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Gay Priest Speaks Out; an interview
Topic Started: Oct 11 2005, 04:51 PM (1,271 Views)
Fr. Mike
Member
I found this interview today and thought that it would tie in with a recent discussion we had here regarding homosexual men and the catholic priesthood.

I believe every side should be heard and thus this post.




Posted on 10/11/2005 8:49:21 AM PDT by NYer


The "anonymous gay priest" is getting a lot of attention lately. He is turning up in newspapers, on the radio, and he is getting calls from TV producers (complete with promise of fake mustache and altered voice). They are from both coasts and places in-between. Their take on recent news from the Vatican causes in them a variety of responses with some uniformity: They are hurt and they are scared.

NCR spoke with a gay priest who is active in an ethnically diverse urban parish on the East Coast. He was eager to speak out but just as eager to protect his identity and his vocation. In the interview that follows, this priest reflects on the possible release of a document barring -- or at least discouraging -- gay men from entering the seminary, news of a Vatican plan to send teams of investigators to each of the more than 200 American Catholic seminaries to gather "evidence of homosexuality" and the internal struggle of a gay priest trying to stay true to his vocation in a church that is, at best, conflicted about homosexuality and, at worst, acting out a deep prejudice.

NCR: What was your initial reaction to word of a looming Vatican document barring -- or at least discouraging -- homosexuals from entering the seminary?
Priest: I was horrified. And like many other celibate gay priests I know, I was also angry and discouraged and sad.

Were you surprised?
It's something that a lot of gay priests have been expecting. Ever since this crisis began there have been a number of bishops and even people in the Vatican who have been blaming gay priests for the sexual abuse crisis.

Certainly the majority of the cases were people preying on adolescent males and young boys. The logical fallacy, though, is to assume that every gay priest is therefore a pedophile, which is crazy -- or to assume that gay priests are not celibate, which is also crazy. Every gay priest I know is celibate. Now, I may travel in very faithful circles, but that is my experience.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls homosexual acts "intrinsically disordered" -- that is fairly well known -- but it also says a couple of things that are, relative to that statement, more affirming. It says that homosexuals "must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives." What does that mean to you?
Well, going back to this stereotype that gay priests cannot handle celibacy -- that contradicts the catechism. Either gay men can be celibate and they should be allowed to be priests, or they can't be celibate and the catechism is somehow wrong.

Gay priests are celibate. Or at least as celibate as their straight counterparts, and that message is not getting out there.

There is all this talk of "lavender" seminaries or rectories -- of a "subculture" of homosexuality. Look, there's a subculture of Irish priests. There's a subculture of priests who like football or priests who like going out and drinking beer.

The reason that the subculture of gay priests or seminarians is so offensive is this idea that you can't have gay priests together because all they do is encourage each other to act out sexually.

That said, there are some problems that gay priests need to look at. Sometimes they can be very insular, but it's not surprising for a group that's been persecuted to retreat in on itself.

What about the very elementary issue of gay celibacy versus straight celibacy?
There is very little difference. It's living your vow with integrity. It's being a loving person who is not in an exclusive relationship, who doesn't get married, who is available to people and is trying to live the way Christ lived.

The only slight difference is that gay priests live in rectories with other men. But let me tell you, if you've ever looked at the average age of priests -- the idea that somehow a retired 85-year-old priest is going to be a danger to your vocation is absurd [laughs].

Look, it's just as likely that a straight priest would have difficulties working with a sister or with a woman on his staff.

From what I understand, the Vatican might spin this as "We're trying to protect people from living in these difficult environments." That's crazy. It's the old "proximity" argument that they used in the military: Homosexuals can't control themselves.

Ratzinger addressed this in a 1992 document issued from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith: "What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behavior of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive."

I think if a document comes out barring people who feel a real vocation and who have discerned it over the years with their spiritual advisers and their rectors, [barring them] from pursuing that vocation -- a document like that would be close to sinful. They would be denying the people of God the graces of the priesthood.

Do any of your parishioners know you're gay?
A few of them.

