| Welcome to Cloud x Aerith forums! We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Grief; Just speculating here... | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 24 2005, 07:39 PM (501 Views) | |
| Hyper-Ballad | Jan 24 2005, 07:39 PM Post #1 |
|
Heroine addict since 1997
|
I've been mulling over this in my head for a while: An argument I hear now and then against C/A is that Cloud doesn't show any real grief after Aeris is buried and the group move on from the Forgotten City. I don't agree with it at all, of course, and I think it's very clear from what Cloud says after Aeris is killed that he's traumatised and distraught. She's the one person he never thought he'd lose and the one person he cherished the most. Out of all the losses he's suffered in the past, Aeris' death definitely hits him the hardest, to the point that he breaks down and finally lets go of all that hurt and all his strong feelings as he rants at Sephiroth. But what about afterwards? This is what I hear a lot of C/Ters argue: that after her death he stops showing any sort of grief and gets over it and moves on pretty quickly (they then move on to argue that Cloud's strong emotional reaction was just shock, rather than realization of a terrible loss). It's true that Cloud doesn't openly grieve and suffer the way he did in the Forgotten City, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't feel anything at all. After the inital grief, Cloud does calm down a lot. He calmly picks Aeris up and lays her to rest, and then when he talks to the group afterwards he swears revenge in a very quiet and calm way. This doesn't mean that he decides to get on with things (it is his general attitude, but let's not forget that he's a very sensitive and tender guy, much more so than he'd be willing to admit), but it just shows how detached he becomes. He's struggling with a lot of powerful feelings at that time - the pain of grief and loss, his tender feelings towards Aeris, the disillusionment of having a future without her and of course, total rage at Sephiroth. That's a lot of conflicting emotions there. It must be painful and confusing enough to try and just get through all those feelings; he's probably too hurt and confused and angry to focus on one . He keeps his feelings to himself, pushing them down, just feeling them rather than showing them, and the party moves on. In my opinion, he's probably doing his best not to even think about his grief, and trying his hardest to take his mind away from it and just focus on finding Sephiroth and having his revenge. I actually find this the most depressing and painful part of the game (except perhaps the conflict with Shinra and Hojo in the Crater when Cloud begs for a number, or later when Tifa finds Cloud in Mideel - I really hate to see him suffer). And this isn't just because Aeris is dead, but the whole atmosphere is so bleak and hopeless immedeatly afterwards, until Tifa wakes up in Junon when the atmosphere changes and all the action works as a distraction. Up until that point though, it's as if if all the life is taken from the game. The reason - in my view - is because of Cloud. From Aeris' death till the first confrontation in the Crater, all the game's focus is on Cloud, and I think that the reason the atmosphere is so grim in those parts is because of his terrible grief that he doesn't completely understand. He doesn't express it outwardly, he just tries to cope with it. After Aeris' death, there is a noticeable change in Cloud. Up until he recovers in the Lifestream with Tifa's help, he completely sinks into himself. He doesn't joke, doesn't deomstrate much concern, barely reacting to anything until Sephiroth confronts him about his memories. He's much quieter and more serious during this part of the game. And it's not because Square are too lazy to make lots of dialogue during the Northern Contient sequence; it's because he doesn't feel like talking. And what's there to talk about? He's only feeling two major things at this point: pain and determination. That's what the entire journey from the Forgotten City to the Northern Crater suggests to me. He's hurting, no matter how much he wants to will it away. In my opinion Cloud's feelings of grief, pain and loss all there and present, just in a more symbolic way. After all, the game gets depressing enough directly after her death, I guess Square thought that the audience really didn't need to see Cloud mourn deeply and intensely. And after all, Cloud keeps so much of his feelings to himself - no matter how much pain he's in, I doubt he'd be able to express it openly. So it's expressed in a different way, a way that will effect the players and give a look into Cloud's mind without resorting to open expression. It's all in the landscape. The Crater could've just as easily been in the middle of a desert or volcano or something, but Square decided for it to be in a frozen northern contient. The first place you go to is Icicle Village, then you get lost in the snowfields, then you scale Gaia's Cliff, before arriving at the Northern Crater. Each location gets bleaker