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Strifelover; For those who love Cloud!!
Topic Started: Dec 4 2004, 09:26 PM (18,803 Views)
Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Trying to put a main character with the girl you like better regardless of the story is ridiculous to me. I look at the plot of a story to see who the main character should be with.

What I saw in the story was Cloud vow to meet Aerith after the hand reach scene. The hand reach scene meant to me that Cloud and Aerith wanted to be with one another again. To me, Cloud vowing to meet Aerith meant that he had chosen to find Aerith rather than stay with Tifa. That told me that Aerith was in his heart, not Tifa.

Regardless of which girl I liked better, I accept that as being what the story was. It has nothing to do with which girl I liked better. The way I see it, the Cloti's are simply trying to rewrite the story to mean something it doesn't just to suit what they want the story to be. They're choosing to ignore what the story really meant just because they want to see it turn out differently.
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Kaldea
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fantôme
Exactly. The whole ending scene to me, was like Cloud choosing which girl he loves. He didn't say anything to Tifa even though he had her right there. It was all about Aeris. CloTis are just plain stubborn and immature in their little quest to be right. <_<
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
I completely agree, CG. That's what I saw in the ending of the story, too. How anyone can dream up any different meaning for the ending is beyond me. I've heard all the Cloti reasonings, but they all sound far-fetched and ridiculous to me.
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Kaldea
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fantôme
I am sure they did see quite well that Cloud was only about Aeris in that scene, but as usual they CAN'T acknowledge Cloud/Aeris proof in front of their precious fellow CloTis. So they suggest things and since they can't find any other way of seeing it, they go with it. It's the only way they can be so fierce about Cloud loving Tifa. :rolleyes:
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Not only that, but it should be obvious by now that he doesn't love Tifa. If Cloud loved Tifa, he'd want to be with her now. He wouldn't have gone to the Church without telling her and hide the fact that he has Geostigma from her if he loved her. Cloud wouldn't be feeling so guilty and worthless if he felt loved by someone whose opinion he cared about, either.
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Kaldea
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fantôme
Poor Cloud... So many people use him and don't care about what he wants.

This whole situation is much like child Cloud coming across an ice cream stand while walking home from school or something. There are two ice cream flavors he really likes but his favorite isn't there although he does have it at home. Also, the fact that he could have it made for him right there in front of his eyes appeals to him. So what should he do? Should he save his money, go home and make himself an ice cream cone of his favorite flavor or should he have his second favorite made for him right there? He also couldn't possibly have enough room in his stomach for both.

Don't ask me where that came from. :blink:
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Toxo
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Nå kidding.
Hey-hey! (I'm not Palmer. Really.) I want to join! :D
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
W00t! I'll add you to the list right now, Toxo! :D

Cloud's Girl
 
This whole situation is much like child Cloud coming across an ice cream stand while walking home from school or something.

That explanation sorta went right over my head. :lol:

I like the idea of young Cloud choosing ice cream, though! :D Ben and Jerry's new ice cream flavor: Chocolate Cloud. :woot: Yum! :lol:
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Kaldea
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fantôme
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Feb 27 2005, 08:36 PM
Ben and Jerry's new ice cream flavor: Chocolate Cloud. Yum! :lol:

Woah! I'd have some of dat! ;) :whistle:
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
I can't stand it when Cloti's talk about how Cloud is OOC in KH and AC because of his angst. <_< I remember how they griped about his characterization in KH, saying that he was OOC in it because of his angst. Then the previews for AC come out, and we see Cloud in a state of angst. Instead of realizing that his characterization in AC just proves that Cloud was an angst driven and tragic character in FFVII, they're saying that he's also OOC in AC. How stupid is that? <_<

They wanted to believe that Cloud danced happily off into the sunset with Tifa on his arm at the end of FFVII. They just don't want to admit that they were wrong.
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Kaldea
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fantôme
Wait... "Out of Character because of his angst"?!

....

