Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Cloud x Aerith forums! We hope you enjoy your visit.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Strifelover; For those who love Cloud!!
Topic Started: Dec 4 2004, 09:26 PM (18,802 Views)
Hyper-Ballad
Member Avatar
Heroine addict since 1997
I'm not saying that he has no angst at all - I'm just towing the line somewhere in the middle. :lol:

Just because I wouldn't call it "angst", doesn't mean that I think that Cloud ought to be totally fine and dandy after FFVII's ending. There is a light-hearted, confused and dorky side to him, but saying "Let's mosey" once isn't indisputable evidence of complete emotional and psychological stability and harmony. :whistle:

I guess I'm trying to present the other view, if you will (with a reasonable argument, of course), because even though I wouldn't stamp and scream that he's OOC, I can see where the people who claim this are coming from, to a degree.

And while it's true that Cloud was emotionally and psychologically manipulated, puppeted, lied to, the victim of a harsh and lonely childhood, suffered from guilt, felt terrible regrets, had his spirit broken, transformed into a catatonic vegetable, subjected to Lord-knows-what kind of experiments at Hojo's hands, and made witness to the deaths of people who were very close and dear to him...it doesn't totally dominate him. He doesn't brood over every one of these problems - the memories, the guilt, and the fear haunt him, but I've yet to see him complain about his time as a vegetable, or even his childhood.

I'm not saying that he isn't affected or scarred by the things that have happened to him (in fact, I think these things have left a mark that will never go away, even if all his problems are solved in AC by Tifa's Magical Happy Healing Love... :sick: ), but I wouldn't call it "angst" either. It seems far too simple a term for such a complex emotional state. To move on your comment about Vincent, I'd have to say that calling him an "angsty" character is not only inaccurate but also quite an injustice to what he went through, but the point of difference is that Vincent spent thirty years reflecting on his so-called sins (another point the OOC-brigade might make is that Cloud never uses the word "sin" in the original game, which means he's being angsted-up, but I always interpreted it more as Cloud trying to speak Vincent's language than being turned into Vincent #2). Cloud is trying to do something, he's being active rather than passive - even if he's passively accepting death it's because he's actively trying to find Aeris, and find a way of meeting her again.

Angst suggests to a lot of people a state of mind in which someone can't feel anything other than their own misery - a state of mind in which a person doesn't fight their misery, but completely indulges it. This is why a lot of people can't stand it any more. It suggests shallow self-absorbtion to them, and a refusal to do anything about their problems except sit down and feel bad about them.

I guess, like I said before, maybe it all boils down to personal definition. While I agree with you that Cloud has suffered deeply and will always be affected by that, "angst" just isn't the word I'd choose... :rolleyes:

What does the term mean to you, Anastar? What examples can you find of your definition of it can you point out in the game? I'm just curious that you clarify what you personally mean by "angst" and how you find it consistent throughout FFVII, KH and AC. ^_^
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Anastar
Member Avatar
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Hyper-Ballad
Mar 2 2005, 01:41 AM
Angst suggests to a lot of people a state of mind in which someone can't feel anything other than their own misery - a state of mind in which a person doesn't fight their misery, but completely indulges it. This is why a lot of people can't stand it any more. It suggests shallow self-absorbtion to them, and a refusal to do anything about their problems except sit down and feel bad about them.

I guess this is where our definitions of angst differ. I don't see angst as self-absorbing. When angst is self-absorbing, it turns into a state of depression. And when I say depression, I don't mean temporary sadness - I mean it in the sense of an actual psychiatric diagnosis. Feeling down is one thing - actual depression is another. Angst is defined in Mirriam-Webster as "a feeling of anxiety, apprehension, or insecurity", which is different from a state of actual depression.

Angst means to me that someone isn't a happy go-lucky person with no cares in the world. It means that someone has been pyschologically and emotionally scarred by past events in their life to the point that it effects their general personality. I see being scarred by past events as different from being crippled by past events.

That's why I also cringe when people say they want to see Cloud have a happy ending and find peace at the end of the movie because that sounds to me like they expect to see Cloud with a smile on his face and everything transformed into a bright and shining world of opportunity for Cloud where all of his problems are solved and he has no more cares in the world. Cloud perceives the world in such a way because he is characterized by angst that I don't think Cloud can ever find such a state of eternal bliss. Sorry, but it ain't gonna happen to Cloud.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kaldea
Member Avatar
fantôme
Quote:
 
I guess this is where our definitions of angst differ. I don't see angst as self-absorbing. When angst is self-absorbing, it turns into a state of depression. And when I say depression, I don't mean temporary sadness - I mean it in the sense of an actual psychiatric diagnosis. Feeling down is one thing - actual depression is another. Angst is defined in Mirriam-Webster as "a feeling of anxiety, apprehension, or insecurity", which is different from a state of actual depression.