How did you come out to them?
The more they get to know me the more they want to know my inner life. This is a big part of my inner life. It's not the only part and its not the most important part -- the most important part is my priesthood -- but there will be times when someone will say something like, "Don't you miss having a family?" and I don't think I should lie to people. It's almost sinful to conceal those kinds of things, especially when people are struggling with homosexuality and struggling with how to accept their gay friends, daughters and sons, brothers and sisters. It's important for them to be able to talk to somebody they know is open-minded about these things.

What has been the response in your parish to a potential Vatican document barring -- or at least discouraging -- homosexuals from entering seminary?
The few parishioners who know I'm gay are upset and sad for me. They know it's a real burden and a deeply shaming thing. But even those parishioners who do not know I'm gay and who have gay friends are really offended. And parishioners who are gay themselves are doubly offended.

A lot of my parishioners have asked what I think about the document. I feel a little uncomfortable because this is not a big issue for me -- I've never read any books on gay spirituality. A lot of critics say that gay priests see themselves as gay first, which is bullshit. I see myself as a Christian first -- I'm a Catholic and a priest who happens to be gay.

I'd rather be talking about -- I was going to say I'd rather be talking about the Gospel, but maybe this is the Gospel [laughs].

Do you ever address the issue of homosexuality from the pulpit?
I don't think my bishop would be very happy if I got up in the pulpit and talked about myself as a gay man. I'm really sad about that. But I sure have preached about it, I've preached about homophobia and persecution of gays.

It must be hard to get so close to the issue and not bring in your own experiences.
Yeah, it is. It makes me feel like I'm being a little dishonest. It's like a Jewish person getting up in some public setting and speaking about anti-Semitism without saying he or she was Jewish.

It's strange. In a sense I feel sometimes that I'm perpetuating the problem by not speaking out.

But you are speaking out, albeit anonymously. How strong is the temptation to come out more directly as a gay priest?
These days I try to figure out what God wants me to do each day. Things have been changing so quickly over the last couple of weeks.

From where I stand right now -- if that document banning gay priests comes out, then I would have to come out too. It would be a matter of conscience. I don't know how I could defend not coming out and keeping silent.

In a church that was more open-minded, gay priests would be seen as a benefit of the church and not some sort of curse. Like any cultural minority, gay priests bring something different to the table.

You know Paul's image of the body? We are basically going against Paul's image of the body -- we are saying we have no need of the hand or we have no need of the eye.

If you were allowed to be completely open about your sexuality, how do you think your parishioners benefit?
I've learned -- through my own struggle with coming to love myself and understand that God loves me as I am -- that the part of yourself that you struggle with the most is often the part where God meets you the most powerfully.

For my parishioners who are gay and lesbian it would be good to be able to talk with them honestly about the fact that God loves them. Period. That is not often the message they get from the church.

In private I talk about that with people who are struggling but I can't share my own very personal experience and struggle. I can't speak directly from experience.

And parishioners who may be uncomfortable with homosexuality have no idea that they are interacting -- sometimes very closely -- with a real, live gay man. They are denied an opportunity for transformation.
Right. I think like in any situation where you have prejudices against some group of people -- you meet someone who is part of that group and suddenly your prejudices are shattered.

If an openly gay man, committed to living celibately, were to come to you today seeking your counsel on joining the priesthood, what would you tell him?
I'd say wait until this document comes out. I know a couple of guys who have entered seminary this year. One of them is just beside himself. And I know a few people who are in seminary who are not too far from ordination who are just absolutely devastated. They don't know what to do. They spent years thinking about their vocation and thinking about the priesthood and thinking about entering seminary.

And interestingly, even if the document doesn't come out, there is going to be this tension -- this threat that the document might come out. Certainly the Vatican is not going to say, "We welcome gay men with open arms." And they're probably not going to say, "We're not going to issue a document like this."

If a document comes out barring homosexuals from entering the priesthood you are going to have gay men who feel that they can live celibately and who feel called to the priesthood turning away from it. You will have a severe reduction in vocations. And you are going to have gay seminarians who are celibate and gay and who are going to be faced with this horrible choice: Either leave the seminary and turn away from your call or lie about your sexuality so you can get ordained. Frankly, lying as a way of approaching sacramental orders is just incredible. And you want to talk about a healthy way to live celibately? I guarantee you, the worst preparation for it is not talking about it.