and bleaker. All this time, you're travelling through a frozen wasteland, which I think this reflects Cloud's state of mind. Everywhere you go to gets colder, wilder, darker and more and more isolated and remote. I think all these frozen, icy locations beautifully express Cloud's pain and confusion. This pain and confusion all comes to a head in the Crater, when he loses himself. A lot of things contributed towards that final breakdown - the hurt in his past, his many unresolved feelings, the holes in his memory, his insecurities about his identity, his fear, the things he's done he can't explain, Tifa's lack of support, Sephiroth's manipulation...but the loss of Aeris contributed to him reaching that final breaking point as well. Do you think Cloud would've succumbed to Sephiroth's will as quickly is Aeris was alive, with him, showing her faith in him? The horrible grief over her death he'd been repressing and bottling up inside him just made everything worse for him. It made his pain and confusion overwhelming and he crumbled. Maybe that's the reason the music playing when Tifa sees Cloud in Mideel is called "Off the Edge of Despair". A lot of people think the title refers to Tifa (because she feels total despair in that particular sequence) but I always thought it was more aimed at Cloud. He's like the personification of despair at this point in the game. He's let all the loss and confusion break and cripple him to the point that he gave up on himself (even though inside, he's still fighting it and trying to find himself - he just needs Tifa's aid). And I think supressed grief over Aeris' death plays a big part in driving him to this awful point. Thank goodness that's not where his story ends! :rolleyes: I think I've made it all sound far too angsty, as if Cloud's never coming back from that state of mind, but he does, and it's one of his greatest achievements. He finds himself, and in doing that he finds strength in himself and his crisis dissolves leaving him emotionally strong and able to cope with his feelings and move on (even if I think he still feels deeply for Aeris and never really lets her go...). Whew...that turned from speculation into a bit of a rant, but it's been on my mind for ages, and I hate it when people claim that Cloud doesn't grieve. The poor guy really does suffer at some points, so FFVII fans ought to give him a little more credit! So what do you think? Agree? Disagree? Tell me your thoughts on this!
|
![]() |
|
| Seii Monogatari | Jan 24 2005, 10:51 PM Post #2 |
|
Fishy McLuv Carp
|
I agree, and that was beautifully written!! ![]() When people say Cloud didn't grieve over Aeris, I want to smack them! The clarity should be revealed when they look at him in AC. He isn't happily in love with Tifa. He didn't smile ONCE. Until he spoke with Aeris, he had lost all hope and didn't even want to live or help fight the SHM. He wanted to DIE. He continues to guard Aeris's grave and live in solitude rather than move on with Tifa. What does that tell you?! Clotis can be *so* dense sometumes ... <_< |
![]() |
|
| Kaldea | Jan 24 2005, 10:56 PM Post #3 |
![]()
fantôme
|
Cloud wanted to show strength. He isn't the kind of character who would break down crying like a little baby. He DID show signs of crying when he held Aeris's body in front of Sephiroth according to what he said. Those words aren't meaningless. He described in detail what he was feeling because he never felt that way before. Not even when Tifa got slashed with Sephiroth's sword. Everyone grieves differently. And coming from CloTi girls, no, Cloud won't weep into a pillow for the rest of his journey saying how much he wants Aeris back like a baby while completely forgetting why he was on that journey in the first place. Cloud is a real MAN. He won't let hormones or emotions get in the way of his goals. Which is why he wasn't attracted to Tifa once he moved. He grew out of his hormone stage. NOT ONCE in the "present" game (meaning no flashbacks) do you see any sign of Cloud being attracted to Tifa. But you DO see signs of grief. Like I said, not everyone grieves the same. Cloud kept it bottled up so he wouldn't get distracted from the journey ahead of him. And now that he has defeated Sephiroth, he shows PLENTY grief and guilt over Aeris's death. There is no other side to this. Cloud grieved whether you like to admit it or not. And so did Tifa. |
![]() |
|
| Nya | Jan 24 2005, 10:57 PM Post #4 |
![]()
Member
|
Yeah did Cloud laugh/smile or whatever after Aerith died? No, and boy he didn't do any of the sort when he was with Tifa. Besides if Cloud acted all depressed all the time, how was he going to save the planet? He needed to believe in himself, be strong etc, and Aerith taught him that =D |
![]() |
|
| Hyper-Ballad | Jan 25 2005, 12:44 AM Post #5 |
|
Heroine addict since 1997
|
Very well said. :) In the game, Cloud does show grief, he just isn't consumed by it. A lot of anti-C/A people seem to think that they're both the same thing - if he isn't shown to be totally eaten alive by his grief, then obviously he doesn't feel anything at all and couldn't care less.
