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| Europe's Cartoons Vs Muslim's Cartoons; Norway apologizes for their free speech | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 3 2006, 06:58 AM (1,553 Views) | |
| DanHouck | Feb 6 2006, 08:32 PM Post #61 |
Land of Enchantment NM
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A bunch don't get incited by a few if they don't agree. Look what happens when Muslims exercise democracy--they vote for terrorists (Egypt & Palestine) and avowed advocates of the religious state (Shia in Iraq). That Islam is highly intolerant of other beliefs and basic freedom for women is obvious from the reports coming out of that region. Try reading Al Jazeera a few days, its a real eye opener. We need to disengage from these primitive people. It is insane to think we can do anything other than inflame them further by trying to be an occupying force in one country surrounded by terrorist loving and sponsoring countries who are helping the "insurgents" kill us in any way possible. They're showing some of these Arab cartoons on Hannity & Colmes right now. Take a look. Also, this is quite interesting. Appears the prohibition against showing images of Muhammed is quite selective: http://info2us.dk/muhammed/ |
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| cmoehle | Feb 6 2006, 08:47 PM Post #62 |
Chris - San Antonio TX
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What's a bunch here, couple 100? Even a couple 1000? Heard a reporter on the scene describe the Lebonese crowd as mainly people who came to protest peacefully, and who were, but for a few at the front causing the violence. Should the Muslim mainstream stand up and stop the few. Sure. So should Christians stand up to hateful Christians. And what have they to vote for otherwise? Monarchies and theocracies? Islam is intolerant? Look at Christianity. By your reasoning we should should all religious people out. BTW, Al Jezeera is not Islam. Do you buy our liberal, anti-Muslim press? So what do you propose, cut'n'run? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Banandangees | Feb 6 2006, 08:56 PM Post #63 |
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"Should the Muslim mainstream stand up and stop the few. Sure. So should Christians stand up to hateful Christians." Stand up to hateful anyone. Even the hateful secularists, Stalin being one example. |
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| cmoehle | Feb 6 2006, 09:10 PM Post #64 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Stalin went to seminary--remember? In fact, iirc, it was, where else, at seminary school he found Marxism. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Stoney | Feb 6 2006, 11:42 PM Post #65 |
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Huntsville, AL
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Stalin went to a seminary where I've read he was molested as a child; also by his father apparently. Later in life he did about as much as he could to destroy every church in Russia along with the priests, nuns and monks who inhabited them. I agree with the problems that religion presents, but I would disagree that all problems are the fault of religion. I know that was not said. But to infer or say that what Hitler and Stalin did was strictly motivated by religion ignores what we will never know. I can't tell you what motivates my wife to do some of the things she does. It's just not that simple. |
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The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. Henry David Thoreau | |
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| TexasShadow | Feb 6 2006, 11:57 PM Post #66 |
Jane
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I would say that Stalin and Hitler were both equally anti-religion. While Stalin chose to try to destroy it completely, Hitler chose to use it to his advantage. |
 "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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| Stoney | Feb 7 2006, 12:09 AM Post #67 |
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Huntsville, AL
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I think that is clearer with Stalin. It's hard to say, and we will never be able to but speculate about Hitler. Both may have called themselves Christians. Neither was in any sense of that meaning. |
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The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. Henry David Thoreau | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 7 2006, 05:55 AM Post #68 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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But during the war with Germany, iirc, religion was allowed a revival to rally the populace. I believe if you look into Stalin you will see he, while not overtly religious, and in different ways, used religion as much as Hitler. But the notion that any of that defines secularism is absurd. What ultimately Hitler and Stalin sought was empowering collectivism and eliminating free thought individualism. That same struggle exists today in Christianity, Islam and Judaism as a clash between religious conservatism and liberalism, one difficult to see because of the religious conservatism is politically liberal (authoritarian) and the religious liberalism politically conservative. Look at Palestine, Iran and other places, what do you see but hard-line conservatives fighting to take or keep control. Here you see it in Christian Identity, KKK and Dominionist movements. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Banandangees | Feb 7 2006, 07:33 AM Post #69 |
