Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Campfire Soapbox. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Gay Priest Speaks Out; an interview
Topic Started: Oct 11 2005, 04:51 PM (1,274 Views)
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
So the story of the Bible is the history of seeking, sometimes mistaking, sometimes losing the way, and but in the end coming to that one simple truth.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
New tack.

What I learned this go around. The controversy is not new. It has raged for the entire history of Christianity.

Question for paragons of Christianity: When stating your/its particular stance on the issue, do you/your churches/denominations/what-have-you honestly (a commandment) admit it has been a controversy throughout Christianity?


Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PRT
Member
cmoehle
Oct 15 2005, 08:09 AM
So the story of the Bible is the history of seeking, sometimes mistaking, sometimes losing the way, and but in the end coming to that one simple truth.

I kind of like this one -

Quote:
 


    On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." (NIV, Luke 10:25-37 )



As to your second question - and I don't consider myself a paragon of Christianity - I frankly do not recall ever hearing anything about homosexuallity from the pulpit or from a professor's lectern. I graduated from a Catholic high school ('61) and college ('65) but doubt if I took religion in college beyond freshman year. That being said, I don't know that human sexuality would have been discussed in those venues way back in '62 for example.

In my mind, homosexuality would have been lumped with birth control (got a lot of info about that!) since the sexual act is designed for procreation, with pleasure as an offshoot (per Church teachings but don't ask me to find a reference!)

With the exception of the couple who just had their 16th child, I'm sure there are Christians out there who are not Catholics who practice birth control. Kind of an old joke that big families must be Catholics...

Maybe birth control would be a good topic on a sn**y day. :cool: Other than " do not sow your seed upon the ground" or whatever that is, I don't know where the bible teaches about birth control, but I've never admitted to knowing the bible. If the Catholic church interprets my mangled phrase as a comment on birth control, what do other Christians interpret it as?

So, I'll just stick to trying to love others as I love myself :)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
I like that one too. To bad some disregard it.

Real paragons are those who do not claim it.

I can understand procreation arguments about homosexuality not contributing to the population explosion--a twist, I admit. ;)


Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TexasShadow
Member Avatar
Jane
Chris,
it seems to me that you are asking:
if our society adopted an "old time religion" system of law, would we christians and jews start burning witches and killing homos and adulterers, etc. again?

In short, NO.
Some would want to, but the majority would not.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
You are right, some would want to.

You are right, mainstream Christians would not.

What I was asking before with my reductio absurdum was how can you take a sentenceout of the Bible, accept half of it, but reject the other half? Smacks of moral relativism you ask me.

I was raised a Christian, as I have said before, and I ask these questions, as you must know, as a doubter, a skeptic. Some answers are attractive, some repellant.

I was asked recently, are you an atheist. I answered, honestly, not yet.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TexasShadow
Member Avatar
Jane
Quote:
 
how can you take a sentence out of the Bible, accept half of it, but reject the other half?


Well, I think Cal-Red? answered that when he pointed to Christ making the difference...
but
I think of it another way.
First of all, you have to take the WHOLE Bible and summarize a message from it.
The Bible is pieces of truth all adding up to One big Truth.
Next, you should look at the Bible as like a history of a Parent raising a child and the child is a community.
Or you can look at it as you would watch a potter forming a bowl.
God was forming a particular culture... a new kind, and it needed reformation from the ground up.
It begins with stories children(primitives) can understand. It progresses to the formation of a group...not just physically, but morally. You establish rules and penalities and make promises and use the reward/punishment method, and you're consistent.
As the child grows, you alter the methods of punishment (you don't spank a teenager)
When the child(society) is deemed ready for personal responsibility, you set it free...no more rewards/punishments...the kid is on his own, willing to remain true to the values he was taught(and reap the rewards) or go his own way(and lose the benefits), but always welcome to come home(to those values) again.

The Bible gives us a history of the progression of mankind's journey to God or a higher plane of life. We ain't there, yet. :)

Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
And you are stumbling over issues like homosexuality, imo.

Cal like Jelly begged the question. It still stands.

Jane, yours is a nice extended metaphor. But I think John (passinthru) provided the message: Oct 15 2005, 07:06 AM.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TexasShadow
Member Avatar
Jane
Chris

one of the teachings of the catholic church (and probably most of the others)
is that evil is often mistaken for good because the evil APPEARS to be good.