Angst means to me that someone isn't a happy go-lucky person with no cares in the world. It means that someone has been pyschologically and emotionally scarred by past events in their life to the point that it effects their general personality. I see being scarred by past events as different from being crippled by past events.


EXACTLY how I feel. That's why it makes me mad to say that Cloud wasn't full of angst and they think Cloud was some Tidus clone in terms of personality. Cloud was talkative (and he needed to be as a leader) but that doesn't mean he wasn't "angsty". And in AC, he's finally not "everyone's leader" which lets him do what he wants and show how he really feels. If Cloud isn't full of angst in FFVII:AC, people have a horribly wrong idea of what angst is.

And I do see Cloud being happy and finding peace at the end. But the only way I see him finding these things is if he dies and he meets Aeris again. I can't see him as being happy alive. Like Vincent. I doubt Vincent wil ever be truely happy again and he is supposedly immortal.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Anastar
Member Avatar
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Cloud's Girl
Mar 2 2005, 06:44 PM
EXACTLY how I feel.  That's why it makes me mad to say that Cloud wasn't full of angst and they think Cloud was some Tidus clone in terms of personality.  Cloud was talkative (and he needed to be as a leader) but that doesn't mean he wasn't "angsty".  And in AC, he's finally not "everyone's leader" which lets him do what he wants and show how he really feels.  If Cloud isn't full of angst in FFVII:AC, people have a horribly wrong idea of what angst is.

I guess the real dispute is whether he was an angst-driven character in FFVII or not. He's certainly full of angst in AC, but some people are saying that it's OOC for Cloud because he wasn't characterized by such angst in FFVII. Of course, these are the same people who have always believed that he danced merrily off into the sunset with Tifa on his arm after the events of FFVII. ;)

Cloud's Girl
 
And I do see Cloud being happy and finding peace at the end.  But the only way I see him finding these things is if he dies and he meets Aeris again.  I can't see him as being happy alive.  Like Vincent.  I doubt Vincent wil ever be truely happy again and he is supposedly immortal.

Yes, I think he would find happiness with Aerith if he dies and meets her again. Is Cloud capable of happiness if he continues to live, or will he be forever marred by the events of his life?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kaldea
Member Avatar
fantôme
I think it would always affect him in life. Even if he did get with Tifa. She isn't exaactly the type to be able to effectively cheer him up and heal him. No matter how big her chest is. :rolleyes:

And Cloud isn't out of character if the same people who made him and his story, and made a direct sequel of him created him to be that way. I could also say that Yuna is horribly out of character in FFX-2 with that logic too. But she just evolves with her surroundings. And if Cloud gets more angsty as the days go by, so be it. Doesn't mean he is "out of character". It means he is developing.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Anastar
Member Avatar
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Cloud's Girl
Mar 5 2005, 01:10 AM
I think it would always affect him in life.  Even if he did get with Tifa.  She isn't exaactly the type to be able to effectively cheer him up and heal him.  No matter how big her chest is.  :rolleyes:

Yeah, that's the way I see it, too. He's not just shrugging off what happened, and I doubt that Cloud will ever be able to put it behind him to the extent that some people expect while he's alive. I don't expect him to crawl into a coffin about it, but I do expect he would remain alone.

Cloud's Girl
 
And Cloud isn't out of character if the same people who made him and his story, and made a direct sequel of him created him to be that way.  I could also say that Yuna is horribly out of character in FFX-2 with that logic too.  But she just evolves with her surroundings.  And if Cloud gets more angsty as the days go by, so be it.  Doesn't mean he is "out of character".  It means he is developing.

Or that he hasn't been able to cope with it. I wonder about his guilt in regards to Aerith, though. He did everything possible, yet he blames himself. It strikes me as more like a displacement of feelings. Young children will sometimes be "angry" at a parent who dies. What they really feel is grief, but they express it as anger. Could it be that Cloud is really feeling grief for Aerith, but expressing it as guilt? :unsure:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kaldea
Member Avatar
fantôme
That's very possible. The thing that makes me wonder is that he didn't immediately turn ino "guilt-ridden AC Cloud" right after Aeris dies. Maybe over time he didn't know how to grieve so he turned it into guilt for "letting her die"?

