour Of Aeris
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I think the reason for Cloud's nulled reaction to Tifa untimly demise has to with the fact that she is not the only victim close to him whp perished. In less than 10 minutes his mom, his friend, Tifa and all the residents of Nibelhiem were killed. Being smacked by so much shock, pain and grief all at once can have a delayed affect on emotions. (Trust me I've been there). Also because there was more than one person who he cared for was butchered by Sephiroth the anger and need for vengence is bound to overwelm someone. Zangan himself said that after no longer being able to help the villagers he vowed to kill Sephiroth himself. He came across Tifa by sheer luck. the small but extremly powerful "GIVE IT BACK!!" speech let us know exactly what Cloud's reactions and emotions were. I think he did love Tifa at this point in time (Hell, she was the reason he wanted to get into SOLDIER). But later on when Aeris hit the scene he couldn't choose between them. |
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| Shiva | Mar 11 2005, 12:57 AM Post #10 |
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Legendary Member
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I disagree. Cloud also dealt with the pain and shock of losing Aerith so suddenly. And, yet, he didn't pick up his sword and run after Sephiroth, who was standing right beside him??? Cloud picked up Aerith's body and held her close, weeping, trembling, and screaming. He didn't show any emotion for Tifa whatsoever. I think that, if he truly loved her, she would have been foremost in his mind. Her safety would have been the most important thing to him, as we saw with Aerith so many times. ;) Also, it is my belief that Cloud never LOVED Tifa at all. Maybe as a friend... but romantically??? No. And Tifa did not display any interest in Cloud until he mentioned joining SOLDIER and becoming as powerful and famous as Sephiroth. Then, suddenly, Tifa becomes interested in Cloud. Why? Simple, she wanted to be associated with someone who was powerful and famous. Not only that, but she wanted a famous "hero" to rescue her one day. And so the promise is baseless and selfish. Also, let us not forget that Tifa had to BEG Cloud to make this promise in the first place (yes, asking three times is considered begging). I mean, what do you call this, if not begging...? Tifa: "Come on--! Promise me----!" Cloud said, "What?" twice and then, finally, reluctantly, agreed to it. Let us compare this to when Aerith asked Cloud to be her bodyguard. Cloud readily agreed to become Aerith's bodyguard in exchange for one date (and she only asked once, too). Compared with the "promise" made with Tifa, which Cloud never mentioned again, Cloud proclaimed himself Aerith's bodyguard in front of everyone, even Tifa. Even when Tifa asked him to fulfill his promise after joining AVALANCHE, Cloud did not remember the promise and, even when he did, he blew it off, telling Tifa he couldn't fulfill the promise. Does this sound like he was interested in being her hero? This also makes me believe that it wasn't just Tifa that made Cloud want to join SOLDIER. I think Cloud wanted to impress Tifa and make her notice him because he had a little crush on her. However, I think he wanted to prove himself to everyone in town, including all of Tifa's snotty friends. I also believe that Cloud made his choice very clear. At the end, he vowed to meet Aerith again in the Promised Land. And, Tifa bowed her head, accepting his decision. Her sadness was very clear to me. And yet she understands that she is not the one in Cloud's heart. |
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| Anastar | Mar 11 2005, 01:37 AM Post #11 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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He didn't even know Tifa at that point in time... so how could he love her? Cloud also said that he joined SOLDIER for other reasons. He said that he wanted to become like the great Sephiroth, and he also said that he wanted everyone to notice him - not just Tifa. Let's look carefully at Cloud's words during the Lifestream Event: Tifa "Talk to me. About anything, some important memory to you..." "Now that you mention it, why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place?" "I always thought it was a sudden decision you made......" (Suddenly, the transparent Cloud high above speaks. Tifa doesn't hear.) "......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed." (The Cloud of the well echoes these same words.) "......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed." (The next words come only from the Cloud of the well.) "I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice........." (Tifa nods.) Tifa "Someone has to notice you...? ......who?" (The Cloud above speaks again.) "Who.........? ......You know who! ......You, that's who." (The Cloud of the well speaks differently.) "You......" Tifa "......Me? Why!?" Cloud "Tifa...... did you forget...... about those days?" Everyone always assumes that Cloud is talking about his personal devastation - his crush on Tifa that was never reciprocated. But when Tifa asks him what is he talking about, Cloud talks about the memory of her fall at the bridge. THAT's what he was devastated about. THAT's what caused him a great deal of pain and guilt. THAT's why he got into fights later on. I think the bit about "I was devastated" refers to his memory of her fall at the bridge, not his personal devastation that she wouldn't notice him. |
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| Kusari Yarou | Mar 11 2005, 03:16 AM Post #12 |
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Legendary Member
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Notice that when Zack, his mom, and Tifa die, Cloud's grief is channeled through anger. His head is still clear enough for him to think about revenge. But when Aeris dies, he totally loses it. Even when Sephiroth is standing right behind him, he has his back to Sephy and he weeps over Aerith. Was he ever this emotionally wrecked when he lost someone else? Nope. He clearly has very strong emotional ties to Aerith. |
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| Lost Mercenary | Mar 11 2005, 05:09 PM Post #13 |
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Defends The Honour Of Aeris
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YOU'VE HIT THE HAMMER ON THE HEAD THERE!!! Cloud blames himself for letting Tifa fall and nearly dying that day. He says things like "my stupid weakness" and such and such. This indicates that he can't believe someone loved/cared about nearly died because of him. (Even though it wasn't). I knw I may seem to support Cloti with what I've been saying, but trust me I don't. I'm just trying to analyse the situation from a non-biased perspective. |
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| slowerthanaverage | Mar 11 2005, 07:01 PM Post #14 |
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*somewhat lost*
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Yes Lost mercenary, I think you are quite right. When little Cloud thought he was useless and unable to protect Tifa as a child, he reacted by wanting to join soldier and be like Sephiroth. A little kiddy thinking there, cute nonetheless. You know how a child is like. They want to prove themselves to be strong, to be able to protect their friends etc. That was how Cloud felt, I believe. When Cloud thought Tifa, his mother etc were dead by Sephiroth’s sword, he reacted by wanting to kill Sephiroth. Understandable reaction, afterall he lost much. However, what he ought to have done, was at least to checked on her or help her to a corner *if Tifa had been the top priority on his mind*. But he did none, except to rush straight at Sephiroth (who was in the other room like Kusari said). Instead of Tifa, Revenge was his top priority. When Aerith died, Cloud had an emotional breakdown, even when Sephiroth was just standing right behind him, he continued to mourn for Aerith. This is the degree of emotions we didn’t see for Tifa’s scenes. At that point in time, you can’t help but notice that Cloud didn’t care for the planet or Sephiroth for that matter, but Aerith and his own pain of losing her. And I believed that is the gist of this thread ![]() |
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| Shiva | Mar 12 2005, 08:46 PM Post #15 |
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Legendary Member
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Hey, great points, you guys! I think you are right about Cloud wanting to join SOLDIER to prove to everyone that he wasn't weak (because he felt ashamed at his weakness at being unable to protect Tifa as a child). This makes a lot of sense and actually ties in with AC. Cloud "failed" Tifa back then, during a time he cared for her. And Cloud also failed to protect Aerith, the woman he had grown to care for a great deal, from harm. No wonder he feels so useless in AC and talks about not being able to protect those he cares for.
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