And then you will have gay priests who will be demoralized even further. Some of them will leave -- I know a surprising number of people who have told me in the past couple of weeks that they would answer any move by the Vatican to discourage or bar homosexuals from the priesthood by turning away from the priesthood.

To be a gay man in an organization that says we should have no gay men is just too much for some people.

News of this proposed document has placed an enormous amount of stress on me personally. I don't know what to do anymore. I don't know what kinds of plans I should be making. It's very difficult to do the work of a priest and to celebrate Mass and baptisms and hear confessions and have this sword hanging over your head. It's tremendously stressful.

Among the gay priests you know, what has been the reaction to word of the Vatican document and the seminary visitations?
One end of the spectrum is silent, passive demoralization. In the middle are the people who want to do something but don't know what. They're angry and their hurt and they're scared. They're terrified.

At the other end of the spectrum are the people who say, "I'd have to leave."

Despite what people think about the "subculture," there is no national network of gay priests. So I think that people would start to do things on their own. You'd begin to see priests leaving. You'd have some telling their parishioners why and you'd have some just leaving. And you'd start to see priests coming out. Maybe they'll talk to the local newspaper. Maybe they'll write about it in the parish bulletin. Maybe they'll preach about it.

Where in that spectrum of response do you place yourself?
I still want to work with my bishop. I don't want to disrespect him or make his life more difficult. I took a promise of obedience when I was ordained and I want to trust that God's going to work through that.

What it means to be Catholic for me is to be part of a family of faith and I care too much about this family not to try to fix it where there are problems.

But by the same token, I think that if that document comes out, then I'd have to come out as well. If at the end of my life I'm looking back and saying what should I have done, I don't want to be like those priests who kept silent during the persecution of the Jews in Nazi Germany. I don't want to look back and say that I should have stood up. Perfect fear casts out love.

You said you don't know what kind of plans to make anymore and that you have friends -- gay priests -- who are considering leaving the priesthood.
It throws everything into question. I don't want to leave -- you're a priest forever, as they say in the ordination rite -- I don't want to leave but I also don't want to have to compromise my integrity.

The irony for many of us is that the very place where we were able to experience great spiritual freedom -- the church and seminary formation -- seems as if it is becoming the place where we're going to have that freedom taken away from us.

It's as if Jesus came back to the disciples and said, "Oh, by the way, the truth doesn't set you free."

You have to continually go back to Jesus. The only real role model for gay priests is Jesus. And I fear that Calvary is coming sooner than we thought.

In the final analysis, do we really believe that the truth sets us free? Do we really believe that the Holy Spirit calls all sorts of different people to the ministry? Do we really believe that the body is made up of many members? Do we really believe that God loves all of us as we are?

All these questions are very important for Catholics to reflect on because if the Vatican does release a document barring homosexuals from the priesthood, such a document would answer no to all of those questions.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ

Don't forget to say your prayers!
The unborn have rights too.
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Jelly Bean
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I tend to agree with you space...each side should be heard, to fully be able to understand how we think and feel about these important subjects regarding our churches and sexuality. Here is an article posted from a man who use to be celibate, who feels now, that it shouldn't be forced:
http://www.salon.com/sex/feature/2002/03/1...nedy/index.html

Quote:
 
Confessions of a former celibate
A former priest, now married, thinks celibacy should no longer be an absolute condition for the priesthood.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Eugene Kennedy

March 16, 2002  |  Let me place my card on your tray. I lived as a celibate priest for 22 years and have now lived for 25 years as a married man. While a priest I headed the psychological panel of a multidisciplinary study of the American priesthood that was commissioned by the country's Catholic bishops. As a psychologist I have been privileged to hear from the inside how priests live the celibate commitment that is required in the Roman Church.

With the misplaced confidence of people who think their troubles will end if they win the lottery, some say that the church's problems in recruiting priests would end if celibacy were abolished. Celibacy is, I believe, a valid choice for mature men and women who want to give their lives and energy to a special cause, such as serving the poor or teaching the young. Only healthy persons -- those who give without taking back more in return -- can make such a choice, and the world is filled with dedicated priests and nuns who are models of this. Celibacy should, therefore, be made optional and should no longer be an absolute condition for becoming a priest. (On Friday the Boston Archdiocese's official newspaper ran an editorial calling for an examination of this issue.)