Most of us believe, for instance, that tolerance is good because it means we mind our own business and accept people's quirks/habits/lifestyles.
But being friends with homosexuals doesn't mean you have to agree that homosexual acts are okay.
Being friends with a woman who has aborted her baby doesn't mean you have to agree that what she did is ok. A hug of compassion is NOT an endorsement of the act.
We can like people in spite of their actions. If they demand that we like or endorse what they do, tough luck. That's unreasonable on their part. It's like trying to make us accomplices in their actions.

I think we can interpret the Leviticus verses as meaning "get rid of this abominable action in your community"
For people in that time, it was taken to mean kill the perps. For us today, it means get rid of the action by refusing to agree that it is ok.

re not an atheist yet. :) It's my opinion that one can intellectualize one's beliefs...to death.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
Jane

With all due respect....


"evil is often mistaken for good because the evil APPEARS to be good."

Tell me, how do you know? Appearances.


You, personally, do not have to agree with homosexuality. Fine.

I don't hear you telling me I must diagree, like some others who insist I must or be condemned. My arguement there is s not with you or those who believe like you.



"We can like people in spite of their actions..." is an entirely different discussion.



"I think we can interpret..."

OK, so can I, differently, right? Where does that leave us?

I have offered justifications for my interpretation. No one else has gone beyond I think, I believe.



Jane: "re not an atheist yet. smile.gif It's my opinion that one can intellectualize one's beliefs...to death."

And one can follow faith-based rationalization to death.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TexasShadow
Member Avatar
Jane
Chris
:tiphat: :)
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cmoehle
Member Avatar
Chris - San Antonio TX
Over 2000 years of debate continues. :tiphat: :)
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jelly Bean
Member Avatar
Member
TexasShadow
Oct 15 2005, 03:10 PM
Quote:
 
how can you take a sentence out of the Bible, accept half of it, but reject the other half?


Well, I think Cal-Red? answered that when he pointed to Christ making the difference...
but
I think of it another way.
First of all, you have to take the WHOLE Bible and summarize a message from it.
The Bible is pieces of truth all adding up to One big Truth.
Next, you should look at the Bible as like a history of a Parent raising a child and the child is a community.
Or you can look at it as you would watch a potter forming a bowl.
God was forming a particular culture... a new kind, and it needed reformation from the ground up.
It begins with stories children(primitives) can understand. It progresses to the formation of a group...not just physically, but morally. You establish rules and penalities and make promises and use the reward/punishment method, and you're consistent.
As the child grows, you alter the methods of punishment (you don't spank a teenager)
When the child(society) is deemed ready for personal responsibility, you set it free...no more rewards/punishments...the kid is on his own, willing to remain true to the values he was taught(and reap the rewards) or go his own way(and lose the benefits), but always welcome to come home(to those values) again.

The Bible gives us a history of the progression of mankind's journey to God or a higher plane of life. We ain't there, yet. :)

very good rundown shadow!!!!!!
And NOT difficult to understand!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jelly Bean
Member Avatar
Member
cmoehle
Oct 15 2005, 12:18 PM
New tack.

What I learned this go around. The controversy is not new. It has raged for the entire history of Christianity.


try even the history of the world...sin has ALWAYS been with man since garden days...and man has ALWAYS had trouble recognizing their sin.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jelly Bean
Member Avatar
Member
cmoehle
Oct 15 2005, 05:56 AM
Jelly Bean
Oct 15 2005, 04:31 AM
cmoehle
Oct 14 2005, 02:59 AM






I notice no one touched this Bible says then in the second passage that homosexuals should be put to death.

Why is that? When are you going to start the killing?

We do not have to kill anyone or even ourselves...because we are ALREADY CONDEMNED.

Just think sinners sitting on death row, k?
Why are we just abiding time?
Because God has a SALVATION program in store...., and we with repentance now, we can be saved from the punishment. We are to preach the Gospel to the whole world...what is the Gospel? = Christ came to save a condemned world
READ BIBLE FOR DETAILS

Mr Hyde: So we're all going to hell now?

Dr Jeckyl: So we're all saved now?

Will you make up your mind?


"READ BIBLE FOR DETAILS"

I have. I find the same confusion you find. We're condemned, we're saved, we're condemned, we're save--what will we be when the last petal of the flower is plucked?

sorry Chris that you are confused.
I'm not..lol
It fits together fine to me, and I do understand it.
Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde?
What a strange comparison for you to make, and an unflattering one at that.
I suspect that might be part of the problem for you, and in your misunderstanding of scripture..

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Soapbox · Next Topic »
Add Reply