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| Resolving The Love Triangle; Will Square do it in AC? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 29 2004, 12:59 PM (1,791 Views) | |
| Clerith-son | Apr 17 2005, 07:43 PM Post #31 |
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In the middle of dawn. Staring at the twilights.
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Yes, there is a Love Triangle, but a psicologycal one, not a Love Triangle that can be worked with, like in the game. See, in the game there was 2 girls trying to make Cloud be with them (each one respectively), and Cloud that couldn't define his feelings, now in Advent Children, that one of the girls is dead, even if Cloud still has feelings (love?) for her, the Love Triangle can't be played as it was in the game.
I don't think that he can't enter the Promised Land without Aerith's help, I think that he can do it by himslef. I think that the biggest difference between humans and the Cetra, its perception, see the humans saw the Planet as something they could explode, in order to have profit or comfort, but the Cetra saw the Planet as somthing sacred that should be respected and been take care of, and this respect was rewarded with the Promised Land. Cloud doesn't seem to follow any of both perceptions in paricular, but he has saved the Planet already, also has shown that somehow he can comunicate with the Planet, thing that was suposed, that only the Cetra could do. This is why I say that he can get to the Promised Land by himself. |
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| Anastar | Apr 17 2005, 09:03 PM Post #32 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Ahhh, I see what you mean. No, it can't be played the same way that it was in the game, and it is more psychological now. However, it is still possible that Cloud may end up with Aerith at the end of AC if he dies. It is also possible that Cloud may end up with Tifa if he lives, although I think it's more likely that Cloud will end up alone if he lives.
I've always thought that Cloud could get to the Promised Land by himself, too. I'm just saying that if nothing else, I don't see why Aerith couldn't lead him there. Those that say Cloud can't make it to the Promised Land claim that the Promised Land is for the Cetra only. They get that from Elder Hargo saying this in Cosmo Canyon: "The Promised Land is the resting place of the Ancients" "It doesn't exist for us, but it did for the Ancients" You can see Elder Hargo's speech here: http://www.geocities.com/ffseriespics/ElderHargo.htm We were debating the Cloti points about that in this thread: The Promised Land I've always agreed with you, though. :rolleyes: |
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| PassiveAggressive | Apr 17 2005, 10:42 PM Post #33 |
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If Cloud does somehow survive in the midst of all that exists in the movie, and if he does somehow end up alone, I would like somehow at least for it to be shown that he's forgiven himself completely and has the resolve to move on. I don't want to see him remain emo for his sake. Granted, if proof of his love for Aeris is further explored and somewhat solidified I'll be floored, but for Cloud's character sake, as a video game icon so he'll contain some dignity, I'd like him to accept that though she may be dead he can't structure his life around the deceased, but remember and cherish that was had in life. |
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| Anastar | Apr 18 2005, 02:03 AM Post #34 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Which is better? Living a solitary life that gives you meaning, or being in a relationship that makes you miserable? Given that Cloud has spent two years travelling on Fenrir and working with the orphans, it seems to me that Cloud has already found meaning in his solitary life. Cloud has apparently spent no time just agonizing over his situation. For all we know, Cloud has moved on in the only sense that he is capable of - alone. If Cloud were nearly as "emo" as everyone assumes, then he'd be sitting in a cave someplace doing nothing but agonizing over what happened, but he hasn't. Instead, he found something meaningful to do with his life. Cloud was never a socialite. He spent 14 years on his own in Nibelheim. He spent five years in a lab, either in a solitary cell or with one cellmate - Zack. Again, that's hardly a "normal" situation. Living a solitary life is nothing to be ashamed of, and it certainly doesn't mean that you don't appreciate life. Just because Cloud isn't with Tifa doesn't mean that he hasn't already moved on in his own way. |
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| PassiveAggressive | Apr 18 2005, 02:58 AM Post #35 |
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Obviously our opinions differ, but I do find Cloud's behavior different from what it was in-game. From what's stated in the trailers, he's given the insinuation that he practically gave up. Since I don't have anymore time to elaborate, I'll leave it at my belief that Cloud does portray emo-like behavior. You assume Cloud would be miserable in a relationship in which I'm assuming you mean Tifa. Anything could happen, and in my opinion, the game pretty much left it to where anything really could happen. |
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| Clerith-son | Apr 18 2005, 03:10 AM Post #36 |
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In the middle of dawn. Staring at the twilights.
