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Gay Priest Speaks Out; an interview
Topic Started: Oct 11 2005, 04:51 PM (1,277 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Sounds like is a comment on what is said in this thread about celebacy. I've never concerned myself about celebacy, so wouldn't say personally off hand.

No claim I've ever seen that the Bible says anything about homosexuality has convinced me the claimant is doing anything but reading personal opinion into "the WORD of God". I have several times presented linguistic and historic evidence to support that it does not, that no one has in a convining way countered or accounted for that evidence.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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tomdrobin
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My brother in law had been a protestant minister for at least 25 to 30 years. He was well respected and had his Phd. in theology and had headed several church and affiliated schools. The details were hushed up, but he some how go involved in an inappropriate incident with a woman he was suppossed to be counciling. He was booted like an NFL punt. And, is now selling real estate. What has got the catholic church in trouble on this issue isn't about celibacy or gays. It's about the church making organized efforts to cover wrongdoing and protecting wrongdoers. In the end it is cost them more than if they had expelled the wrongdoers at the first sign there was a problem.
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CalRed
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Chris, maybe you should read it again...
Something instead of Nothing?

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle.
God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
Alan Sandage

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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
OK, still see nothing.

Some Christians agree, some disagree, some don't care. Which one is right?

When did the disagreement begin? Anyone have a history of this disagreement?

Did Christians debate this earlier than say the 1940s when a few decided to rewrite the Bible in support of their interpretation and add for the first time the word homosexual?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Jelly Bean
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cmoehle
Oct 13 2005, 04:10 AM
Did Christians debate this earlier than say the 1940s when a few decided to rewrite the Bible in support of their interpretation and add for the first time the word homosexual?

oh my :)
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Naturally, I have found the answer to my own question. It seems this has been debated since early Christain times: History of Christianity and homosexuality:
Quote:
 
The history of early Christianity and homosexuality has been much debated. Some maintain early Christian Churches deplored same-sex relationships, while others maintain they accepted these relationships on the level of their heterosexual counterparts.

These disagreements concern, in some cases, the translations of certain terms, or the meaning and context of some passages.

Much more there at the end of that link. Seems over 2000 years of debate has settled nothing on the word fo God on this matter.

In light of that for some few Christians to rewrite the Bible in the 40s is not only deceitful about the controversy but rather arrogant to think they have some special knowledge of God's word.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Chris:

1. Leviticus 18:22-23 ";You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. Also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion."

2. Leviticus 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."


This is pretty plain language.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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Colo_Crawdad
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Lowell
TexasShadow,

I have read evidence presented by some Christian groups that both of those piece of scripture originally referred to male prostitution rather than to homosexuality and that revisionists since that time have added the interpretation of reference to homosexuality. Simply quoting those scriptures does not settle the 2,000 year old argument.
"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo
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TexasShadow
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Jane
CC

well, none of us can be sure of how much of the Torah is from God's mouth to Moses' ears :)
I tend to think most of it is from Moses who developed a practical application for something he sensed (divine inspiration) and from tribal lore/memories.
The jews regard the Torah as coming in two packages...with the Oral Torah being the expanded version of the Written Torah.
Me, I think the oral torah came first and was summarized in the written one sometime around 700BCE.

To me, the message in Leviticus appears to limit sexual activities to male and female couples, period. no same sex stuff and no beastiality.

Interestingly, some orthodox jews regard the taboo as limited to male sex acts...not women. (possibly because women were kept in harems and/or because there is no penetration between women..who knows for sure?) :)
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Linguistic Argument.

Allow me to quote out of context. "a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman". Let's say that's all we have to consider. Lies is ambiguous. Could, given this little context, mean lie as in sex or lie as in not tell the truth. Laugh you might but without more context you cannot disambiguate.

Logical Argument

Let's assume "a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman" is an admonishment against homosexual sex. Such an assumption leads to an absurdity. For how can a man lie with a man the same way he lies with a woman, it is physically impossible as men and women are built differently. What do you now argue it's not meant literally but figuratively, idomatically, well, again, what's needed is more context.

Linguistic Context

The transliterated Hebrew is "V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee."

And the first part is thus literally translated as "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman".

The precise meaning is unclear, "lay lyings" has no obvious interpretation. It could simply mean two men should not lay in a woman's bed. Not unless you add something of your own prejudice.

