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| Isosceles Iscariot; Thirty years ago... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 4 2005, 10:34 PM (1,530 Views) | |
| Skelly | Apr 21 2005, 07:10 AM Post #16 |
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a strange angel
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JENOVA is very crucial to the plot, but I think of her as a creepy character. :ph43r: I was really freaked out during the flashback-Nibelheim scene. And the part when Sephiroth took her/his/its head. In the JENOVA shrine, I think they were questioning if JENOVA was a fallen angel - that would certainly explain her not having a significant gender (angels never do :ph43r: ), but not the freaky appearance. |
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| Andina | Apr 21 2005, 10:43 AM Post #17 |
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~Absurd~
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But of course, count me in, I love mysteries and Jenova if someone/something is a real mystery.
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| Hyper-Ballad | Apr 21 2005, 11:29 PM Post #18 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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Welcome to both Andina and Materia Thief! Thanks for joining us! ![]()
Well, this is more of a club for the Jenova Project, but I see no reason not to post speculations about Jenova itself! It/she was the consuming focus of the Project, after all. :lol: And MT; I think most fans of Jenova are the ones who find the entity fascinating, as opposed to being actual fans of the, err, character...
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| Materia Thief | Apr 23 2005, 02:15 AM Post #19 |
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yet again, today I loved you
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Yeah, you're right. :lol: I think I wasn't really quite thinking when I posted. |
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| Skelly | Apr 27 2005, 01:47 AM Post #20 |
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a strange angel
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'Tis okay, Materia Thief. Jenova looks freaky, and was pretty malevolent throughout the game (manipulating and trying to kill you and all... ) so I don't think there would be fans of her personality and all but probably about fascination... :ph43r: Don't mind me... I forgot to take my pills today...And there is a fiction written by this author about Jenova, that kind of dove in Jenova's past... but I'm not sure about the URL for it. <_< |
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| Hyper-Ballad | Apr 27 2005, 01:59 PM Post #21 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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I'd guess that it's all fascination, too. After all, there's just so much you can speculate over and create theories about! I think the reason that no-one out there is a fan of Jenova's character isn't so much that she was evil, as much as that she doesn't really have a character, or personality. She only speaks one line in the game, and it's not much to go on. The rest is all speculation. If you feel like discussing Jenova, here are some things you might want to talk about! ![]() * What is Jenova exactly? * Is Jenova female or genderless? * What really happened between Jenova and the Cetra? * To what extent would you consider Jenova to be the true villain of FFVII? * Was Jenova able to puppet Sephiroth? * Did Jenova have any influence over the characters and events of the Jenova Project? * Jenova's possible role in AC. Take your pick!
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| Materia Thief | Apr 27 2005, 11:31 PM Post #22 |
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yet again, today I loved you
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I'll briefly go over my opinions on each, so maybe we can start a discussion. * What is Jenova exactly? I believe Jenova is a parasitic alien being. From where, we can never be quite certain. She absorbs the resources of the planet she inhabits and when all of the resources are used up, she leaves. The cycle continues as she travels from planet to planet (that is until the Ancients finally seal her up, of course! ;)) * Is Jenova female or genderless? Going along with my previous response, I'm not quite sure. Who knows what alien beings 'classify' themselves as. For all we know they could...be...err...asexual? I don't really want to say that they're DEFINITELY genderless, as it's easily apparent that Jenova has a very feminine appearance (with a chest and everything if I remember correctly). Also, she is constantly referred to as "mother", but I don't want to say she's female as, we can never be quite sure unless we find a "male" counterpart to Jenova. I think we can't really classify Jenova. Jenova is...Jenova. The references of "mother" are, in my opinion, just a human's habit of rationalizing and 'classifying' foreign objects into things we can understand. However, I do call her a "she" as it's just easier then continously typing out 'Jenova'. ![]() Did that make any sense at all? :lol: * What really happened between Jenova and the Cetra? I believe Jenova crashlanded into Gaia after 'destroying' some distant, unmentioned planet. The Ancients are curious at the giant crater that she has created and discover her. What contact they had is debatable at best. She might've even befriended them, but we cannot be sure as Jenova's cognitive abilities (or lack of them, for that matter). However, I do believe that Jenova spread some form of disease, a viral infection of sorts which killed off many of the Cetra. The remaing Cetra seal her off and many years later she