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好意 / Kōi / Koui Discussion
Topic Started: Sep 24 2016, 09:40 AM (794 Views)
Jon Snow
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khaleesi ♥
So, we have all probably heard the cloti arguments regarding the Japanese word " 好意 / Kōi ", they claim that the usage of "koui" in the quote about Cloud's childhood crush indicates that they are in love currently. They have often cited other FF couples that have had "koui" associated to their love as proof of it "confirming" cloti, as well. They've pretty much entirely made it out to seem as if this "euphemism for love" was only ever used for romantic and confirmed FF couples.

But, uh... How come TLS has never spoken about Eiko's "koui" usage for Zidane?

Posted Image

Or Quistis' "koui" for Squall?

Posted Image

Or hell, Brother's "koui" for Yuna:
Posted Image

(Jessie also has this word used to describe her "love" for Cloud).


All I've ever heard from TLS is that "koui" was only used for "canon" couples... and I couldn't ever see this on TLS' scan because it was just too small (which makes it impossible to see the "koui" word going from Eiko to Zidane).

Could it be that this word doesn't suggest "canon" couples, but rather--more accurately--describes "feelings of affection" (platonic or not) like Hitoshura himself admitted to based on the Japanese dictionary Goo;


Quote:
 

Koui
The feelings of friendship and affection. Also used as a euphemism for love.


Japanese text:

こう‐い〔カウ‐〕【好意】
その人にいだく親しみや好ましく思う気持ち。愛情の婉曲的な表現としても用いられる。



First, there has never even been a relationship chart saying Cloud <-- koui --> Tifa. The only thing they have is the 25th Anniversary Ultimania quote about Tifa discovering Cloud's PAST crush when he already moved on:

thelifestream.net
 
Despite Cloud’s childhood feelings for Tifa, as well as the statement that even during the game’s present he would have been happy to learn that she reciprocated them, one may argue that more present-day information than this and the Highwind scene is needed to arrive at a conclusion that Cloud is in love with Tifa during the present.

Relevant to this, there are at least three Ultimania quotes that speak of the Lifestream sequence and say the feelings revealed then that Cloud had for Tifa when he was young are still the feelings he has for her in the present — meaning that the statement made by Cloud’s subconscious (“He’ll be delighted for sure!”) means exactly what it sounds like. Furthermore, two of these quotes also refer to Tifa’s feelings for Cloud during that time.

From playing the game, we all know the feelings they learned about were one another’s mutual interest in the other. These quotes say they’re still holding those feelings.

The first of these comes from pg. 25 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega, where the timeline from Tifa’s profile discusses the Lifestream sequence from Disc 2:

(translation by Quexinos)

Although Cloud has been holding favor for Tifa since earlier, Tifa’s interest in him didn’t begin until the time of exchanging their promise. That may have been due to the loneliness caused by her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely due to the promise he made to become her hero.

Incidentally, Tifa didn’t realize he held favor for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called out for it to just be the two of them, she was clueless?


Japanese text:

クラウドが前からティファに好意を抱いていたのに対し、 ティファのほうはクラウドに関心がなく、 約束を交わした時点から彼をしはじめる。周囲の仲良しがつぎつぎと自分のそばから去ってしまった寂しさもあっただろうが、それ以上に、 自分のヒーローになってくれると約束してくれたことが大きかったのだろう。

ちなみにティファは、 クラウドか自分に好意を抱いていたということに、 ライフストリームで告げられるまでまったく気づいていなかった。呼び出されてふたりきりになっているのに、結鈍感?



Furthermore, I just found this page that Quexinos asked about this very issue (I don't recall TLS ever acknowledging or speaking about this, so this is news to me):

AllExperts.com:
Posted Image

(Archive #1 | Archive #2 )

Interesting, isn't it? :fish: How this Expert says immediately that this quote is saying that Tifa discovered Cloud's feelings when he no longer felt that way, proving that the "koui" was past tense.

