Europe's Cartoons Vs Muslim's Cartoons

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Europe's Cartoons Vs Muslim's Cartoons; Norway apologizes for their free speech
Tweet Topic Started: Feb 3 2006, 06:58 AM (1,547 Views)
Banandangees	Feb 3 2006, 06:58 AM Post #1
Member Posts: 1,938 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: July 26, 2004	Which is more sacred in a "free country:" Blasphemy or Freedom of speech Or does it matter? Norway apologiizes for their participation. Does that mean that Norway's news media cartoons will never depict the "prophet" or any other religious figure in the future? Van Gough learned his lesson. Jihad Against Danish Newspaper (from the article:) "According to the Islam it is blasphemous to make images of the prophet. Muslim fundamentalists have threatened to bomb the paper's offices and kill the cartoonists." "Meanwhile in Brussels a young Muslim immigrant published a poster depicting the Virgin Mary with naked breasts. Though the picture has drawn some protest from Catholics (though not from Western embassies, nor from the bishops), this artist need not fear being murdered in the street. On the contrary, he is being subsidised by the Ministry for Culture." Would this be a double standard and accepted to promote peace? No doubt, these cartoons are done in very poor taste and no doubt brings on protests. But, protests to what point? Should punishment for "blasphemy" be handled by men or God?
	Banan


cmoehle	Feb 3 2006, 12:41 PM Post #2
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	Check off free speech for me. Censoring blasphemy is a good example of religious correctness. The double standard I see is this. We tend to see this as a free speech issue when it's them as opposed to an attack on Christianity when it's us.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


Colo_Crawdad	Feb 3 2006, 01:30 PM Post #3
Lowell Posts: 1,808 Group: Members Member #15 Joined: June 21, 2004	Much of the news coming out of the Middle east makes me also appreciate the Constitutional separation of Church and State. Sure, I know there is argument about whether or not the Courts are correct in interpreting our Constitution as providing that separation. I do believe that the current goings on in the Middle East demonstrate empirically that such separation is absolutely necessary to a free society.
	"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo


Colo_Crawdad	Feb 3 2006, 01:36 PM Post #4
Lowell Posts: 1,808 Group: Members Member #15 Joined: June 21, 2004	I posted this yesterday on another forum. I think that it is appropriate here on this thread. I wonder if many of us understand the theology of monotheism as Islamic belief? I think I can grasp just a little of it, but the concept is certainly foreign to one who grew up surrounded by pictures of God and Jesus, as did I. As I understand it, Islamic monotheistic theology teaches that God cannot be defined nor pictured and that pictures of Mohammad become blasphemous if one begins to worship him as God. It seems to me that may explain why the picture found at the beginning of this thread may be much more offensive to a muslim than even a similar caricature of Jesus would be to a Christian. I'm not sure that I am making myself clear. In fact, I'm not sure that I'm totally clear myself. Perhaps this small quotation from the Qur'an may be helpful. Quote: Qur�an is in Surah Ikhlaas, Chapter 112 verse 1-4 �Say he is Allah, the one and only. the eternal, the absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten And there is none like Him�. (112:1-4) I was just attempting to explain this concept to my wife and she probably said the most insightful thing, that we in the West do not really have to understand Islam to understand that publishing caricatures of another's religion in an attempt to belittle them is simply Wrong. (The capital W is intentional.)
	"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo


abradf2519	Feb 3 2006, 03:48 PM Post #5
Member Posts: 1,317 Group: Members Member #122 Joined: November 19, 2004	Colo_Crawdad Feb 3 2006, 01:30 PM Much of the news coming out of the Middle east makes me also appreciate the Constitutional separation of Church and State. Sure, I know there is argument about whether or not the Courts are correct in interpreting our Constitution as providing that separation. I do believe that the current goings on in the Middle East demonstrate empirically that such separation is absolutely necessary to a free society. Amen!
	Alan Milan, New York, USA


cmoehle	Feb 3 2006, 05:48 PM Post #6
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	For the good of all. Amen!
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