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I understand your point that Aerith could lead him to the Promised Land, but I just wanted that he could do it by himslef. As for what Elder Hargo's speech consist, once and again I'll bring up my previous point. It is just matter of perception, I think that when he says that the Promised Land is not a place for humans, he is refering to humans by their actions, see the only ones that really cared of the Planet were the Cetra, but the humans just saw the Planet as something they could explode, and the Promised Land, is a place where only the ones who really cared about the Planet can enter. I think that the Cetra is the group that is selected to be in the Promised Land, and a signal of being a selected one, is to be able to comunicate with the Planet. ____________________________________________________________________ What does "emo" means? ____________________________________________________________________
I think that if he hasn't been able to find happiness with Tifa or anybody else until now, he'll never find it. He had 2 years to find out if Tifa was his true love, or to get over Aerith's death, but insted he only thought about Aerith, and how he couldn't protect her. So that takes me to the conclusion, that, without Aerith, life has not a meaning for him? |
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| Anastar | Apr 18 2005, 04:31 AM Post #37 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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In my opinion, Cloud is acting very much the way he did in-game. He is also reacting very normally for someone who has a terminal disease, especially when he knows it is uncurable. Cloud was driven by a purpose for most of FFVII, and that "purpose" has been missing in his life until the SHM came around in AC. What I'm suggesting is that Cloud hadn't "given up" on everything like people are assuming, but that he had moved on in his own way. Even though Cloud hasn't "moved on" according to your own standards, he may very well have "moved on" by his own standards. Given that he has lived much of his life as a solitary person, and joining in with Avalanche was in fact unusual for him to do, it's quite normal for him to be alone. He found something meaningful to do with his life by helping the orphans. He hasn't let go of his guilt, no... but it hasn't totally incapacitated him, either, or else he wouldn't be helping the children and travelling on Fenrir. Cloud found something meaningful to do with his life during the last two years by helping the orphans. He found something that he wanted to do by travelling around on Fenrir. Isn't that moving on with his life? It may be as much "moving on" as Cloud will ever do because he doesn't want anything more than that.
Basically, it means that you are overwhelmed by emotion. Some people believe that Cloud wasn't characterized by angst during FFVII. They believe that the angst-ridden Cloud we see in AC is out of character.
Hmmm... that's possible. Yet, Bugenhagen was able to listen to the Planet. He was also able to hear the consciousness of the Cetra in the Forgotten City explain the use of Holy in Disk Two. Do you think Bugenhagen made it to the Promised Land? When Elder Hargo said that, "The Promised Land is the resting place of the Ancients." "It doesn't exist for us, but it did for the Ancients", I've always thought that he meant that the *concept* of the Promised Land doesn't exist for humans. For example, you could also say that Heaven is the resting place for Christians, and that it doesn't exist for Hindu's. Why? Because Hindu's believe in Nirvana rather than in Heaven. ;) I think Elder Hargo was simply saying that the Promised Land was part of the Cetra tradition and culture, and that it didn't exist in the tradition and culture of the human population. |
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| Hades' Daughter | Apr 18 2005, 07:32 AM Post #38 |
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Cleris Extremist
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Buhon:
I very much so agree with you, Buhon. Either way, risks will be involved. In that case...I personally feel that they're much better off writing the storyline however they want instead of focusing so much on the fans. I suppose I'll certainly be impressed with Square though, if they manage to keep their fans at least satisfied with AC's ending kept "open". Clerith-son:
It's how I see things too. If Cloud was ever going to get in a relationship with Tifa, I feel that he would have already done so at the end of the game. He never did...and two years later, he's still not with her. It's probably why I feel AC wouldn't make much sense to me if he suddenly ends up with her at the end of it.
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| Anastar | Apr 18 2005, 12:33 PM Post #39 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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I agree with you both. IF Cloud fell in love with Tifa during FFVII, like the Cloti's want to believe, then he would be with her now. IF Cloud and Tifa cuddled all night and confessed their undying love to one another under the Highwind, like the Cloti's want to believe, then Cloud actually ditched Tifa after the game. IF Cloud were in love with Tifa, then he'd be wanting to fight against Geostigma in order to be with her. Does not being in a relationship with Tifa mean that Cloud hasn't moved on with his life, however? Does living a solitary life mean that Cloud hasn't moved on with his life? If Cloud gets rid of his guilt during the movie and lives, people are thinking that Cloud will move on with his life. I'm suggesting that Cloud already has moved on with his life during the last two years by finding something meaningful to do by helping the children. Cloud lived a solitary life before FFVII. Why should he transform into a social person in order to "move on"? I'm suspecting that Cloud has moved on as much as he will ever "move on" because it's actually in character for him to live a solitary life. |
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| Kaldea | Apr 18 2005, 04:58 PM Post #40 |
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fantôme
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Angst is in his name. Literally. To say Cloud WASN'T "emo" in FFVII would mean that you have to stop taking that crack while playing for the sake of degrading Cloud's good name. Cloud is no where "out of character" in AC. He just chose to express his feelings more openly in AC than in FFVII. He hid in FFVII. He chose to hide his emotions, only letting them out in his worst times. Why? Because he was the leader of the group and he knew he had to be strong for everyone. Especially when he has an especially emo girl asking him to tell her everything is ok. :rolleyes: He isn't the "leader" in AC any longer and he isn't bound by others to show leadership qualities. In other words, he's himself now with nothing stopping him from being that way. In AC, this is the real Cloud. Not some forced leader, this is him. So let's stop falling for his outer layer and/or appearance in FFVII, shall we? I am sick of people who don't think about the depth of Cloud and judge him on the charade he played to mask who he really is. ESPECIALLY when it comes to last generation SD graphics and second rate translation of text. Time to watch and learn with real animation and VOICES. Again, I cannot stress this enough, AC Cloud is the raw Cloud Strife. Deal with it. Besides, a character can't be "out of character" when it is the character's creators that are the ones making him that way. It's called "character development". It's a lot more common than it seems. And this is coming from someone who has studied his character since the game came out. And for A+ college assignments yet. I think I have a bit of credibility behind my conclusions. |
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| Hyper-Ballad | Apr 18 2005, 06:03 PM Post #41 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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While I agree with everything you just said (and you have no idea how much I want to hear more about your college assingment...), I just thought I ought to point out that it can be argued that instead of developing Cloud's character, SE's just revising his character. I've seen many cases when the original creator can be at fault (don't get me started on the canon Mary-Sue!), and I suppose a lot of fans who don't buy into emo-Cloud would accuse SE and Nomura of badly-done revisionism. In most cases, when a writer revises his story, it's to add more detail or clarify something, and it usually works a treat, but there's been a lot of instances when creators completely lose their integrity. I've seen some examples of writers completely butchering a character and/or past relationship of characters (usually in TV and movies, the most common method of making a new relationship win support is to discredit the old one) just to make the current storyline and characterization make more sense, and seem a little less OOC, bowing to the demands of fangirls and the Almighty Dollar. A creator can make a character OOC when s/he gives in to public demand or tries to revive a plot by changing and revising a character to fit with what the audience wants, despite it being contrary to the creator's original intentions. Though I don't buy it myself, I guess a lot of fans would accuse SE of revisionism just to fit in with fan-perceptions of Cloud.