The wider world does not lack for celibates. These are people so involved in their callings that they are fulfilled as they fulfill others. For many people, who give so much time to their work that they hardly recognize their own children, a secular celibacy would make sense. They could stay in their laboratories or their offices and avoid the collateral damage they do to wives and children by chronically neglecting them. Is there a story sadder than that of a grown-up who has spent all his life trying to find his father -- that man, neither celibate, married nor mature, who was never really present for his children? Narcissists, for example, are a menace sexually and humanly, consuming people without a backward glance. They, rather than priests, should live lives of enforced celibacy.

When you hear good people speak honestly about their lives, whether they are priests, professors or private eyes, you are more touched by the poignancy of their accounts than appalled by the problems of their sexual experiences. You emerge, blinking into the daylight, feeling the profound truth of psychiatrist Harry Stack Sullivan's observation that "We are much more simply human than anything else."

All the tales, whether of men seeking to preserve or to lose their virginity, are touching for they are variations on the theme of how, despite years in cloistered monasteries or in wide-open modernity, so many struggle to understand their sexuality and to meet the expectations, whether heavenly or worldly, of being a man in serene and confident control of all the elements of sexuality.

For the most mature of men -- that's the short line over there -- sexuality is often as much a puzzle as it is a test. It may be compared to a choir of voices that seems to have been organized without consultation with the person involved. Despite rehearsals it never sounds like the Mormon Tabernacle choir. There are times when the harmony is almost complete but, as in anything human, it is never perfect and stray notes and flat tones are often heard. Sometimes the choir surprises us with what they choose to sing; sometimes they refuse to sing at all.

How human, all of this concern, attested to by every rack of magazine covers, the women's magazines trumpeting what men want and the men's magazines explaining what women want, month after month, year after year. One feels like the French priest who, after hearing confessions in the mud and blood of World War I, told André Malraux of how like children most men were.
I have, therefore, listened with a sympathy born of the at-heart innocence of so many men who have felt every emotion of obsessive self-appraisal and self-doubt in trying to live as sexual beings. Next to sex, and perhaps related to it, only golf finds men talking so much about the game -- how they play it, how they played it, how they will play it next time -- except that they play it with each other and are sometimes terrified that, if they let women into the club, they will charge into the locker room and find them all naked. There is, I believe, less sin and certainly less sophistication than is supposed concerning sex in American men.

Celibacy means the unmarried state. It has been a requirement for the Roman Catholic priesthood since the 10th century, when Pope St. Gregory the Great forced it on the clergy to end the abuse of their passing on church lands to their heirs. It has always been and is still considered a discipline rather than a virtue. Chastity is a virtue and applies not just to priests but to all men as a condition of their fidelity in their marital relationship.

Celibacy as an optional choice for dedicated people must argue for itself. Its possibilities are so often dismissed, and its repeal is considered the answer to all church problems, because the traditional arguments for it are based on a corrupted image of human personality and highly questionable biblical citations.

The image, as graven as any in a pagan temple, of personality as divided into antagonistic elements, has caused many good and decent people to feel guilty for being human and having sexual feelings and longings. That model, nowhere to be found in the attitudes of Jesus, explicitly says that the spirit is good and the flesh is not; that the soul is imprisoned in a betraying body, and that religion is a matter of the will rather than the imagination. It is wrong on all counts and has caused great and unnecessary suffering in a world in which there has never been a shortage of pain. A healthy attitude toward the person -- not to be confused with some men's magazine advocacy of me-first, you pick up the check, sexuality -- heals the wounds that have been kept open for centuries because of the official church's distorted perception of personality.

The scriptural and theological arguments offered to support celibacy as a spiritual ideal recommended by Jesus do not hold up under current scholarly examination. The famous quotation from Jesus, "Let him who can take it, take it," refers not to celibacy but to his teaching a truly revolutionary doctrine about Jewish marriage. Up until that time, men had been allowed to dismiss their wives for trivial reasons, such as bad housekeeping, but Jesus condemns this, saying that they cannot marry again after discarding a wife so casually. Even a nonscholarly reading of the passage (Matthew 19: 3-13) confirms the reference (Jack Welch, among others, please take note).