Historic Context

An originalist view would consider the historic events written about.

The question to ask here is who is "you", who is the first spoken to, the second spoken about. The larger context limits this to sexual activities between two males during a Pagan temple ritual.

This is supported by the second passages imposing the death penalty, for while moral sins where subject to admonition, cerimonial or rituals sins were often punishable by death.

Linguistic Argument

Hebrew does not have a word that meant "homosexual." The word "homosexual" first appeared in the late 19th century CE. And did not appear in the Bible, one or two rewrites, until around 1945. Let's not anachronistically insert prejudices into the text.

Historic Argument

While all that may not be convincing unless you're will to study the Bible, is the mere and unsustantiated statement of I think it condemns homosexuality more convincing?

As I said earlier, after 2000 years of Christian debate, the controversy has been argued without resolution. Not sure how long the Jews have debated it.


Those are the arguments as I understand them. A lot of it, along with more details, can be found here at ReligiousTolerance.org: HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES: LEVITICUS 18:22 and HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES: LEVITICUS 20:13
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Jelly Bean
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TexasShadow
Oct 13 2005, 10:57 AM
Chris:

1. Leviticus 18:22-23 ";You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. Also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion."

2. Leviticus 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."


This is pretty plain language.

:clap: shadow not only is it plain language...but the new testament has plain language as well regarding the uses of the natural verses the unnatural...

Think innies and outies, without putting it anymore bluntly then that....is NOT difficult to figure by design. We do it daily when we work mechanically...it is how something is DESIGNED to operate.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Bible says then in the second passage that homosexuals should be put to death.

Where is the line drawn between personal belief and homophobic fear and hate?

The Westboro Baptist Church is at it again. Does anyone think them right, even think them Christian?

VFW motorcycles drown out protestors
Quote:
 
CHELSEA — God spoke with the roar of revving motorcycle engines during a protest Tuesday by six members of a Kansas church that believes God is punishing the U.S. for protecting homosexuals by killing soldiers overseas.

Chelsea residents, however, believed God spoke on their behalf as the engines of more than 100 Veterans of Foreign Wars motorcycles drowned out the voices of the Westboro Baptist Church members who were allowed to protest from 1-1:30 p.m. before the 2 p.m. funeral services for Staff Sgt. John Glen Doles.

The protesters were escorted by police from the Chelsea Police Station to and from the protest site at the corner of Sixth and Vine streets a half block away. They left immediately after the protest, said Chelsea Police Chief Kenny Kelsey.

Chelsea’s main street was lined with American Flags in honor of Doles, who was killed when he and five others were ambushed by enemy fire last week in Afghanistan. He was laid to rest with honors in a small cemetery southeast of Chelsea.

Town and local law enforcement consisting of Chelsea police, the Rogers County Sheriff’s Department and the Oklahoma Highway Patrol made good their intent that nothing would disrupt funeral services for the local hero and his family.

Chelsea Mayor Kenny Weast said he received a fax last Tuesday saying church members would be in Chelsea to protest at the funeral.

Weast contacted local law enforcement and a successful plan was devised.

Said Weast: “We planned for the worst and hoped for the best.”

Weast’s own feelings about the protest, however resonated those of the town.

“What a tragedy to have a group like this protest the day of the funeral, one of the hardest days this family will have. It makes me sick,” he said.

Kelsey, Chelsea’s chief for six months, said neither set of protesters “were allowed to cross the street and every body stuck to it.”

The American Legion Riders from Southeast Kansas, which represented a number of Kansas towns and communities along with members of other organized motorcycle groups, attended the funeral to protest the protesters.

But the No. 1 reason was to show support for Staff Sgt. Doles and his family and to oppose Fred Phelps, who is the leader of the anti-homosexual group.

The bikers succeeded in keeping the protesters out of sight and sound of the Doles family but for anyone else close enough to see their brightly colored signs spoke loud and clear: “GOD IS YOU OR ENEMY; GOD HATES THE USA; GOD IS AN AMERICAN TERRORIST; TOO LATE TO PRAY; THANK GOD FOR DEAD SOLDIERS; YOU’RE GOING TO HELL; GOD HAS SPOKEN IT’S NOT A BLESSING IT’S A CURSE and AMERICA IS DOOMED.”

