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| Gay Priest Speaks Out; an interview | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 11 2005, 04:51 PM (1,272 Views) | |
| cmoehle | Oct 17 2005, 11:05 AM Post #91 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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You're right, always a lot more to say and learn. Another day, then. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| TexasShadow | Oct 17 2005, 12:47 PM Post #92 |
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Jane
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Chris I said I'd get back to you re what the jews think re Lev 18 and 20, and what they did about it when they had a theocracy (and what they will do about it if they ever have a theocracy again) First, "an eye for an eye" was never taken literally; it means monetary compensation. Only "life for life" is literal and even there, there were cities of refuge if the death was accidental. Second, for someone to be subjected to the death penalty he had to have been warned against the offence in advance, and the offence must have been witnessed by two credible witnesses (lots of exceptions). Circumstantial evidence was not accepted. OJ would have walked without a trial. If two men saw someone chasing another with a knife, and they ran into a building, and the witnesses follow them, and see a dead man with the pursuer standing over him with a bloody knife, --- that is insufficient evidence for conviction. If a sanhedrin vote is unanimous for conviction (no jury system), the convicted person goes free because he obviously did not get proper representation. The charge of homosexual ACTS (it is the act that counts, not the tendency) is tough to convict on because it is done in private, without witnesses. A male, walking hand in hand with another, even kissing him on the lips in public, is not punishible. The Torah is very specific. They have to sleep together and perform acts as for a man with a woman. The Torah warning is to let people know the serioousness but punishment is almost always left to God. Note the paragraph about the sanhedrin...and know that a sanhedrin is composed of 70 of the most righteous(honest, sincere) men in jewry......... don't you just have to admire their thinking? Now, christianity doesn't really need to consider jewish thought on this because J made it pretty clear that we are in the forgiving business, forgiving as we hope to be forgiven ourselves. So christian hostility to homosexuality is not going to lead to killing them (as you suggested with your question) But hostility to the demand that christianity just shut up and go away and pretend that homosexual acts are normal and okay and no big deal... is not going to go away for a long time, hopefully never. |
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| cmoehle | Oct 17 2005, 04:37 PM Post #93 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Interesting background on what the Jews meant by what they said. I'd be interested--as if I didn't know--how much Leviticus had to do with not normal everyday life at all but as it says religious ritual. It all undermines your position. I don't think Jesus put you in the forgiving business, something for kings and kings and their vassals and slaves, I think he put you in the love thy neighbor business, "all men are created equal". Your words are not very forgiving. Why not leave the forgiving and condemning and judging to God. I think that the problem here is one of frustration that it is going away right now as we speak: The End of Gay Culture. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Jelly Bean | Oct 17 2005, 06:07 PM Post #94 |
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Actually I was just defending Cal's post to you about the source, which in turn now has me ending up having to defend myself because I said you did the same thing...and you think you are having to defend yourself now? All I said was you did to me, what you say Cal did to you in regards to commenting on other people's sources. It's pretty simple really. You want to call myself or Cal on being personal, but you can't see you doing that to him? And I would agree..this gets VERY BORING! |
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| Jelly Bean | Oct 17 2005, 06:17 PM Post #95 |
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Amen...again, you say it simply, and way better then I ever could... not sure why I keep trying...lol! |
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| cmoehle | Oct 17 2005, 06:17 PM Post #96 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Then why continue it? "I... you... me... myself... I... you... you... you... yourself... I... you... me... you... you... You... myself... you ... you... I... gets VERY BORING!? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| cmoehle | Oct 17 2005, 06:18 PM Post #97 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Another step away... |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Jelly Bean | Oct 17 2005, 06:20 PM Post #98 |
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Actually, christians are in the forgiving business, just as much as in the loving business. Forgive one another, forgive others...it's all there in the Bible chris. |
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| Jelly Bean | Oct 17 2005, 06:21 PM Post #99 |
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I have no idea what "another step away" means chris. Can you please be more clear on what you are trying to say to me? |
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| Jelly Bean | Oct 17 2005, 06:22 PM Post #100 |
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I didn't realize that is was "I" who was continuing it, I was just answering "YOU". |
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| cmoehle | Oct 17 2005, 06:23 PM Post #101 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Have Christians forgiven slaves yet? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Jelly Bean | Oct 17 2005, 06:30 PM Post #102 |
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Lost me again I have NO IDEA what you are referring to, be more specific please. |
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| cmoehle | Oct 17 2005, 06:40 PM Post #103 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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History. Just more history. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Jelly Bean | Oct 17 2005, 06:48 PM Post #104 |
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well, so much for specifics..lol
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| cmoehle | Oct 17 2005, 07:31 PM Post #105 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Saint Augustine: “The primary cause of slavery, then, is sin . . . and this can only be by a judgment of God, in whom there is no unrighteousness, and who knows how to assign divers punishments according to the deserts of the sinners.” Apologists popularly quoted Exodus 20:17 and Ephesians 6:5-7. Peter Cartwright (1785-1872), an abolitionist speaking of Christian aslavery apologists: "They began to apologize for the evil; then to justify it on legal principles; then on Bible principles—till lo and behold! It is not an evil but a good! it is not a curse but a blessing!” Samuel B. How (1790-1886), Dutch Reformed apologist, justified it so: “there are rights of property; that there are masters and that there are slaves, and [the Bible] bids us to respect the right of the master, and not to covet his man-servant or his maid-servant.” John England (1786-1842), Roman Catholic bishop, defended as natural law not prohibiting "a state in which one man has dominion over the labour of another and the ingenuity of another to the end of his life." Richard Furman (1755-1825), Baptist apologist, "These sentiments, the Convention, on whose behalf I address your Excellency, cannot think just, or well-founded: for the right of holding slaves is clearly established by the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example. In the Old Testament, the Isrealites were directed to purchase their bond-men and bond-maids of the Heathen nations; except they were of the Canaanites, for these were to be destroyed. And it is declared, that the persons purchased were to be their "bond-men forever;" and an "inheritance for them and their children." They were not to go out free in the year of jubilee, as the Hebrews, who had been purchased, were: the line being clearly drawn between them. In example, they are presented to our view as existing in the families of the Hebrews as servants, or slaves, born in the house, or bought with money: so that the children born of slaves are here considered slaves as well as their parents. And to this well known state of things, as to its reason and order, as well as to special privileges, St. Paul appears to refer, when he says, "But I was free born."" Isn't the line about the line out of Exodus? Frederick A Ross (1796-1883), Presbyterian abolitionist: "With no false ideas of created equality and unalienable right, but with the Bible in his heart and hand, he will do justice and love mercy in higher and higher rule. Every evil will be removed, and the negro will be elevated to the highest attainments he can make, and be prepared for whatever destiny God intends. This, sir, is the _fourth result_ of your agitation:--to make the Southern master _know_, from the Bible, his right to be a master, and his duty to his slave." Gaustad & Schmidt, The Religious History of America: "Like a rag doll, the Bible was tossed back and forth, now quoted to support slavery, now to attack it. The Christian religion was now the slaves' dearest freind, now their betrayer and deceiver. The church could be a station in the underground railroad, helping to spirit away runaway slaves to freedom, or the church could be the gathering place from which to send out patrols to recapture slaves or break up their religious mettings. Both sides, as Abraham Lincoln later and sorrowfully observed, "read the same Bible, and pray to the same God." The prayyers of both, he added, could not be answered." History. Repeats itself. Same old argument. Will the circle remain unbroken? |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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