Edited by Jon Snow, Sep 24 2016, 09:54 AM.
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Julia
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oooh! interesting... thank you stray \o can you post it on tumblr? :O
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Jon Snow
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khaleesi ♥
I will, but I always post on here first because it's less likely to cause rabid clotis to send me hundreds of messages. And honestly, with that annoying crosstagger in the clerith tags I'm getting really pissed off and in the mood to destroy cloti fallacies. :fish:
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Beatrix
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Stray Arrows
Sep 25 2016, 01:26 AM
And honestly, with that annoying crosstagger in the clerith tags I'm getting really pissed off and in the mood to destroy cloti fallacies. :fish:
I hear you. It pisses me off too. This guy is on a "gotta piss off as many clerith fans as possible because I hate them and I want to see their world burn" crusade and isn't really hiding it. I'm not saying anything on Tumblr because my life is pretty shitty right now and I don't want more (and pointless) drama... but rest assured that anytime I see his posts in the clerith tags, I eyeroll hard and wish we could kick people like him off tags. It's like surprise porn in the tags of games you like (random example : Xenosaga :no: )... it stinks.
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Jon Snow
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khaleesi ♥
That's the whole reason why I'm so pissed off. Clerith fans like you could be already having a shitty time and just want to relax and have positive fun and then this asshole comes in and ruins it. That's always been why I've been so stern with cloti crosstaggers, I don't really like thinking about the fans who don't need more shit on their plate dealing with these asses. And I'm about to go off on them.
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pandatumble
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Ohh this is actually really neat! I don't know how the Japanese language works but 好意 in Chinese does not explicitly mean mutual love. It merely means that a person holds feelings of affection for another person or they get a good vibe from the other person and see them as a potential love interest. In Chinese, affection worded this way is lower than outright saying "I like you". Makes me wonder how 好意 and 好きcompare in Japanese.
Edited by pandatumble, Oct 2 2016, 08:39 PM.
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Hikari Seishin
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Some kinda rabid...
The word 'koui' alone doesn't indicate mutual romance, so in the case of Eiko-Zidane it's a one-sided 'like'-type thing.

However in the case of this sentence " 長年、互いに好意を抱いていたティファとクラウド。セフィロスとの最終決戦を目前にようやく、相手を求める気持ちを確かめ合えた。"

The line I have bolded is the 'Cloud and Tifa who have mutually held feelings of like/love for each other for many years", that sounds pretty mutual to me :lol: BUT I assume that is only in the case of the high affection scene? Low affection scene also exists and is described as 'apathetic and short', and neither is explicitly confirmed as canon, right? So yeah this whole argument seems a bit dumb, as they are relying on an optional scene which expresses romance between Cloud and Tifa if the player wishes there to be something between them+has made all the right decisions to get it. The word 'koui' alone does not prove anything :no:
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Jon Snow
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khaleesi ♥
Thanks for your input Hikari!

Yep, I've spoken to Japanese fans, as well. Koui isn't always mutual. My point is that TLS and other clotis have made it appear as if "koui" is only ever used for confirmed couples, however, they neglected to inform everyone that "koui" was also used for Brother -> Yuna, Quistis -> Squall, and Eiko -> Zidane. Which throws a wrench in their argument about this being only used for "mutual couples".

As for the "mutuality" of the quote, when Quixinos asked this question at allexperts, this is what the expert initially said:

Quote:
 
ANSWER: It reads (to me) just as it would in English, namely, that she didn't realize he had had feelings for her by the time she put the pieces together. In other words, that Cloud no longer felt that way, but had during that time period in the past. Otherwise, it would read, 好意を抱いているということに.


The expert explicitly says that IF the sentence were to read in a voice that shows the feelings are current, then it would be read as "好意を抱いていということに" instead of "好意を抱いていということに" .

"好意を抱いていということに" (this is how it would be phrased if it meant what clotis wanted it to)

"好意を抱いていということに" (<-- this is the actual version that the expert said meant Cloud no longer loves her).


The expert even went on to say that Cloud no longer felt that way for her. The word is mutual, but the thing is it's PAST tense. As in, it's in regards to Cloud's teenhood, not adulthood. So it makes sense that "koui" is mutual, because they did both used to like each other as children, but Cloud's moved on. Hence this quote:

『幼なじみってむずかしいよね。タイミンク、むずかしいのよ』
クラウドの宿命とティファの想いはいつだってすれ違う

Fan translation: 'Tifa: Sometimes being old friends is hard. I mean, timing is everything.';
Cloud’s fate and Tifa’s feelings are always passing by each other without meeting.


It's exactly as that expert said, by the time Tifa realizes Cloud liked her during their childhood, it was already too late and he moved on.