The locals had a couple of signs of their own. Three older women held up a white sheet that said “SHOW AMAZING GRACE” and two young people held a cardboard sign saying “YE WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE.”

John B. Milam, a Chelsea native, said of his feelings about the protest, “I have no respect for anyone who has no respect for the dead.”

Wilma Fraley said, “I just think the family deserves a quiet, peaceful funeral for their hero. Thank God for the (local) people coming out to do this (show their support).”

At the cemetery, which was void of protesters, Doles’ team leader and 14 other fellow soldiers from Fort Polk in Louisiana who either trained or served with Doles attended the funeral.

Staff Sgt. Adam Oliver, Doles’ team leader, said, Doles “was the hardest worker I’ve ever seen in my life. He was one of those guys that everybody liked and probably the best soldier I’ve ever been in charge of. He was always willing to go the distance and beyond without ever being asked.”

Staff Sgt. Stephen Podymaitis, said “I’m just a better man for having known him.”

Podymaitis said he and his family lived next door to Doles and his family and their two sons practically grew up together.

“He brought happiness to everybody’s life,” Podymaitis said. Still in disbelief that his friend is gone Podymaitis said: “He’s a brother in arms and a brother in heart.”
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Chris, the christian way is to love the sinner, hate the sin, but as you know, many christians don't bother with the first part.
The answer is: good christians should not hesitate to correct their fire breathing brothers/sisters when they step over the line.
It's the same with any of the biggies....peaceful protesting of clinics is fine...blowing up clinics is awful.
Some folks tend to use their religion as an excuse to hurt others, but most don't because they know it is not right.

But this doesn't mean that the sin is not a sin, and that's what the homosexuals and pro choice crowd want. They want society to say it is not wrong...it's just fine and dandy.
Why? I don't know.
Myself, I've always done what I wanted to do and didn't give a rap about what other people thought about it, basing my decision on whether I was prepared to pay the price (consequences) of my actions.
Homosexuals want to do what they want to do, but they don't like being regarded as abnormal....
And the church people can see that as things are going, it won't be long before homosexuality is considered normal. That's what they hate and fear.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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PRT
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I love responding after Jane - I can always just say "what she said!" Jane, I like your style.
I seriously believe some people are going to be surprised when they meet their Maker...and see who else is there.
I really do not think Jesus was a mudslinger. Or a clinic bomber.

Following is from the King James Version of the Bible.

1Jo 4:19 We love Him, because He first loved us.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from Him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


Love is better than hate.
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CalRed
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There are many on this forum who would not believe Christ if they heard Him say it Himself.

The scriptures that have been quoted on this post are very clear to a Christian. There is nothing to interpret, no linguistic analysis required. When God says that for a man to lie with another man it is an abomination, what's so hard about that? Don't we have educated people here???

Homosexuality is wrong.

For the truly Christian standard of ethics it is the conduct of divine revelation, not of statistical analysis or public opinion.

The Christian point of view has to consider that the Bible is the final authority for believers and behavior. The Bible condemns homosexuality just as it condemns adultery; sexual intercourse of a married person with someone other than his or her own spouse. Christ also forbids the thoughts, the free play of one’s imagination towards sexual acts. (lust).

Fornication is condemned as well. Fornication is the act of illicit sex of unmarried persons. That act is just as sinful as homosexual acts.

There is hope for homosexuals however, just as there is hope for fornicators, adulterers, thieves, covetous people, drunkards and other sinners. Paul doesn’t give any of them special consideration. There is hope for us all. We must turn from sin and be washed and sanctified however.

For anyone to say there is no condemnation of homosexual activity in the Bible is to show that persons ignorance of the scriptures. There are some who attempt to open the door to immorality by referring to “the modern concept of Christian ethics.” But are those people really practicing Christians?

Calling oneself a Christian does not make it so. There is considerable difference between saying you are a Christian and practicing Christianity.

Why do homosexuals call themselves “Gay.”? Gay means lively, bright, happy and exuberant. Is there anything gay about being a homosexual? I think not. There are many bright happy. exuberant and merry people in this world who are not sexual perverts.

Homosexuality must be accepted for what God says it is—SIN.

For those of you who just don't quite understand, you don't have to convince us, you have to convince God of your beliefs.
Something instead of Nothing?

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle.
God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
Alan Sandage

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