How, then, do priests, forced to accept this condition, live it? In our in-depth study of priests (The Catholic Priest: Psychological Investigations, United States Catholic Conference, 1972) we learned that well-developed men observed the celibacy requirement with great fidelity. Yet these, the most mature of priests, did not live it as this sweetly singing virtue, as much as they adjusted to it as a bland circumstance of their service to their people.

How did they adjust to it? The only way that priests adjust well to celibate living is through a network of strong supportive human relationships. At that time, the culture of the priesthood provided such relationships in the high-spirited fraternity that characterized their life together in rectories. Additional research at the time revealed that almost all successful celibates also had close nonsexual relationships with women, often with one of their sisters but just as often with a member of the parish -- a mother and wife, perhaps, who welcomed the priest into her family life.

Priests who were less well-developed displayed a range of maladjustments, ranging from an isolated bachelorhood to severe psychological conflicts. Celibacy, however, did not so much cause these problems as it brought them out in people who brought into seminaries their long-standing serious internal difficulties.

Celibacy, then, was clearly oversold as a virtue and underexamined as a manner of living. Since that time, and largely because of changes in the source and number of candidates for the priesthood caused by sociological upward mobility of Catholics in general, church officials have accepted men less psychologically robust to fill the empty places. These men have evinced greater problems understanding and managing their sexuality but, again, these are conflicts they brought in their baggage to the seminary. Among these has been a small but substantial number of men with poorly differentiated sexual identities. These preadolescent priests, victims first of the system that accepted them, went on to victimize in numbers almost beyond belief the children placed in their care.

Celibacy is not the cause of priestly pedophilia. It is, however, a condition and requirement that needs what the pope refuses to allow, namely an in-depth examination of the real-time, real-life celibate existence. Unexamined and falsely and fragilely celebrated as a great virtue, it has become at least the partial source of an ongoing misunderstanding and misinterpretation of human personality in which flesh and spirit, soul and body, imagination and will, are made antagonists in a long unrelieved siege. That is the wound that remains unhealed in the church, a wound that has affected not only the lives of priests but of men across cultures who are puzzled by being made to feel guilty for being human and having sexual feelings.

The dedicated celibate priest may well be able to express his generativity through giving of himself to his parishioners and their families. Still, the man capable of choosing optional celibacy for the right reasons is relatively rare. Most priests adjust to celibacy and find ways to adjust to their sexuality as well. They are very like other men in the way that they do this and they certainly are not strangers to sexual expression. While many of them are truly heroic, others feel the burdens of their state very greatly. What they miss is not so much sexual gratification as a relationship with a woman of which sexual intimacy is a rich and confirming element.

That, of course, is what every person seeks. Seeking it, they may have one-night stands and the next-morning blues -- that touching symptom and side effect of America's search for true love -- and that surely reveals nothing but their humanity. So I look with great sympathy on all men and women and think that the church should do everything it can, as Pope John XXIII said, "to make the human sojourn on earth less sad." Making celibacy optional would help, affirming the unity of the human person would help more, doing everything to support people as they search for love would be best of all.

I was happy and very busy as a celibate. I am happier and just as busy as a married man. It is not the state in itself that guarantees that but the nature of the human relationships involved. I am that lucky fellow, a happy man, who found in relationship to my wife the kind of love that can never be found in friendship. While officials in the church tried to humiliate me for choosing to leave the priesthood for marriage, I have been fortunate that whatever is healthy in me and my wife has always been stronger than what is ill in many church officials.

Sexuality is an integral part of loving someone else. Nobody is married long without realizing that nourishing the relationship in a hundred small ways is the best seasoning for sexual intimacy. Sexual relations outside tenderness and an understanding of our fundamental human imperfection will never sustain love. It is just the other way around. Perhaps it would be better to teach courses, in seminaries and grade schools, about the mysteries of friendship and love rather than sex education.

I cannot close without a special word for a group of men who deserve great understanding and great praise. These are the priests, many of them old men now, who remained courageously and dutifully in the priesthood even though they never really wanted to be priests in the first place. So powerful was the culture when they were adolescents, however, and so demanding many of their mothers that there should be a priest in the family, that they felt that they had no choice and stuck it out, serving well with a great secret sorrow.