is discovered by Professer Gast and Hojo, starting the JENOVA Project. ![]() * To what extent would you consider Jenova to be the true villain of FFVII? I believe there are two possible main antagonists. First is Jenova. She is almost literally a puppetmaster bending others to her will. She has powerful illusionary abilities and has an agenda for terracide. While she does seem to be the most likely candidate for the role of "true villain" there's another way to look at it. The second way involves Professor Gast and Hojo. They exploit Jenova, experimenting on her and eventually releasing her. Using her cells, they are the cause of most of the tragedies within the present timeframe of FFVII. However, Professor Gast does leave the JENOVA Project, attempting to 'atone' for his wrongdoings. Also, while this might leave all the blame on Hojo, that is also not the case. First of all, he does not survive to the game, so everything after his death cannot necessarily be attributed to him. Also, for all we know, Jenova could've been controlling them as well all along. We do not know the effectiveness of the Cetra's "seal" upon Jenova. Is it possible that within the 20 year time frame between her discovery and her so-called "burial", that her consciousness and formidable powers of mind were able to escape her 'entombment'? * Was Jenova able to puppet Sephiroth? Yes, I do believe that's the case. Sephiroth, doubtful of his own origins was weak fragile during the Nibelheim episode. When someone is in doubt of their own abilities or actions they can easily be controlled and influenced, even by a simple human being, let alone a powerful parasitic alien lifeform and once she had her grasp upon his mind, she never let go until the end. * Jenova's possible role in AC. Jenova, in my opinion, was never defeated at the end of FFVII. We cannot be sure whether it is even possible to destroy her. The best the Cetra could do was seal her, lending reasonable doubts to her 'destructionablity factor.' The SHM appear to be searching for her and are even trying to create the Reunion once more. I do believe that she'll be a driving force within the plot, if not an enemy in her own right. :) |
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| Skelly | Apr 30 2005, 06:15 PM Post #23 |
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a strange angel
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Sweet. B) This is interesting... What is Jenova... ho-hum. Like Materia Thief, I think of her as parasidic alien, of unknown origin. But if she keeps moving on to another Planet, wouldn't there be no more until she finally dies out of lack of er... energy? Just speculating here, but what if she could've opened up into a new cycle of human beings... ho-hum. ![]() About Jenova being genderless... I think so. She does appear feminine - in Nibelheim - while at times she looks totally mutated. I think it would be better to call her mother, because the power that Sephiroth received - and the other Soldiers - did stem from her, as she was the provider, as the mother gives her womb. It does seem strange to call someone like her father though... Now between her and the Cetra. I'm going to bring up the fanfiction I read and posted about in my uh... last post. Normally, it was said Jenova befriended the Cetra and then betrayed them, unleashing a disease that twisted the Cetra. She was then sealed up and left at that. What if Jenova lived once in another Planet, along with her other specie members (this will probably throw my first topic away ), and another type of Cetra came and took her home? The corrupted Cetra? She fled, and landed in the Planet which the game is based on, and then took revenge, and so on. How very interesting. ![]() Meh, time for me to take a break before my head blows. |
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| Hyper-Ballad | May 5 2005, 09:08 PM Post #24 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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Interesting thoughts, guys! I'll get onto replying properly and giving my thoughts on this a little later (sadly, there's essays to be written and then sleep to be had), but I just wanted to bump the thread and ask you all about a banner - I was thinking of asking CG to please make us one when she can, but I have no idea what sort of image to use. Does anyone have any suggestions? What would you like to see in the banner? Any favourite fanarts or good screenshots? Let me know what you think!
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| Materia Thief | May 5 2005, 11:25 PM Post #25 |
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yet again, today I loved you
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Perhaps something with Sephiroth pulling Jenova down? I'm trying to think of some good fanart, but can't quite remember right now. Hojo.org would be a good place to start however. ![]() I'll keep my eye out and look around. :) |
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| Skelly | May 6 2005, 01:18 AM Post #26 |
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a strange angel
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Hojo.org? There's such a thing? ![]() Hmmm... maybe it could be a collage of pictures of Jenova, Sephiroth, Lucrecia, Vincent, and Hojo. I don't think there would be a lot of Professor Gast's fanarts. :lol: I'm not good with looking for fanart, but I'll try.
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| Materia Thief | May 6 2005, 02:31 AM Post #27 |
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yet again, today I loved you
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Yep! Hojo.org is probably the best (and only) shrine for Hojo! It's also devoted to the JENOVA Project as well. Perfect, yes?