And yet a number of C/Ters seem to think that nothing less than this is "real grief". I remember one C/T fan bringing up a (very false) argument that if Tifa had died instead of Aeris, Cloud would've acted like this: she claimed that he would've gone overboard with grief and wouldn't have been able to cope with it. She then said that she actually thought that Cloud would've killed himself because of his grief...! Are we talking about the same guy here? Cloud would never respond to loss like that. I hate this sort of disregard for his actual character and personality just for the sake of some 'romantic' idea/belief. |
![]() |
|
| Buhon | Jan 25 2005, 10:35 AM Post #6 |
|
modern-day primitive
|
Excellent post Hyper Ballad, but this particular quote of yours particularly struck me:
An excellent observation! I never noticed that... the bleak, cold wasteland immediately following Aerith's death as symbolic of Cloud's grief. Actually, there's even MORE evidence that lends support to your idea - it is while travelling in the frozen north that you come across Aerith's hometown, and encounter a poigniant scene in Aerith's house about her past that certainly tugs at the heartstrings. So, yeah, it definitely seems like a symbolic representation of Cloud's silent grief and general state of mind. |
![]() |
|
| Anastar | Jan 25 2005, 02:06 PM Post #7 |
|
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
|
Everyone's made very good points, and Hyper-Ballad's post is excellent. It's so true that everyone expresses grief in different ways, and that it would be out of character for Cloud to be crying in his pillow about it. I think his grief is expressed in different ways. Cloud isn't the type to show his grief outwardly - he'd turn it inward, and we can still see the effects of that in AC. He is still grieving even now, and the effects of it are clearly seen in Cloud's character in AC. |
![]() |
|
| Aerith_kun | Jan 25 2005, 02:38 PM Post #8 |
![]()
"DeMoNīs DoNīt CrY"... by Anderson O_O
|
Wow, Hyper_Ballad, itīs a very good point and I agree totally with you *_*... Cloti people sometimes say stupid things, like Cloud didnīt feel sad or despair with Aeris death or that he ONLY feels guilty for her in AC ŽŽ... A good point the thing about the locations and the state of mind of Cloud U.U... Other thing that I want to say is that japanese people never show their feelings, and eventually, Cloud doesnīt cry like a baby... For japanese, show them is a demonstration of weakness... Have you seen Subaru in X-1999 anime/manga?? Or some tragic character in some anime serie. When Seishiro is killed by him, heīs in shock and cryes, but then he doesnīt show anything... Itīs like he was death or something, and he doesnīt want to fight... But it doesnīt mean that he doesnīt feel sadness or grief for Seishiroīs death... He apparently is good, but inside he is despair... The same with Squall when he thinks Rinoa goes to death. Does he show sadness or dispair?? No, but heīs really afraid... Cloud doesnīt smile after Aeris death, with the exception of the hand... When Cloud sees Aeris hand he smiles, and itīs the only time that he does after Aeris death... And in Advent Children his colour isnīt blue anymore... Itīs the black, and he wants to die... Well Clotis can say that they want ŽŽ... |
![]() |
|
| Sefie | Jan 25 2005, 04:53 PM Post #9 |
|
Eyes of dream-water
|
Yes HB! VERY good points! Especially about the frozen wastelands. I'd never thought of that... |
![]() |
|
| Materia Thief | Apr 17 2005, 04:05 AM Post #10 |
|
yet again, today I loved you
|
Fascinating post, I think your obsevations are very keen. ![]()