One of them spoke to me recently of how the once dominating institution of the church forced him to accept a celibacy that, as he sees it now, "robbed my life from me." He paused, "I feel it," he said, "when I see children who could be my grandchildren and great grandchildren. They could have been mine, these little ones with their daddies. That is how I feel the loss."

He sighed, this good man, worn out and worn down and filled with dreams of what might have been. It is clearly not the sex that he longs for but the family life that is beyond his reach now. "As I talk," he said, "it may sound as if I am criticizing the church. I am an American and I can criticize it. I'm a Catholic and proud of it. Does the church really understand celibacy? I don't think so. What I have seen is the institution's heartlessness, the way it controls men this way. These feelings are buried in a lot of guys."

He speaks for many priests, yes, but he speaks for American men as well. He speaks for all those who, under the shadow of the institutional church's negative and divided view of personality, suffer unnecessarily just for being human.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Good article. Makes the issue human, makes the gay priest human--especially one who says "bullshit"! :)

I'm curious how the Vatican could even consider coming out with an edic abainst its own catechism: The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls homosexual acts "intrinsically disordered" -- that is fairly well known -- but it also says a couple of things that are, relative to that statement, more affirming. It says that homosexuals "must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives."
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
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TexasShadow
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Jane
The hierarchy is running scared and trying to avoid any more big lawsuits, but they're focussing on the wrong target. Straight guys like young chicks and gay men like young men.
Pedophilia is not any more a gay thing than it is a hetero thing.

My philosophy re gay priests and priests with girlfriends or once-a-year "time outs" from their vows of celibacy is:
What I don't know won't hurt me.
In other words, if a priest doesn't flaunt his sexual inclinations or his sins, then he's only hurting himself, not me.
If a priest is good at his job of being a shepherd to his flock, then what he does in secret is up to him and God.
I don't want to know about it. I don't want him to confess it to me. Some things are just better left concealed because revelation can hurt as much as deceit.

Is it hypocrisy? Maybe, but I read something a long time ago in some novel.
It said that hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue.
In the catholic world I know, INCLINATIONS are venial sins, not mortal ones, so it doesn't matter (to me) if the priest is gay or straight...his vow of celibacy covers that.
And we ALL have inclinations to one thing or another (7 deadly sins).
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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PRT
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What Jane said. :clap: :clap:

The hierarchy of the Church is woefully out of touch with American Catholics, I'm afraid. Lay and clerical. I think our hierarchy may be showing signs of coming around, but Rome hasn't caught on; nor do I think it will very soon. I'm not too sure who they are in touch with - mass attendance in western Europe is notoriously low.

From the artice Fr. Mike cited:
Quote:
 
Do we really believe that the Holy Spirit calls all sorts of different people to the ministry? Do we really believe that the body is made up of many members? Do we really believe that God loves all of us as we are?

All these questions are very important for Catholics to reflect on because if the Vatican does release a document barring homosexuals from the priesthood, such a document would answer no to all of those questions.


The church is kind of in a "right church, wrong pew" mode on this one. My 2¢.

Interesting statistics about Catholic population here. The site was updated in September 2005.
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Fr. Mike
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I personally have had no problem with other priests over the sexual orientation issue.

The powers that be need to get out of Rome and out into the countryside. I believe they become insulated from those they have vowed to sheperd and out of touch with the one they vowed to serve.
A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ

Don't forget to say your prayers!
The unborn have rights too.
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Jelly Bean
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I agree, get out of Rome, and be where the people are! It will be interesting how it all pans out in the end...and if finally the catholic church will stop forbidding men to marry in order to be priests. So burdensome for some to have to try and fight their flesh, when they could be married and still serve the Lord as a priest or a nun.
If they are not called to a celibate lifestyle..then why would the church force them to deny their flesh when the marriage bed is undefiled?
It isn't biblical, and the Bible even teaches about it being wrong to forbid marrying. Encouraging to stay single for God, like Paul did, is not to be misconstrued into the practices that are going on today in the catholic church. Encourage, if one can, to remain single..but never forbid, like is being done today!
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Jelly Bean
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1 Timothy 4

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.