Banandangees	Feb 3 2006, 07:26 PM Post #7
Member Posts: 1,938 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: July 26, 2004	Quote: The double standard I see is this. We tend to see this as a free speech issue when it's them as opposed to an attack on Christianity when it's us. That's how you see that "we" see it. How do you see that "they" see it. How do you see that the "world" should see (judge) it? Thinking of the two quotes of the article in the original post (realizing how ugly both are to any reasonable person) I wondered if "anyone" might consider it a double standard if one quote was acceptable under secular derived "free speech" and the other quote not acceptable; or one quote to be tolerable by a (any) religious group and the other quote not tolerable?
	Banan


cmoehle	Feb 3 2006, 09:27 PM Post #8
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	Banan, you make my head spin. :spin: Say what you mean, and mean what you say. `Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. `You might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!' --Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, Chapter VII A Mad Tea Party
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


cmoehle	Feb 4 2006, 07:51 AM Post #9
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	US sides with Muslims in cartoon dispute Quote: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Washington on Friday condemned caricatures in European newspapers of the Prophet Mohammad, siding with Muslims who are outraged that the publications put press freedom over respect for religion. By inserting itself into a dispute that has become a lightning rod for anti-European sentiment across the Muslim world, the United States could help its own battered image among Muslims. "These cartoons are indeed offensive to the belief of Muslims," State Department spokesman Kurtis Cooper said in answer to a question. "We all fully recognize and respect freedom of the press and expression but it must be coupled with press responsibility. Inciting religious or ethnic hatreds in this manner is not acceptable." *"We call for tolerance and respect for all communities for their religious beliefs and practices," he added.* (emphasis added) Which America is he talking about? White Anti-Gay Group to Protest King Funeral Quote: Adding insult to injury, Westboro Baptist Church, led by anti-gay extremist Fred Phelps, is planning a protest at Coretta Scott King's funeral at New Birth Missionary Baptist Church on Tuesday, February 7 at 12 noon. WBC said �for more than 10 years that by endorsing the homosexual agenda she was brining down the wrath of God upon herself, her family and the black civil rights movement. She is an ingrate-unthankful and unholy.� ....Ironically King�s funeral will take place at mega church pastor Bishop Eddie Long�s New Birth Baptist Missionary Church. Long is an outspoken critic of gays and led a march to Dr. King�s grave denouncing gay rights in 2004 with King�s youngest daughter Bernice.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


Banandangees	Feb 4 2006, 09:14 AM Post #10
Member Posts: 1,938 Group: Members Member #76 Joined: July 26, 2004	NO DOUBT both incidents in your link and both in my link are ugly and in poor taste. Outrage is expected for both and from both sides, even "Washington on Friday condemned caricatures in European newspapers" (if it means it). Chris, I thought my questions in my initial post were clear. To what extent should the level of protest be expected/tolerated in all these incidents? Should Europe "regulate" freedom of the press (speech) to a tolerable level (who's level)? Should the UN (the world) "regulate" civil/governmental reaction to these attacks on cultures to a tolerable level (who's level)? Is "Washington's condemnation" honest, smoke, hypocracy or just diplomatic rhetoric? Because if they mean it, what happens when the Islamic world carries out it's threat and bombs the European embassies, kills the authors (as with Van Gough). Do we demand retribution for the author of the "bare breasted Mary" or the "cartoon" of Christ with an condomed erection? Who sets the standards? Or do, in this case, do the Eruopeans "submit?"
	Banan


Stoney	Feb 4 2006, 09:41 AM Post #11
Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,771 Group: Members Member #216 Joined: October 22, 2005	I think I agree with Banan. The principle is more important than the possible consequences.
	The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. Henry David Thoreau


cmoehle	Feb 4 2006, 09:58 AM Post #12
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	I guess I draw the line at hate. Tolerate the rest as free speech. Cartoons are free speech, social commentary, the anti-gay group hateful.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


Stoney	Feb 4 2006, 10:11 AM Post #13
Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,771 Group: Members Member #216 Joined: October 22, 2005	I don't say it is right. Lines are too hard to define. Would you say that I could not say I hate murderers? Then would we need to address indirect wording that infers that hate? Not allowing someone to express their hate would not change that hate. It might make it more dangerous.
	The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. Henry David Thoreau


Cornelius	Feb 4 2006, 11:03 AM Post #14
Member Posts: 1,689 Group: Members Member #22 Joined: June 29, 2004	Geez, talk about organised indignation. These cartoons have been circulating since September. Must be a slow week in Islamic media. Now lets see, who would benefit most from steering hatred towards the West.



cmoehle	Feb 4 2006, 11:24 AM Post #15
Chris - San Antonio TX Posts: 36,959 Group: Members Member #1 Joined: June 6, 2004	Kees, I think the uproar is other newspapers in other countries have printed them. I think it's to make a statement, a social statement, criticism that Muslims think they deserve some special treatment. That's my impression. Stoney, we've discussed this here a number of times re the KKK. I then held forth that free speech is free speech to the point of inciting violence. But others here convinced me the line was hatred. Of course it's a fuzzy line, don't think life offers any clean lines. But to me these cartoons are not hateful, and not intended to incite violence, whereas the WBC is hateful. I'm not now sure I would advocate stopping someone from expressing hate, but I would advocate confronting it, standing up to it.
	Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater


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