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| Buhon | May 7 2005, 01:09 PM Post #28 |
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modern-day primitive
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Hmmm... a shrine to Hojo... I should check it out :ph43r: Was it ever established in FF7 if Vincent had been injected with Jenova cells or not? Or was he just tinkered with in the generic "science playing God" sense...? Just a random question... |
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| shadowedpuppet | May 26 2005, 10:23 PM Post #29 |
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Vincent Valentine Portrayer
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Lucrecia.... if only I knew where you were. I'll join. Only if you people know where Lucrecia is... |
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| Hyper-Ballad | May 27 2005, 12:59 AM Post #30 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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Then, welcome to the fold, shadowedpuppet! ![]() As for where Lucrecia is...that's a pretty good topic for conversation! Unfortunately, I believe that as of the end of the game, she's dead. I don't believe that she died thirty years ago, or that she's a ghost when you see her in the Crystal Cavern. I think what happened is that she ought to have died (probably from complications during Sephiroth's birth) and could possibly have seemed to be dead to Hojo, Vincent, Gast etc, but all the while the Jenova cells in her keeping her alive and allowing her to regenerate over time. But of course, this becomes a kind of curse, and the poor woman simply can't die no matter how much she may want to. From the Crystal Cavern sequence, I had the impression that she was physically alive, and had survived and endured, but that she was living a terrible and lonely half-life, cut-off from humanity and her body only clinging on. After her meeting with Vincent, I personally choose to believe that she died; not so much because hearing about Sephiroth's death finished her off (I think she only disappeared and embraced solitude again after her reunion with Vincent), but I think that when Holy manifested itself, it would've cleansed her body and allowed her to die and find her son in death. Ah...now I have so much more to catch up with! :lol: About a possible banner, the only group-fanarts I've found are too big to work in a small banner, so we're a bit stuck. I like the idea of using Jenova, but I would like one with Vincent, Lucrecia and Hojo, since they're behind the club's name. :rolleyes: Maybe a screenshot? Like this maybe? ![]() Anyway, I'll keep on the lookout for something suitable, and if you have anything you'd like to suggest, then let me know! ![]() On to the Jenova questions: * What is Jenova exactly? I'm inclined to agree with MT that she/it is an alien parasite. I think she is a unique being (not one of a species or race of aliens) who moves from planet to planet, not feeding, but reproducing because as we can see in the game, she doesn't need nourishment in order to live, so I think her goal would be to reproduce by infecting creatures of other planets (I'd venture to say that it could be living planets which attract her). How sentient she is isn't clear to me. Is she a hugely intelligent being or is she an animal acting on instinct and ironically raised as a goddess-like epitome of perfection? I actually keep changing my mind on this, due to the fact that Jenova is physically dead - so she could have reverted to a state without consciousness, or she could be exerting as much influence as possible using her mind, which did not die with her body (personally, I lean towards the latter option). I think she's conscious and intelligent, but at the same time quite animal-like and governed by instinct - the instinct to reproduce, to reanimate and reunify her body, etc. Either way, I don't think her consciousness or soul is the same as ours, because she's a creature made for (in a sense) eternal life. Obviously, a human mind couldn't cope with that, so I think that her mind must be higher. It's all a part of her alien nature, I believe. * Is Jenova female or genderless? I actually think that she might be female, in a way, because of her unecessary (because she has no use for it) female anatomy, her being referred to as a "mother" creator...and I just find something very feminine about her nature. I just like thinking of her as a Lilith-figure, or a throwback to myths about primal but powerful beings - half woman, half monster, enticing and destructive. I think you're both right about her asexuality, because if she reproduces by infecting the creatures of foreign planets, then she has no need for gender. So why does she look so feminine? It could be that she's "spiritually" a woman, or that her gender is part of the disguise she used to fool the Cetra, or that she only appears feminine to us, but she isn't in her own terms because there is no "male" equivalent to her form. Her appearance might just coincide with our interpretation of what is female. If any of that made any sense. :lol:* What really happened between Jenova and the Cetra? I think that after arriving from the skies, she was approached by the Cetra (who went to the Crater in order to aid the Planet - I think Ifalna says something to this effect) and emerges. I think she draws them to her through illusions and then infects them and begins reproducing through that method, and decimates the Cetra in huge numbers (who possibly go on and create all the species of monster on the Planet?). The humans are spared for the time, because they've given up their nomadic nature and are less likely to come into contact with her (Hopeful - humans are "the corrupted Cetra"; they're corrupted because they gave up their quest to settle the Planet and chose a more material, stable and comfortable life for themselves). Then I think that the surviving Cetra gather their numbers and fight Jenova, and kill her without destroying her body, and seal her away in the Crater. However, the death (and later dismemberment) of her body doesn't kill her mind (possibly because of her own strength, or her inablity to return to the Planet) and so she remains mentally-alive, but totally inanimate. * To what extent would you consider Jenova to be the true villain of FFVII? Tricky question, if I do say so myself! :lol: I think Jenova's evil, while very cunning, manipulative and elaborate, is