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Jelly Bean
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here is another site that speaks about celibacy in the priesthood: It's all related, in a way...what is considered lawful and not...homosexuals as priests, women as priests, married men as priests...? All questions for some, answers for others..all sides should be considered, and of course the WORD of God should have it's final say.

http://www.futurechurch.org/fpm/history.htm

Quote:
 
A Brief History of Celibacy in the
Catholic Church
First Century
Peter, the first pope, and the apostles that Jesus chose were, for the most part, married men. The New Testament implies that women presided at eucharistic meals in the early church.

Second and Third Century
Age of Gnosticism: light and spirit are good, darkness and material things are evil. A person cannot be married and be perfect. However, most priests were married.

Fourth Century
306-Council of Elvira, Spain, decree #43: a priest who sleeps with his wife the night before Mass will lose his job.
325-Council of Nicea: decreed that after ordination a priest could not marry. Proclaimed the Nicene Creed.
352-Council of Laodicea: women are not to be ordained. This suggests that before this time there was ordination of women.
385-Pope Siricius left his wife in order to become pope. Decreed that priests may no longer sleep with their wives.

Fifth Century
401-St. Augustine wrote, “Nothing is so powerful in drawing the spirit of a man downwards as the caresses of a woman.”

Sixth Century
567-2nd Council of Tours: any cleric found in bed with his wife would be excommunicated for a year and reduced to the lay state.
580-Pope Pelagius II: his policy was not to bother married priests as long as they did not hand over church property to wives or children.
590-604-Pope Gregory “the Great” said that all sexual desire is sinful in itself (meaning that sexual desire is intrinsically evil?).

Seventh Century
France: documents show that the majority of priest were married.

Eighth Century
St. Boniface reported to the pope that in Germany almost no bishop or priest was celibate.

Ninth Century
836-Council of Aix-la-Chapelle openly admitted that abortions and infanticide took place in convents and monasteries to cover up activities of uncelibate clerics.
St. Ulrich, a holy bishop, argued from scripture and common sense that the only way to purify the church from the worst excesses of celibacy was to permit priests to marry.

Eleventh Century
1045-Pope Boniface IX dispensed himself from celibacy and resigned in order to marry.
1074-Pope Gregory VII said anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy: ‘priests [must] first escape from the clutches of their wives.’
1095-Pope Urban II had priests’ wives sold into slavery, children were abandoned.

Twelfth Century
1123-Pope Calistus II: First Lateran Council decreed that clerical marriages were invalid.
1139-Pope Innocent II: Second Lateran Council confirmed the previous council’s decree.

Fourteenth Century
Bishop Pelagio complains that women are still ordained and hearing confessions.

Fifteenth Century
Transition; 50% of priests are married and accepted by the people.

Sixteenth Century
1545-63-Council of Trent states that celibacy and virginity are superior to marriage.
1517-Martin Luther.
1530-Henry VIII.

Seventeenth Century
Inquisition. Galileo. Newton.

Eighteenth Century
1776-American Declaration of Independence.
1789-French Revolution.

Nineteenth Century
1804-Napoleon.
1882-Darwin.
1847-Marx, Communist Manifesto.
1858-Freud.
1869-First Vatican Council; infallibility of pope.

Twentieth Century
1930-Pope Pius XI: sex can be good and holy.
1951-Pope Pius XII: married Lutheran pastor ordained catholic priest in Germany.
1962-Pope John XXIII: Vatican Council II; vernacular; marriage is equal to virginity.
1966-Pope Paul VI: celibacy dispensations.
1970s-Ludmilla Javorova and several other Czech women ordained to serve needs of women imprisoned by Communists.
1978-Pope John Paul II: puts a freeze on dispensations.
1983-New Canon Law.
1980-Married Anglican/Episcopal pastors are ordained as catholic priests in the U.S.; also in Canada and England in 1994.