I think this is a very good point. Ever since he was little, Cloud wanted to be strong, believing it would lead himself to being popular and loved. He says so in the lifestream: "If I could just get stronger... Then even Tifa would have to notice me...". Cloud tries to avoid failure and weakness whenever possible. He doesn't reveal himself to the town when he finally returns because he didn't make it into SOLDIER. Even after telling everyone he would make it in, he didn't, he's a failure. He WANTS to be the hero, fighting gloriously and returning home victorious. Openly showing grief, while acceptable for woman in many societies, is seen as a sign of weakness in men in most cultures. Such as the saying: "Boys don't cry." Men aren't supposed to be weak. They're supposed to be soldiers, marching on towards the future, brave, strong and proud. So Cloud DOESN'T cry. Even after catastrophes happen, he still marches on. After Tifa is stabbed and his hometown (and mother) are burned to ashes, he doesn't break down, he goes and kills Sephiroth instead. The only time he actually shows even a little despair is after Aeris dies. I don't remember, but when Rinoa is unconscious/in a coma or whatever, does Squall ever cry? We know definitely know that Squall loves Rinoa, but does he ever cry or show open despair? |
![]() |
|
| Tifa Lockheart | Apr 17 2005, 12:16 PM Post #11 |
|
Unregistered
|
Cloud's grief wasn't obvious... ...in the sense that he did not show it to people around him or even expressed it verbally to them or made them feel (maybe) that he's in grief. Based on observation, most men are caught up in pride and reputation... like in a patriotic sense, they should always be the strong one and the emotionless ones so that they could prove to the world how strong they are. Cloud is one of those who want to show that they're strong so that maybe his other companions could remain strong too, despite maybe the grief that Tifa must've felt too when Aerith died (hey, I believe she liked Aerith as a friend too) or even Yuffie or Vincent or even Barret (and the rest of the gang). Those Cloti who said that Cloud never showed grief upon Aerith's death were being very literal, they're not looking into the depths of Cloud's character. They just take things literally, they don't analyze the situation well, they underestimate Cloud too much and base him to their expectations that he doesn't give a rat's ass about Aerith at all. *whew*
|
|
|
| Buhon | Apr 17 2005, 11:41 PM Post #12 |
|
modern-day primitive
|
Good point, Tifa. And, I think your point can probably be expanded to the Cloti perspective in general - they look at "surface information" and don't delve deeper into the psyche's of the character or notice the subtleties and symbols that are hiding in layers. |
![]() |
|
| Carmencita | Apr 18 2005, 01:09 PM Post #13 |
|
The Rag Doll
|
I'm gonna go repeat things already said here.... Sorry! ![]() Yeah, Cloud isn't the type to show his emotional pain outright, since he kinda knows that he's the one that people trust to handle things and showing grief on the exterior might show how vulnerable he is. But not showing grief doesn't mean he doesn't feel it. Even though he attempts to hide it, it's kind of obvious by the way he talks, the way he regrets Aerith's loss. It's sort of like a wound that he wants to hide--like his Geostigma, now that I think about it--just to try to make everything remain status quo or something, even after Aerith's death, to avoid trouble more than anything. I mean, he's a guy right? I've read in magazines and stuff that that's what guys do. As for the Clotis... I guess they didn't bother looking beyond the pixels, and into the human character that Square-Enix created for the movie... so, yep, most things that they say are based on the physical level more than anything else. :wacko: Bah. Whatever. |
![]() |
|
| Hyper-Ballad | Apr 18 2005, 03:28 PM Post #14 |
|
Heroine addict since 1997
|
And yet, a lot of them have great insight into all the deep and complex feelings of love, fear, anger, grief, sadness and confusion that Tifa was keeping locked inside her heart and hiding away behind a facade...but somehow with Cloud, what you see is what you get?
|
![]() |
|
| Buhon | May 7 2005, 01:21 PM Post #15 |
|
modern-day primitive
|
Ladies with oversized chest-pillows love dumb, blonde, superficial men...
|
![]() |
|
| « Previous Topic · Cloud x Aerith's Love · Next Topic » |









7:17 PM Jul 11