And to answer your question, this is about the lifestream scene, not the Highwind scene. Thinking of it in cloti logic, they're saying they found out about each other's secret love in the lifestream scene, which makes the supposed confession in the Highwind scene redundant. They claim Cloud and Tifa confessed love in the lifestream and then in the Highwind scene, it can't be both.






pandatumble
Oct 2 2016, 08:34 PM
Ohh this is actually really neat! I don't know how the Japanese language works but 好意 in Chinese does not explicitly mean mutual love. It merely means that a person holds feelings of affection for another person or they get a good vibe from the other person and see them as a potential love interest. In Chinese, affection worded this way is lower than outright saying "I like you". Makes me wonder how 好意 and 好きcompare in Japanese.
Thanks for your input! That's exactly what "koui" means from what my research has shown me. It CAN be either mutual or not, which is why it's used for Brother, Quistis, and Eiko, and even Rude and Jessie.
Edited by Jon Snow, Oct 3 2016, 12:28 AM.
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Kuraudo
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One thing that I've never been sure about is how/how well Quexinos knows Japanese. I don't know that person nor her credentials well.

Also, is there a relationship chart that uses that word to describe Tifa > Cloud?
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Jon Snow
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khaleesi ♥
Kuraudo
Oct 3 2016, 08:54 PM
One thing that I've never been sure about is how/how well Quexinos knows Japanese. I don't know that person nor her credentials well.

Also, is there a relationship chart that uses that word to describe Tifa > Cloud?
She doesn't know Japanese, but her friends Tres Dias and Ryushikaze claim to know. that's why she asked this expert for their opinion. It backfired, though, because the expert ended up agreeing with us that this entire quote was about Tifa realizing Cloud used to like her but he doesn't any more.

As for your question, it's either "koui" or "childhood friend". Cloud has never been described as her lover or anything on any of the charts.
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Jon Snow
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khaleesi ♥
*bump*
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Kuraudo
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Sooo.... this still stands, right? What is all this crap I'm hearing through the grapevine about this "koui" thing confirming Cloud > Tifa in anything other than a past crush? That has never been the case.
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Jon Snow
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khaleesi ♥
clotis think a quote that's saying cloud and tifa used to like each other (koui, a word used multiple times for non-mutual, temporary, and even PLATONIC relationships in FF series) means Cloud and Tifa "mutually have 'koui' for each other" in PRESENT time.

These are the quotes clotis use to claim Cloud and Tifa mutually have "favor" for each other in present tense:

1
 
Although Cloud has been holding favor( 好意)for Tifa since earlier, Tifa’s interest in him didn’t begin until the time of exchanging their promise.



2
 
Tifa didn’t realize he held favor( 好意)for her until he informed her in the Lifestream.


3
 
For many years, Cloud and Tifa have been holding favor(好意)for one another.



Quote 1 and 2 are both from the same paragraph so I'll explain them first:


Quote 1.

クラウドが前からティファに好意を抱いていたのに対し、 ティファのほうはクラウドに関心がなく、 約束を交わした時点から彼をしはじめる。


My breakdown explanation:


クラウドがからティファに好意抱いていたに対し
kuraudo・ga・maekara・tifa・ni・kōi・o・daiteita・no・nitaishi


Cloud・ga・previous/priorkara・Tifa・ni・favor・o・daiteita・no・towards; against; regarding; in contrast with



前 = previous; prior; former; some time ago; preceding

好意 = good will; favor; favour; courtesy

抱いていた = to harbour

に対し = towards; against; regarding; in contrast with

Based on the above information, this is how I translated (notice how I include a translation for に対し unlike other translations).

"In contrast to Cloud having had feelings for Tifa in the past, Tifa was not interested in Cloud, but begins to be after they make the promise."

OR

"In contrast to Cloud previously liking Tifa, Tifa didn't like Cloud until the promise.

OR

"Cloud had held feelings for Tifa in the past, in contrast Tifa was not interested in Cloud but begins to be after they make the promise. "

OR

"Cloud used to like Tifa, in contrast, Tifa was not interested in him until they made the promise."


OR

"In contrast to Cloud liking her in the past, Tifa wasn't interested in him until the promise."


Literally any of those translations are better a translated version. Any.

It literally says Cloud HAD HELD (daiteita) feelings (koui) for Tifa IN THE PAST (mae) in CONTRAST (nitaishi) to Tifa NOT liking him until the promise.

The entire premise of this sentence is showing the reader that Tifa did not like Cloud during the time that he used to like her.

I don't understand how an entire group of people who claim to be exPerT TraNslaToRs failed to see this glaring fallacy in their logic. Or maybe they knew and they lied, I don't know.

I mean, an expert a cloti contacted even told them this very same fcking fact about daiteita:

Quote:
 
It reads (to me) just as it would in English, namely, that she didn't realize he had had feelings for her by the time she put the pieces together. In other words, that Cloud no longer felt that way, but had during that time period in the past. Otherwise, it would read, 好意を抱いていということに.