That or he had to get things out of the way like beating Sephiroth and finding his past first. Now that he has done those things, Aeris's death is haunting him more than ever since he doesn't have a journey to focus on. :unsure:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Anastar
Member Avatar
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
I've always felt it was what you put in the second paragraph - that he was so immersed in revenge against Sephiroth in Disks 2 and 3 that he didn't "have time" for the guilt, so to speak. That happens in wartime, too. Soldiers keep going and shutting out their feelings while still on the battleground, but go home and get depressed over what happened once the feelings are allowed to surface. Once Cloud had defeated Sephiroth, he didn't have the reason to keep going that he had before. It wasn't until then that the grief started to overwhelm him.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kaldea
Member Avatar
fantôme
That's also why I don't see any relationship happening during FFVII with Tifa. Cloud was too focused on Sephiroth. CloTis seem to think that Cloud and Tifa's story IS FFVII while completely ignoring the whole theme of the game. <_<
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Anastar
Member Avatar
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Cloud's Girl
Mar 8 2005, 03:37 AM
That's also why I don't see any relationship happening during FFVII with Tifa. Cloud was too focused on Sephiroth. CloTis seem to think that Cloud and Tifa's story IS FFVII while completely ignoring the whole theme of the game. <_<

Exactly... Cloud was too immersed in feelings of revenge and guilt and anger against Sephiroth for him to be falling in love during Disks Two and Three. Things weren't nearly so intense during Disk One before Aerith's death and the summoning of Meteor.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kaldea
Member Avatar
fantôme
Indeed. People are so closedminded, it's disgusting. <_<

Oh, and according to Microsoft Word, synonyms of angst are as follows:

anguish
torment
anxiety
trouble
sorrow
worry
fear

Now say again how Cloud isn't full of angst? In fact, "strife" is a direct meaning of trouble. The proof is in his name even. And we all know how relevant Square's choice of names are to the characters who have them.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Anastar
Member Avatar
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
LOL! You could practically use Cloud's name to argue that he never fell in love!! Of course, the same argument could be used against him loving Aerith, too. Oh, well.... scratch that theory. :lol: It does argue for Cloud being alone, though. :rolleyes:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hyper-Ballad
Member Avatar
Heroine addict since 1997
Anastar
 
He's certainly full of angst in AC, but some people are saying that it's OOC for Cloud because he wasn't characterized by such angst in FFVII.


I think that this is what's at the heart of the angsty/OOC debate. Do you consider Cloud to be full of angst in the original game? Is he characterized by angst alone?

Cloud's Girl
 
Oh, and according to Microsoft Word, synonyms of angst are as follows:

anguish
torment
anxiety
trouble
sorrow
worry
fear

Now say again how Cloud isn't full of angst? In fact, "strife" is a direct meaning of trouble. The proof is in his name even. And we all know how relevant Square's choice of names are to the characters who have them.


You see, the difference with me is that I would use one of those synonyms (the "strife" one is wonderful!) much sooner than I would use the term "angst" because of the modern connotations that angst has... :unsure:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kaldea
Member Avatar
fantôme
I don't change my feelings on the meaning of angst over how people today feel it should mean. Angst is angst. Cloud is full of every one of those words during FFVII, some more than others at times. Cloud hides his feelings and he doesn't outwardly express them. Angst doesn't have to mean OBVIOUS angst. As long as you're feeling it inside. And it's obvious to me since I do notice every little thing in FFVII, including Cloud's everlasting emotional rollercoaster ride.

No characters are characterized by angst alone in FFVII. FFVII is unique because each character has a depth that doesn't allow the simple characterization of anyone. Everyone acts how they do because they all have their ways of expressing how they feel. Everyone doesn't have to act like Vincent to show that they are feeling angst of any kind. Vincent acts the way he does because that is his preferred way of expressing how he feels. Cloud expresses his emotions differently but that doesn't mean they feel the same way on the inside.

At the time of AC, Cloud changes his way of acting. But again, that doesn't mean he got more depressed. It just means he decided to show it in a different way.

Angst shouldn't be characterized as how someone acts. Angst is inner struggle. You can't say someone isn't feeling angst if they just don't act like they have it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Anastar
Member Avatar
To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Cloud's Girl
Mar 12 2005, 07:12 PM
I don't change my feelings on the meaning of angst over how people today feel it should mean.  Angst is angst. Cloud is full of every one of those words during FFVII, some more than others at times.  Cloud hides his feelings and he doesn't outwardly express them.  Angst doesn't have to mean OBVIOUS angst.  As long as you're feeling it inside.  And it's obvious to me since I do notice every little thing in FFVII, including Cloud's everlasting emotional rollercoaster ride.

I completely agree. Cloud's in a great deal of turmoil during FFVII for most of the game. After all he's been through, who wouldn't be? I particularly like what you say here:

Quote:
 
Cloud hides his feelings and he doesn't outwardly express them.  Angst doesn't have to mean OBVIOUS angst.  As long as you're feeling it inside.

Exactly. Even if Cloud doesn't outwardly express his angst, it's still quite obvious that he's going through a lot inside. He shuts a lot of it inside, but different comments make it pretty obvious what he's struggling with inside. Angst-filled Cloud in KH is the same Cloud you see at the end of FFVII and the same Cloud that you see in AC. They've kept him completely in character.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Clubs · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Affiliates
.: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :.