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For Christians; Religious
Topic Started: Oct 12 2005, 10:16 PM (303 Views)
MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida

Odd, I never felt that Clinton was hated at all. He is just too good at what he does. ( ie being a politician) to dislike. After all, he never did much without a consensus from opinion polls. I don't say that in a disagreeable way, I always liked the man. I didn't approve of his conduct, and I thought that he was a liar, but a genuinely affable and likeable guy whose company I would enjoy.

As far as Ken's
Quote:
 
sent us off to a war we didn't need to fight (I don't give a hoot if Clinton etc thought Saddam had WMD'd Bush pulled the trigger and they weren't there.)

Are you saying that when you were working and your partner advised you of a credible threat you wouldn't act to protect yourself and/or your partner? I find that hard to believe. I think you would have acted just as President Bush did and act to protect you and yours first.
As far as atheism is concerned I certainly believe it is your (and everyone's) right to
believe as they see fit, however it seems to me that when President Bush expresses his beliefs he is condemned by secularist. The Constitution prohibits "religious
tests “and one’s right to express his religious beliefs. One can justifiably attack his politics and actions, but when people attack his personal religious beliefs
they in effect are saying "you have no right to publicly express your beliefs" which is
wrong.

Lastly, (and I mean lastly) I have to say that you are right to call attention to the terrible deeds of men done in God's name. But I implore you to remember they are the deeds of MEN.


" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Frank, Clinton was one of the most hated I've experienced, largely by so-called cons, just the same as some so-called libs hate Bush. There are those who do not distinguish person from policy, and those who do--it crosses principles and parties.

As for secularists, what are we talking, 2, maybe 3, stretch it to 5% of the population?


"But I implore you to remember they are the deeds of MEN."

Nothing more, nothing more.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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campingken
Member
Frank,

If I was driving down the road and my partner pointed out a pedistrian and said "he has a gun shoot him" that would NOT be enough of a reason for me to kill the guy. The key is CREDIBLE and the threat from Iraq was not enough to justify war. I remember Rummy saying " we know where the WMD's are." If WMD's were the reason for war why haven't we invaded North Korea and a host of other countries?

As time passes it appears that Bush and his team "cooked the Iraqi books" to justify their war. You know what happens to the cop who puts false and/or non credible information in a search or arrest warrant...

Bush has more than earned his current poll ratings......

Ken
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ozarkpreacher
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cmoehle
Oct 14 2005, 12:17 PM

"But I implore you to remember they are the deeds of MEN."

Nothing more, nothing more.

The deeds of men.

Ezekiel 13:1-6
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.



Matthew Henry had this to say.

The false prophets, who are here prophesied against, were some of them at Jerusalem (Jer. 23:14): I have seen in the prophets at Jerusalem a horrible thing; some of them among the captives in Babylon, for to them Jeremiah writes (Jer. 29:8), Let not your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you. And as God's prophets, though at a distance from each other in place or time, yet preached the same truths, which was an evidence that they were guided by one and the same good Spirit, so the false prophets prophesied the same lies, being actuated by one and the same spirit of error. There were little hopes of bringing them to repentance, they were so hardened in their sin; yet Ezekiel must prophesy against them, in hopes that the people might be cautioned not to hearken to them; and thus a testimony will be left upon record against them, and they will thereby be left inexcusable.

Ezekiel had express orders to prophesy against the prophets of Israel; so they called themselves, as if none but they had been worthy of the name of Israel's prophets, who were indeed Israel's deceivers. But it is observable that Israel was never imposed upon by pretenders to prophecy till after they had rejected and abused the true prophets; as, afterwards, they were never deluded by counterfeit messiahs till after they had refused the true Messiah and rejected him. These false prophets must be required to hear the word of the Lord. They took upon them to speak what concerned others as from God; let them now hear what concerned themselves as from him. And two things the prophet is directed to do:—