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What is secularism? Chris, you wrote:
You have used Wikipedia as a link for support. This from Wikipedia: "Stalin's involvement with the socialist movement (or, to be more exact, the branch of it that later became the communist movement) began at the seminary. During these school years, Stalin joined a Georgian Social-Democratic organization, and began propagating Marxism. Stalin was expelled from the seminary in 1899 for these actions." you wrote:
This from Wikipedia: "Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were killed. During World War II, however, the Church was allowed a partial revival, as a patriotic organization: thousands of parishes were reactivated, until a further round of suppression in Khrushchev's time. The Church Synod's recognition of the Soviet government and of Stalin personally led to a schism with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia that remains not fully healed to the present day. Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted." Was Stalin's action more religious or more secular? Sure, he had an agenda (they all do) and he used this secular approach to more readily attain that objective. Call his leadership Chrisitan or religious over secular if you want, because he attended a "seminary," but facts suggest otherwise. |
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| Justine | Feb 7 2006, 10:02 AM Post #70 |
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A couple of hundred, or thousand,? Looks like more then a couple hundred, and the scenes I have seen on tv of school yards filled with sweet childrens faces, yelling hatred, Muslim children, being taught hatred, I don't think it is a good idea to assume it is only a " few" who are advocating violence, seems like the Muslim population is being turned against all Westerners now, and for less and less reason. Hey I am sorry, but a cartoon just isn't worth killing over, at least not to many other people in the world. Intially it seemed to be just the "middle eastern" Muslims that were violent, ie Iraq, Afgansistan etc. But, now we see images on t.v. of Muslims from all over Europe now, united in thier hatred of anyone not Muslim. They say it is a " respect" issue, well, I am sorry, I don't buy that, they will now look for any reason to hate. If I sound a little biased and pissed , you are right, I am. I wish they would all just put their guns and bombs away and shut the hell up. I have yet to threaten death to anyone who " disrepects" my religion. Gosh, if I did, I'd been a ranting all day long. |
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| cmoehle | Feb 7 2006, 11:45 AM Post #71 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Banan "Was Stalin's action more religious or more secular?" The first thing you need to establish, Banan, is your base premise that religion and secularism are opposites. About the only way you can establish that is by accepting that religion is authoritarian, the more conservative the more so, and that that is opposed by individualistic secular free thought. But this leads in the extreme to a positive association between totalitarian states, both Fascist and Communist, and religious theocratic states, and a negative association with secularism, better associated with democracies and republics, you know, as in the secular government we enjoy. In short, banan, your premise is not grounded in reality. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 7 2006, 11:52 AM Post #72 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Justine, in the TV scenes you saw how many had these guns you want put down? Any of the children? The mothers? I remember right after 9/11 a TV scene depicting a huge group of Muslim women and children dancing in the street. My God! How dare they. --But the follow up on that was it was a dozen people asked to dance for candy bars or some such shot close up by cameras so an anti-Muslim press could shove it in your face. Don't get me wrong, the threat is very real. And if we're going to war against Islam we had better work up a good bit of irrational hate, enough to sustain us for the long haul, it'll be a long, long war. Thought I heard this morning about Lebonese citizens out on the streets protesting the violence. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Banandangees | Feb 7 2006, 01:10 PM Post #73 |
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| Cornelius | Feb 7 2006, 01:56 PM Post #74 |
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Maybe on that occasion but even here in the Netherlands, a group of Muslims were out in the street dancing and not for candy bars, just out of sheer joy about what happened at 9/11. I’m also having a belly full about it’s only a few”. These few don’t stand a chance without the support of the rest. And Justine is right; hatred seems to be part of the curriculum in the Muslim world. Dan is right to; we should just get out of their faces and leave them to it. Shut down all embassies’s there and close down theirs. Last week I was pleased that my government was sending an additional 1400 troops to help the Afghan people. After the events of the last few days I’m not so sure. |
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| justme | Feb 7 2006, 02:23 PM Post #75 |
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It looks like freedom is not a Muslim thing. |
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