still purely instinctive and a result of her natural drive and a higher level of consciousness rather than a more "human" malevolence. She doesn't seem deliberately cruel to any of her puppets; she just uses them like extra limbs or tools, and while she seems to have no concept or regard for the individual suffering she causes, I don't think she's causing suffering for the sake of causing suffering, either. She's simply doing what she's always done, what instinct dicates that she continues to do - ethics doesn't come into it, particuarly not human ethics or morality, because she isn't human and is both above and below our concepts of right and wrong, cruelty and kindness, good and evil. While she's responsible for much of FFVII's darkness, I don't find her "evil" enough to be the true villain. In that sense, I think that Hojo is far more villainous, because his actions and choices are directly responsible. The concept of right and wrong does apply to him, and is something he understands but chooses to ignore next to his scientific ambitions. He's responsible for terrible suffering. He does terrible things to his fellow humans, and takes a great deal of interest and pleasure in it, and clearly feels no guilt at all. He has just as must capacity for good as any other character, he had a woman who loved him (or so I believe) and he exploits them. While I think that his actions were influenced by a growing insanity and an obsession with Jenova, and that his evil is a very human sort of evil (as opposed to Jenova's inhuman and impersonal evil), I still believe that he is the main villain of the game. * Was Jenova able to puppet Sephiroth? I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, Sephiroth's strength and powers of manipulation are extremely diluted versions of what Jenova is capable of, and considering his fragile state of mind in Nibelheim, he could easily have been manipulated. On the other hand, his will is too strong to let his soul become part of the Lifestream, so he could easily be thought of as having strong enough willpower to resist manipulation. He's also aware enough to manipulate Jenova's reunion to his own advantage, to manipulate the clones to fit his own agenda (his goal of godhood also doesn't include Jenona at all, despite what he said in Nibelheim about ruling the Planet with her). Also, he's the final boss of the game - you defeat Jenova first. If Jenova was really pulling the strings, how would Sephiroth be able to face you after her defeat? It's possible that both are correct: that Sephiroth was initially manipulated into carrying out Jenova's plans, but then later (probably after that dip in raw mako) regained self-awareness and self-control, and using Jenova to his own ends. * Did Jenova have any influence over the characters and events of the Jenova Project? I don't think so. The people usually suggest this are Hojo-apologists who claim that he was just as much a puppet as any other character. Personally, I disagree, because from what we see in the game only people carrying Jenova's cells can be manipulated by Jenova (which Hojo doesn't inject himself with until the end of Disc 2). If Jenova could control creatures without her cells in them, then I think it would've been much easier for her to carry out her plans, and she could've had everything she wanted much sooner. I think that Hojo clutching at his head just before shooting Vincent isn't to do with being puppeted, just a mental breakdown, or "snapping". So no, I think everything surrounding the Jenova Project was a result of human folly, pure and simple. * Jenova's possible role in AC. Your guess is as good as mine! I think I'll wait and see for this one! :lol: Buhon: You should definitely check out hojo.org - it's a very interesting and informative shrine. ![]() As for your question; it was never established in the game, but I do think that Vincent was injected with Jenova cells as part of Hojo's experiments on him, for may reasons. For one thing, it would explain the red eyes, how he continued to live despite being shot (interestingly, the Erhegeiz manual says that he was killed and then revived) and why he hasn't aged, and it'd also explain his transformations during limit breaks (a common effect of Jenova cells) and it'd further justify his claim that his body is his punishment for his so-called sin. It would also make his suffering and nightmares that much more understandable to us, I think. Another reason is that Jenova cells were still a hot topic at the time, and all of Hojo's previous work with them would have been very controlled, and with Lucrecia and Gast involved. This is very much his first chance to see what they are really capable of, and he's given a free rein to do whatever he likes because Vincent is completely in his power. I think it's hard to believe that he wouldn't use Jenova cells, especially considering his fascination with Jenova, and his general eagerness to transform and mutate living things, just to see what happens. And considering that he shoots Vincent, Hojo really has no reason to resist the temptation. Another thing is how Vincent joins the party: at first he wants to be left alone, but then changes his mind and follows you. I think this could be because of the Reunion, and that Vincent felt subconsciously drawn by it. It makes him follow, which he justifies by asking about meeting Hojo. Like Cloud, he could think that he's pursuing revenge, when in fact he's being called by the Reunion. Does that make sense to you?
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) so I don't think there would be fans of her personality and all but probably about fascination... :ph43r: Don't mind me... I forgot to take my pills today...
I don't really want to say that they're DEFINITELY genderless, as it's easily apparent that Jenova has a very feminine appearance (with a chest and everything if I remember correctly). Also, she is constantly referred to as "mother", but I don't want to say she's female as, we can never be quite sure unless we find a "male" counterpart to Jenova. I think we can't really classify Jenova. Jenova is...Jenova. The references of "mother" are, in my opinion, just a human's habit of rationalizing and 'classifying' foreign objects into things we can understand. However, I do call her a "she" as it's just easier then continously typing out 'Jenova'.
Just speculating here, but what if she could've opened up into a new cycle of human beings... ho-hum.


12:35 AM Jul 11