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| Isosceles Iscariot; Thirty years ago... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 4 2005, 10:34 PM (1,526 Views) | |
| Hyper-Ballad | Mar 4 2005, 10:34 PM Post #1 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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This is a club dedicated to the Jenova Project side-story, and all that went on in Nibelheim and the Shinra Mansion, thirty years prior to the game. For fans of Jenova, Professor Gast, and of course the VincentxLucreciaxHojo triangle. :ph43r: ![]() Personally, I can't get enough of this sublot. I'll read just about anything on it (except for terrible slashfics that somehow turn Lucrecia into the game's ultimate evil... <_< ). It's an aspect of the game that I find terribly fascinating, It's such an interesting story, and of course the characters are intruiging. Such an interesting past that Vincent has! And there's so much going on during that time, and we'll never fully know everything that was happening. It's a cross between a horror story spiralling into deeper insanity, and a twisted soap-opera! Love, darkness, betrayal, insanity, death, scientific experimentaion... And of course, it has a tragic end. It always struck me as a very eerie and disturbing story; and its consequences are incredible. And for those reasons and more, I find it very interesting to read, write and talk about, which is why I'm dedicating this club to the Jenova Project. I encourage anyone with an interest to join! Let's discuss! Note: The club's name is inspired by a fanart of Lucrecia, Vincent and Hojo of the same name by Seraphim Sephiroth, which you can find here. Big News: ~Hopeful_Angel~ has been kind enough to design a club signature for us! Bow to her almighty graphics and her devotion to this group! Thank you so much, Hopeful! Members: Hyper-Ballad (Founder) Kaldea Buhon Bloodbath Materia Thief Andina shadowedpuppet EnglishRose slowerthanaverage Toxo FF_Goddess |
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| Kaldea | Mar 5 2005, 12:56 AM Post #2 |
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fantôme
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Lucrecia and Vincent forever! Hojo is a manwhore! I'll join.
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| Hyper-Ballad | Mar 5 2005, 01:53 AM Post #3 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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LMAO, CG! Welcome to the club! :lol: I'm something of a fan of Vincent/Lucrecia myself, but I don't despise Hojo. I'm actually quite a fan of his, as I've always found Hojo to be one of the most interesting, ambiguous, and complex characters in the game - I always got the impression that what we know about his thoughts and character during the game is just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, we'll never know if he ever genuinely cared for Lucrecia or if he only ever saw her as a walking, talking womb. Well, I disagree with the idea I see in quite a few 'fics that try to portray him as some sort of victim that snapped and was driven to insanity by the whole Lucrecia/Vincent thing, and I also disagree with 'fics that try to shift the blame or try to justify injustifiable actions. But at the same time, I have serious difficulties believing that Lucrecia would've chosen him over Vincent, trusted him, had his child, and allowed their child to become part of the Jenova Project if he was clearly a psychotic, sadistic maniac with no regard whatsoever for human life, you know? So even though I do, to a degree, see him as the ultimate villain of FFVII because of everything he was responsible for, I don't think that he can be defined as just that: it's far too simple and black-and-white, and that kind of view doesn't really do justice to his character. I think it's easy for people to forget that during the game, Hojo is what he became, that he'd developed into the man he was over his entire life. Plus, I've always believed that nobody's born evil, that he was as human as any of us at some point... Ah, life is sweet when you're a natural-born ranter like me. Anyway, thanks for joining, CG! It's good to have you here, as always.