I. To discover their sin to them, and to convince them of that if possible, or thereby to prevent their proceeding any further, by making manifest their folly unto all men, 2 Tim. 3:9. They are here called foolish prophets (v. 3), men that did not at all understand the business they pretended to; to make fools of the people they made fools of themselves, and put the greatest cheat upon their own souls. Let us see what is here laid to their charge. 1. They pretend to have a commission from God, whereas he never sent them. They thrust themselves into the prophetic office, without warrant from him who is the Lord God of the holy prophets, which was a foolish thing; for how could they expect that God should own them in a work to which he never called them? They are prophets out of their own hearts (so the margin reads it, v. 2), prophets of their own making, v. 6. They say, The Lord saith; they pretend to be his messengers, but the Lord has not sent them, has not given them any orders. They counterfeit the broad seal of heaven, than which they cannot do a greater indignity to mankind, for hereby they put a reproach upon divine revelation, lessen its credit, and weaken its credibility. When these pretenders are found to be deceivers atheists and infidels will thence infer, They are all so. The Lord has not sent them; for though crafty enough in other things like the foxes, and very wise for the world, yet they are foolish prophets and have no experimental acquaintance with the things of God. Note, Foolish prophets are not of God's sending, for whom he sends he either finds fit or makes fit. Where he gives warrant he gives wisdom. 2. They pretend to have instructions from God, whereas he never made himself and his mind known to them: They followed their own spirit (v. 3); they delivered that as a message from God which was the product either of their subtle invention, to serve a turn for themselves, or of their own crazed and heated imagination, to give vent to a fancy. For they have seen nothing, they have not really had any heavenly vision; they pretend that what they say the Lord saith it, but God disowns it: "I have not spoken it, I never said it, never meant any such thing.'' What they delivered was not what they had seen or heard, as that is which the ministers of Christ deliver (1 Jn. 1:1), but either what they had dreamed or what they thought would please those they coveted to make an interest in; this is called their seeing vanity and lying divination (v. 6); they pretended to have seen that which they did not see, and produced that as a divine truth which they knew to be false. To the same purport (v. 7): You have see a vain vision and spoken a lying divination, which had no divine original and would have no effect, but would certainly be disproved by the event; the words are changed (v. 8): You have spoken vanity and seen lies; what they saw and what they said was all alike, a mere sham; they saw nothing, they said nothing, to the purpose, nothing that could be relied on or that deserved regard. Again (v. 9), They see vanity and divine lies; they pretended to have had visions, as the true prophets had, whereas really they had none, but either it was the creature of their own fancy (they thought they had a vision, as men in a delirium do, that was seeing vanity) or it was a fiction of their own politics, and they knew they had none, and then they saw lies, and divined lies. See Jer. 23:16, etc. Note, Since the devil is universally know to be the father of lies, those put the highest affront imaginable upon God who tell lies, and then father them upon him. But those that had put God's character upon Satan, in worshipping devils, arrived at length at such a pitch of impiety as to put Satan's character upon God. 3. They took no care to prevent the judgments of God that were breaking in upon the kingdom. They are like the foxes in the deserts, running to and fro, and seeming to be in a great hurry, but it was to get away and shift for their own safety, not to do any good: The hireling flees, and leaves the sheep. They are like foxes that are greedy of prey for themselves, crafty and cruel to feed themselves. But (v. 5), "You have not gone up into the gaps, nor made up the hedge of the house of Israel. A breach is made in their fences, at which judgments are ready to pour in upon them, and then, if ever, is the time to do them service; but you have done nothing to help them.'' They should have made intercession for them, to turn away the wrath of God; but they were not praying prophets, had no interest in heaven nor intercourse with heaven (as prophets used to have, Gen. 20:7) and so could do them no service that way. They should have made it their business by preaching and advice to bring people to repentance and reformation, and so have made up the hedge, and put a stop to the judgments of God; but this was none of their care: they contrived how to pleased people, not how to profit them. They saw a deluge of profaneness and impiety breaking in upon the land, waging war with virtue and holiness, and threatening to crush them and bear them down, and then they should have come in to the help of the Lord, to the help of the Lord against the mighty, by witnessing against the wickedness of the time and place they lived in; but they thought that would be as dangerous a piece of service as standing in a breach to make it good against the besiegers, and therefore they declined it, did nothing to stem the tide, stood not in the battle against vice and immorality, but basely deserted the cause of religion and reformation, in the day of the Lord, when it was proclaimed, Who is on the Lord's side? Who will rise up for me against the evil-doers? Ps. 94:16. Those were unworthy the name of prophets that could think so favourably of sin, and had so little zeal for God and the public welfare. 4. They flattered people into a vain hope that the judgments God had threatened would never come, whereby they hardened those in sin whom they should have endeavoured to turn from sin (v. 6): They have made others to hope that all should be well, and they should have peace, though they went on still in their trespasses, and that the event would confirm the word. They were still ready to say, "We will warrant you that these troubles will be at an end quickly, and we shall be in prosperity again.'' as if their warrants would confirm false prophecies, in defiance of God himself.



I reference this not necessarily because I agree or disagree with the one's being spoken about in this topic nor because I agree or disagree with the opinions stated. Only to remind us that men are men and not everything that man says he heard from God is so regardless of who he might be either in the secular world or the religious. I hesitate to say Christian because I don't believe any true Christian will say "God said..." with knowledge that He did not.

God does not confirm that which He did not say regardless of the title a man may have adorning himself.

In His grip, OP
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patticake
Patticake
Lets all settle down and not dislike anyone..We are not to judge
people, that is Gods, work..He made everyone of us, and everyone
of us has a purpose in this life..even the ones we dislike..just remember
God didnt make any junk, we are all created in his image, we just dont
act like him sometimes....patti
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cruiser
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Member
Patticake, per your QUOTE "just remember
God didnt make any junk", we are all created in his image, we just dont
act like him sometimes....patti

I do not know where to start about god made no JUNK, so let us just begin with Adolph Hitler!
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.

Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida

Ken I disagree. There, IMO, evidence credible enough to warrant the action taken.
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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campingken
Member
Frank,

Based on the declining enlistments you are in the minority. Heaven only knows how Iraq will end but I don't think the results will be good for our country.

Ken
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
patti "God didnt make any junk"

The who made it? :)



Frank "evidence credible enough to warrant the action taken"

Such as? We know there were no active WMD programs and no operative terrorist ties. Saddam's noncompliance was not a threat.

Just curious what you mean specifically.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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passinthru
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John - Gainesville, FL
Quote:
 
evidence credible enough to warrant the action taken

I think the administration wanted to present evidence credible enough to warrant the action they wanted to take. I think the leaders of other countries didn't see the evidence as credible, and our president decided to go it alone (okay, there is this coalition of a few thousand troops) when the rest of the world didn't bite.
Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money...
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Congress sure bit on it when they abandoned their responsibilities.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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