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| Clerith-son | Apr 18 2005, 07:07 PM Post #42 |
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In the middle of dawn. Staring at the twilights.
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I think that Cloud's character, so in the game and in the movie, is is the same, but expresses himslef differently. See, in the game Cloud rather be alone, than with people that he might let down, and now he wants to be alone because of his feelings, also when he was a child, he was a loner, being lonely is the only thing that Cloud has learned to do well, that can't be changed, even if he moves on, that doesn't mean that he'll be a social guy, being a loner, that's his way, that's Cloud. I always saw him so distant to the group. So cold, with everyone, even with Tifa, wich was supposed to be his whole life friend. And even when the other characters wanted to get close to him, he managed to stay alone. The only character that I saw, that he didn't teared apart, and that somehow he felt attached to was Aerith, it was when I realized that, when I became a Cleris. An now that Aerith is gone, I think that he has chosen to move on, but by his own means, wich are to take care of those children, as Aerith did, like his way of moving on was to continue Aerith's job. |
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| Kaldea | Apr 18 2005, 07:43 PM Post #43 |
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fantôme
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One thing that argues the theory that Square is only meeting fan demands with making Cloud more emotional is the fact that fans aren't asking for Cloud to be anymore upset and emotional than he is in the game. The "loudest" fans are wanting him to forget everything and move on, right? And I seriously doubt many people WANT him to be alone and full of angst. I don't see Tetsuya suddenly saying, "Hmm... I think I'm gonna dump my version of Cloud's character just to please the majority while pissing off the rest." And Tetsuya would be the last to "revise" Cloud's character when so many people fell in love with Cloud himself. Not a new version of Cloud. In fact, I can see many problems that could arise in changing Cloud and how he deals with things. The only way someone could make Cloud "OOC" is to make him "happy with life", forget all that he has been through and turn him into a hormone driven teen wannabe. Cloud is extremely complex and very few people are willing to recognize that in fear of not being able to relate to him or his relationships. |
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| Clerith-son | Apr 18 2005, 07:59 PM Post #44 |
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In the middle of dawn. Staring at the twilights.
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I'm sure that no one can say it better than you. What a perfect observation, of the people's point of view on him. Yes, indeed he is an extremely deep, and complex character, but I think that people look at him, as a puppet, that should follow a certain path, just to fullfill their own desires, and forgeting that even if he's a fictional charcater, he is something that in his own fantasy world, has feelings too (talking about the surealistic world in people's mind). Cloud is Cloud, and will always be Cloud, his ways will always be the same, that's what makes him Cloud. People should start respecting him. |
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| Hyper-Ballad | Apr 18 2005, 08:42 PM Post #45 |
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Heroine addict since 1997
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What I mean is that I think the Happy!Cloud fans are accusing us of demanding an angsty Cloud, and argue that most fans are drama-queens who can't percieve depth and meaning in anything except moping. To a degree, I can see where they're coming from because if only I've lost count of how many fanfics feature Cloud committing suicide for Aeris' sake... Don't forget that the fandom usually does Cloud a terrible diservice, and that many fans have an inaccurate perception of his character, so they can't have fallen in love with Cloud himself, just what they're imposing on him.
Amen, CG. It seems strange to me that there are people out there who won't concede to his complexity - it's an aspect that nearly defines him! Cloud isn't the kind of character you can sum-up in a sentence. There's so much more to him than meets the eye, and you can't stick one single label on him. He's a character that demands speculation, intelligence, imagination, thought, curiosity, insight, sympathy, time and probably a bit of good ol'-fashioned wierdness to understand. :lol: But there's no need to be intimidated by that. He's not a carboard cutout; he's fascinating, and alarmingly human.
Hear, hear. This is truly a day for admirable statements! |
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8:45 AM Jul 11