Typically, Japanese sentence tense can be understood by the final verb of the sentence, the occasional noun clause adding the crucial details. As above, this would be the equivalent to making the following distinction:

1. "Tifa did not realize that Cloud had feelings for her until he told her [as much] while [they were] in the Lifestream."
"...好意を抱いていということに、"

2. "Tifa did not realize that Cloud had once had feelings for her until he mentioned it while [they were] in the Lifestream."
"...好意を抱いていということに、"

The distinction, if it exists, must be made in the noun clause, and would be, respectively:

1. "...好意を抱いていということに、"

VS.

2. "...好意を抱いていということに、



This expert says that IF the clause were to read in a past progressive tense, then it SHOULD be like this: "...好意を抱いていということに、".

So the difference between this clause being past progressive tense or past-tense comes down to whether る - "ru" is used or if た - "ta" is used.

The expert explained that IF る - "ru" had been used in the clause then it would be translated as "Tifa did not realize that Cloud had feelings for her"

However, the expert said that since た - "ta" is used then it is NOT past progressive tense.

even Japanese dictionaries say that "ru" is what would make it past progressive:

Posted Image

This same rule applies to quote #2 and that same Japanese expert translated that quote as:

Quote:
 
Tifa did not realize that Cloud had once had feelings for her until he mentioned it while [they were] in the Lifestream.


So quote 1 & 2 are totally annihilated.

As for quote 3:


長年、互いに好意を抱いていたティファとクラウド。

it not only uses "daiteita" (automatically past tense) but the official French translation also backs up that it's past tense:

Quote:
 
(Tifa's page) Dans la nature, face à un Cloud n'arrivant pas à trouver ses mots, la nuit précidant le combat final. Pendant des années, Tifa et Cloud ont secrètement eu des sentiments run pour l'autre. Avant la dernière batailla faco à Sephiroth, ils arrivent enfin à se les avoue.

In the wild: Facing a Cloud unable to find his words, the night before the final battle. For years, Tifa and Cloud *had* feelings for each other. Before the final battle with Sephiroth, they finally come to confess/admit/acknowledge them.


What the French is actually saying is "used to have", as in past tense. The reason we know this is because the sentence "Tifa et Cloud ont secretement eu" is in the "passé composé" (a past conjugation) tense, meaning it describes something that happened in the past and isn't ongoing anymore.

An example of this is the Case of Lifestream quote: "Cloud avait été son amant" which is translated as "Cloud had been her friend and lover" (because Aerith died and they can no longer be "together", hence the "had been"). Are Cloud and Aerith still lovers? Emotionally, of course... but physically? No of course not.

So the phrasing of "Tifa et Cloud ont secrètement eu des sentiments run pour l'autre" means their feelings were a COMPLETED action in the past, meaning they don't have those feelings now.


The French backs up that it's past tense.

End of story.






Edited by Jon Snow, Feb 5 2018, 05:26 PM.
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colbie
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That must of taken so long to translate ! Awesome work ! I'm going through the Lifestream article right now and it's so long, it must of taken hours of work.

Jon Snow
 
I don't understand how an entire group of people who claim to be exPerT TraNslaToRs failed to see this glaring fallacy in their logic. Or maybe they knew and they lied, I don't know.


Unfortunately people are going to listen to them more because Lifestream at first glance seems like a neutral FFVII fandom website and forum. Most people are going to see what they say and take it in, because the website looks so neutral. They are not going to know that it's basically a Cloti Forum. And yeah, I'm betting that they lied - knowing all this.


So dumb question ? It doesn't really matter if the C/T Highwind Event is High or Low because Cloud's feelings towards Tifa are always in the past ?


Quote:
 
After all they’ve been through together, Cloud and Tifa have a meaningful night in which they discover … they’re friends. And this realization leads them to live together.


.... There's nothing wrong with living with friends or living with a childhood friend or best friend or a friend that has a crush on you or just any sort of friend....



Edited by colbie, Feb 5 2018, 04:42 AM.
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linaerith
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In our Promised Land...
Don't really have anything to add, would just like to thank Stray for her continuous flawless work. As Colbie said, it must have been a lot of work. I wish I could help with these translations. But I digress, thank you so much, you're such a clerith workaholic ♥

A lot of these would have been avoided if Square had released all of this in multi-languages, including English, upon release. I hope they don't make this mistake with the remake.
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