OMFGTHOSEIDIOTSNEEDTOACTUALLYPLAYTHEDAMNGAME!!1

I am so making a section for that on my site. <_<
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Hyper-Ballad
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Heroine addict since 1997
I'm kind-of split between both views. And while I don't want to see Cloud dancing off into the sunset with Tifa, I guess I'd settle for him sorting things out one step at a time, maybe meeting new people, getting a job or something and finding a way to pay for all those nice clothes and expensive sunglasses. :lol:

I think it all comes down to how you define angst, perhaps. To a lot of people, it's become a word with very negative and simplistic connotations and is synonomous with words like "mopey", "whiny", "brooding", etc. To a lot of people, angst has become a pretty simple term that describes very juvenile emotions (I'm thinking of stuff like "teen-angst" right now...). So, when it comes to characters, a lot of people feel that "angsty" is a very cheap term for only flat and under-developed characters. If you take that view of it, then the things that trouble Cloud are far more deep, complex and inward-reaching than typical "angst". For a lot of fans, terming his struggles as "angst" would be to cheapen his suffering and typecast him as a character.

While Cloud has every reason to angst and does suffer a great deal, and is probably highly sensetive to this, in the original game, he doesn't angst in the same way as Vincent does. He doesn't stay in the same emotional state and brood over and over about things. His mental strength is too much for that. Instead, he keeps moving. He deals with his feelings. He tries to change things. He never stops fighting.

In the original game, there's much less overt (and I said "overt") focus on Cloud's feelings of guilt, especially over Aeris and Zack's deaths. There are feelings of inadequacy, of failure, and while guilt is definitely there, it's more implied than outrightly stated. And there's not much to suggest that these feelings would hold him back from moving on, making peace with himself, and building some sort of life in which he can be happy.

In KH and AC, we see that that isn't the case. These implied feelings are holding Cloud back. And then a lot of fans see him as stuck in an angsty rut which is OOC etc...

Personally, I think it's all a bit of a misunderstanding. What a lot of people forget about Cloud in KH and AC is that even if he is emotionally tormented in a more overt way, he's still moving. He hasn't given up. He isn't just sitting down and doing nothing. In searching for Aeris, whether it's out of love, guilt, or simply the need to resolve his feelings for her, he's in pursuit of happiness. This isn't something your typical cardboard cutout angsty stereotype would do.

So for me, Cloud is far too rich and complex a character to be defined as just angsty, because it's such a restrictive term, with so many bad stereotypes attached to it. But that doesn't mean the guy doesn't have very serious emotional traumas and damage that will probably take a lifetime of healing.

Personally, I think the term "angst" is the real villain here. So many people interpret it in different ways... <_<
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
If the term angst is used to describe such simplistic emotions, then why is Vincent considered angsty? Vincent didn't just stay in his coffin. He got out of the coffin when motivated by revenge against Hojo and to see Sephiroth destroyed. Vincent moved on in that sense, and didn't let his guilt get in the way. He hasn't returned to his coffin in AC. Yet, he is considered an angsty character throughout the game and AC despite the fact that he has "moved on" in a sense.

So why is angsty so acceptable for Vincent, but not for Cloud?
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Hyper-Ballad
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Heroine addict since 1997
Well, I can hardly speak for the entire fandom, but the reason could possibly be because Vincent is a character defined more-or-less completely by his angst. Cloud is defined by more than that. ^_^
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Anastar
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
Cloud is a very complex character, but angst was definitely a part of his personality. Cloud only smiled once during the entire course of the game. Cloud regretted things he had done, was used and controlled by Sephiroth/Jenova, was submitted to laboratory testing against his will, saw friends and his mother killed, was turned into a vegetable in the Mideel hospital, struggled with rejection during his childhood, struggled with fear of himself after the Temple of Ancients, and a host of other problems during the game. Similar to Vincent, what motivated him the most was the desire for revenge against Sephiroth. I see angst as being a huge part of Cloud's character development within the game and awfully hard to miss.
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