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| Buhon | Mar 5 2005, 08:05 AM Post #4 |
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modern-day primitive
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aha! excellent... it's about time someone devoted some attention to this subplot! I'm quite fond of this "second triangle" and all associated parties involved. Though I too see Hojo as an ultimately evil character, I do believe there is a degree of depth to him that is barely explored in the game. As for Lucretia, I think we discussed her role back in the day: there is an old Roman myth about a woman named Lucretia, who was raped and who committed suicide in order to preserve her purity. The forum came to the conclusion that the Lucretia in the game had her innocence taken advantage of in the sense that she seemed to have been a young ideologue who was caught up in what she believed was the "science of improving the quality of life" that Shinra was reported to be providing, and therefor was seduced into falling in love and carrying the "son of Jenova" by her own naivite that Hojo capitalized on... Anyway, sign me up! Umm... how do you add a "sig"? |
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| Hyper-Ballad | Mar 6 2005, 06:09 AM Post #5 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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Ah, another enthusiast...welcome!
If you'd only like to have text as your signature just go to "My Controls" and on the bar to the left, click on "Edit Signature", and then include the text, and click on the "Update" button. If you'd like to include an image as a signature, Anastar provides detailed, step-by-step intructions here. I hope this was helpful! :lol:
Thank you very much! I love this sublot, so I couldn't resist trying to draw in anyone else who might have an interest! ![]() The goings-on of the Jenova Project and the "second triangle" are probably my favourite subplot of FFVII. I think I find it so fascinating because we know so little about what was really going on - after all, despite the fact that the events we see in Vincent's flashback sequence reveal quite a bit, the scenes we see could be interpreted in many different ways. And I share your fondness for "all associated parties involved": I think it's their ambiguity that makes them so interesting (we'll never know what Vincent was like prior to thirty years of suffering, Hojo is as enigmatic as always, and Lucrecia leaves a very strong impression for a character we know virtually nothing about), because it's so interesting to speculate over their characters and of course the intricacy and complexity of their relationships. I like to think of each of them playing a part in their own fates, too. I mostly agree with your take on Hojo; he's twisted, ruthless, icy, insane, sadistic, and far more capable and dangerous than other character probably ever imagined, and if he ever had the ability to feel compassion for others, he's long lost it. But at the same time, there's a kind of humanity to his madness as well. By the time you confront him at the Mako Cannon, I had the impression of someone who's mind and sanity has completely rotted away over the years. And I think it's clear that there's much more to him than meets the eye. But his humaity justifies nothing; it just makes his actions slightly more terrifying. And it all adds up to why I find him such an interesting character...and I know that I completely underestimated him the first time I saw him in the game. There's so much we can only speculate about, though...for example, if he never felt anything for Lucrecia at all, why shoot Vincent during a confrontation? And if there's logical explanation for killing him...why experiment on him instead? I always thought that there was something personal behind his actions towards Vincent; something that made him bitter and vicious enough to act so sadistically... There's also Sephiroth to consider - as the game progresses he becomes more and more consummed by thoughts of Sephiroth, but more with the pride of an artist for a creation that went beyond and re-defined his original expecations than that of a father for a son... Anyway, I also love your ideas about Lucrecia...and the reference to Roman Mythology (are you citing the myth of Tarquin and Lucrece?)! I actually see her in a very similar light myself. I can easily see her as someone whose innocence and naivite are used as weapons against her. I always imagined her as being quite easily taken in by not only her own curiosity, dedication to science and trusting nature, but also the prospect of doing something for the sake of science, something that would do more than help her career, but improve the world as well. But at the same time, we need to keep in mind that she's an intelligent woman, and less likely to be anyone's dupe...I think she was also taken in by the possibilities participation in the Project would've opened for her, as well as the idea of being the vessel through which an ancient and perfect race is reborn. Though the game makes is clear that her child comes to mean far more to her. I'm curious...you described Lucrecia as being "in love" with Hojo (though due to manipulation, deceit and false charm on Hojo's part than anything else); so what's your opinion on Lucrecia and Vincent's relationship? What do you believe she felt for him? Thanks for sharing your ideas, Buhon! ![]() And here's some quotes if anyone's in a mood for analysing:
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| Buhon | Mar 30 2005, 08:19 AM Post #6 |
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modern-day primitive
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Nobody else is paying attention to this club? For shame people! Such an intricate subplot too! Gosh, such touch questions, Hyper. This story is an entire plotline in of itself! I got the impression that Lucrecia genuinely loved Vincent, but that she a) let her desire to use science to better the lives of other, and B) perhaps her feelings of sympathy towards Hojo, to force herself to make/allow herself to be manipulated into making the ultimate sacrifice. I think naivite on her part ultimately did her in. Whether or not Hojo was a sympathetic character, or an evil manipulator, in this instance I'm undecided. Hopefully Dirge of Cerberus will tackle these issues head on... More on those other quotes later... |
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| Skelly | Mar 30 2005, 11:44 AM Post #7 |
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a strange angel
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Oooh... I want to join! I agree Hyper, this is like a dark, twisted soap-opera spiralling into the depths of insanity and horror. However, I don't think of it as a subplot (to me, subplots are plots that are not necessary to the game), I think it has a very major role. But, I want to ask your definition of a subplot. ![]() I have never heard of the myth of Tarquin and Lucrece, but could you tell me? I see no reason for Square not to put in mythology, mainly because some parts of the game contain it. Examples can be: Nibelheim: Celtic (I think) dimension which is like a frozen Hell Odin: Celtic (again, I think) Leviathan: the large water snake that holds the world together by biting its tongue (Celtic, I think again) Bahamut: hmmm... he's actually a fish that carries a bull holding the world on his back, but Square places him as a dragon. ![]() Like Buhon, I hope that Dirge of Cerebus will clear some of this up. This is mostly based on Vincent and what he went through during the JENOVA project, right? |
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| Hyper-Ballad | Apr 20 2005, 10:47 PM Post #8 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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I've replied at last! Sorry for taking ages to do this! :rolleyes: Hopeful: Yes, Square put a lot of mythology and cultural references into all their games, and you've got some good observations. ![]() The myth of Tarquin and Lucrece is explained by Buhon in an earlier post, I believe. It's a Roman myth - as I remember it, a man boasts a great deal about his wife, Lucrece's, great beauty, and an associate of his, Tarquin, is very impressed by his description and decides to seek her out and see if she lives up to the praise. As it turns out, Lucrece is in fact much more beautiful than her husband described and Tarquin feels great lust for her. He attempts to seduce her, but she refuses him, and he then rapes her. Lucrece is, naturally, destroyed by this. She undergoes much emotional torment of living with her "shame", and when she later learns that she's carrying her attacker's child, and kills herself to get rid of her shame and to preseve her purity. There's much more to the story when the truth comes out and all hell breaks loose and ends in war and death, but that's all of Lucrece's involvement in the story. Shakespeare adapted a lengthy poem based on the myth, which he titled The Rape of Lucrece, if you're interested.
What an interesting question! I suppose I would define a subplot as a plot in a story, but which isn't the central storyline. But I agree with you that this is a plot which is vital to further understanding of the story and characters and is centrally important to game. I suppose I called it a "subplot" because learning about this part of the story is optional - while Hojo's involvement is something that isn't optional, gaining Vincent and finding out the whole story is...so I guess that's what led me to call it a subplot. But I see where you're coming from! ![]() Buhon: About Lucrecia's feelings for Vincent, it's something I'm a little divided about. I believe she genuinely cared about Vincent, as they seem to have a close relationship: they talked together often, were close enough for Vincent to develop such a strong and passionate love for her (and possibly believe that she felt the same, and would accept him) and for him to feel it was well within his boundries to try and intervene with the Project by openly voicing his protests and making his reservations clear to Lucrecia. And from the fact that she calls out for both Sephiroth and Vincent at the crystal cave, I think he's still very much in her heart. There is a sense of connection and intimacy there, however sad and self-defeating. However, even though I think he was important to her (enough to make Hojo feel like shooting him and destroying him) and don't doubt the strength and sincerity of her feeling, I'm not sure if I can say that she truly loved him in a romantic sense. She seemed to reject him not only in the flashback sequence (her actions such as pulling her hands away, shaking her head and running away suggest to me that though she cared about him, it wasn't in a romantic way) but also in the Crystal Cavern. I saw some warmth but not what I'd call a reciprocated romantic love. And though I think she was manipulated to a degree (both by Hojo and her own delusions), I'm inclined to believe that her feelings for Hojo were sincere, which is very tragic (I don't doubt that these feelings are long dead, though). I don't think we were shown that dramatic kiss for nothing. I don't get the impression that Vincent and Lucrecia were in love and that Hojo tore them apart; just that Lucrecia chose Hojo and that this was her undoing.
I'm somewhere in the middle on this; I don't see him as a victim in any way, and believe that he is fully responsible for his actions. Though it's difficult to guess what he was like as a young man. There must have been something that made Lucrecia love or sympathise with him. I don't see him as some innocent and idealistic scientist that was manipulated by Jenova, and think that he must have always been emotionally distant and obsessed with his work and becoming a more respected scientist than Gast. I do to a degree see him as sympathetic and human because much of his thoughts and motivations are so ambiguous and interesting, as well as the complex issues of his relationship with Lucrecia and his hatred for Vincent. He's a dark and complex character, and one I find hugely interesting.
I agree! :lol: |
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| Andina | Apr 20 2005, 10:54 PM Post #9 |
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~Absurd~
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Ah, fans of the fascinating Jenova Project. I just ran into the best Jenova fansite I've seen so far. So many articles, so many facts and so many speculations. Go check it out, sweeties. It looks good and is very informative. ![]() http://jenova.org/jenova/ |
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| Hyper-Ballad | Apr 20 2005, 11:35 PM Post #10 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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Thank you for the link, Andina! ![]() Would you like to join our group? |
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| Skelly | Apr 21 2005, 01:18 AM Post #11 |
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a strange angel
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I think I remember that website... It's very detailed, no? I think I found that a few years back, but thanks for bringing it up again, Andina! The essays and such are very interesting... but I think JENOVA freaks me out too much. :lol:
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| Materia Thief | Apr 21 2005, 01:39 AM Post #12 |
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yet again, today I loved you
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I'd like to join please! I'll analyze the quotes a little later, but about the mythology links that ~H_A~ brought up:
Both Odin and Nibelheim are technically "Norse", but they're easily confused with the Celtics (The Norse were the Vikings). Odin is the head god of the Norse Mythology, very wise and powerful, but he is also very capable of making mistakes. There are obviously many myths surrounding him, but I won't go into them at this time. Nibelheim is probably derived from the word 'Nifleheim', you are correct in saying that it is frozen hell however. Nifleheim is the lowest level of 9 (?) Norse "worlds". Nifleheim is ruled by a goddess known as 'Hel' and is the resting place of all who died except those who died in battle. Leviathan has many origins from many places. You are correct that it is mostly portrayed as a large water dwelling serpant, but I think the most common origin is Hebrew, not Celtic. You are 100% correct with the Bahamut legend though. |
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| Skelly | Apr 21 2005, 05:12 AM Post #13 |
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a strange angel
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Thanks MT! I wasn't really sure about it, because I read that book a year ago or so. Thanks again.
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| Buhon | Apr 21 2005, 06:27 AM Post #14 |
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modern-day primitive
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excellent, thanks Andina. This is a great site... and I agree, Jenova doesn't get enough attention (and what an eery, creepy, mysterious villain she/he/it is...) perhaps we should have a club for ... it... as well? lol (I'll respond to Hyper's thoughts later... too tired, lol) |
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| Materia Thief | Apr 21 2005, 06:29 AM Post #15 |
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yet again, today I loved you
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No prob! I'm just a mythology geek. ![]()
That'd be err...interesting. :lol: I'm not quite a fan of Jenova, but I do find his/her/its character fascinating.
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12:34 AM Jul 11