Popes who were married
St. Peter, Apostle
St. Felix III 483-492 (2 children)
St. Hormidas 514-523 (1 son)
St. Silverus (Antonia) 536-537
Hadrian II 867-872 (1 daughter)
Clement IV 1265-1268 (2 daughters)
Felix V 1439-1449 (1 son)

Popes who were the sons of other popes, other clergy
Name of Pope Papacy  Son of
St. Damascus I 366-348 St. Lorenzo, priest
St. Innocent I 401-417 Anastasius I
Boniface 418-422 son of a priest 
St. Felix 483-492 son of a priest
Anastasius II 496-498 son of a priest
St. Agapitus I 535-536
Gordiaous, priest
St. Silverus 536-537 St. Homidas, pope
Deusdedit 882-884 son of a priest
Boniface VI  896-896 Hadrian, bishop
John XI  931-935  Pope Sergius III
John XV 989-996 Leo, priest

Popes who had illegitimate children after 1139
Innocent VIII  1484-1492 several children
Alexander VI  1492-1503 several children
Julius 1503-1513 3 daughters
Paul III 1534-1549 3 sons, 1 daughter
Pius IV 1559-1565 3 sons
Gregory XIII 1572-1585 1 son

History sources:
Oxford Dictionary of Popes; H.C. Lea History of Sacerdotal Celibacy in the Christian Church 1957; E. Schillebeeckx The Church with a Human Face 1985; J. McSorley Outline History of the Church by Centuries 1957; F.A.Foy (Ed.) 1990 Catholic Almanac 1989; D.L. Carmody The Double Cross - Ordination, Abortion and Catholic Feminism 1986; P.K. Jewtt The Ordination of Women 1980; A.F. Ide God's Girls - Ordination of Women in the Early Christian & Gnostic Churches 1986; E. Schüssler Fiorenza In Memory of Her 1984; P. DeRosa Vicars of Christ 1988.

Myths and Facts
Myth: All priests take a vow of celibacy.
Fact: Most priests do not take a vow. It is a promise made before the bishop.

Myth: Celibacy is not the reason for the vocation shortage.
Fact: A 1983 survey of Protestant churches shows a surplus of clergy; the Catholic church alone has a shortage.

Myth: Clerical celibacy has been the norm since the Second Lateran Council in 1139.
Fact: Priests and even popes still continued to marry and have children for several hundred years after that date. In fact, the Eastern Catholic Church still has married priests.

In the Latin Church, one may be a married priest if:

one is a Protestant pastor first; or
if one is a life-long Catholic but promises never again to have sexual relations with one’s wife.
Myth: The vocation shortage is due to materialism and lack of faith.
Fact: Research (1985 Lilly endowment): “there is no evidence to support loss of faith for less vocations...youth volunteer and campus ministry is rising.”




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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
spacebeing
Oct 11 2005, 08:33 PM
I personally have had no problem with other priests over the sexual orientation issue.

The powers that be need to get out of Rome and out into the countryside. I believe they become insulated from those they have vowed to sheperd and out of touch with the one they vowed to serve.

And counseled by a bigger bunch of "hidden agenda" folks than the Cabinet.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Sounds like "the WORD of God" says nothing about celebacy. Nor does it say anything about homosexuality.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
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passinthru
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John - Gainesville, FL
Fr Mike
I appreciate you posting the interview. As you pointed out elsewhere, the hierarchy of the church makes little allowance for removing priests who have proven to be unfit for the priesthood because of their actions, and have been shuffled around instead of removed. I think you said, paraphrasing, that the removal process was long and involved. It is still my opinion that this is the area that the church should concentrate their efforts. There are many, many people, both in the ministry of the Catholic church and other denominations, thatare called by God to serve Him and the call has nothing to do with their sexual orientation. I hope that the Vatican does the right thing.
Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money...
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Fr. Mike
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Yesterday the Los Angeles archdiocese released the names of pedophile priests going back to 1930.

Now a bigger question that the leaders need to answer is one doing with conscience and faith. It was ruled within the church that it was ok to be deceitful and lie in order to protect the mother church. This is probably not a well known fact but is well known within canon law.

So the bigger question has to do with "MONEY"-- not "do what is right".

What did our Savior have to say about money?

Before these discussion are through--I will probably be excommunicated myself.
A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ

Don't forget to say your prayers!
The unborn have rights too.
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
It was ruled within the church that it was ok to be deceitful and lie in order to protect the mother church.


"Avoid scandalizing the laity"....that was the reasoning behind it. Ooops, the secret is out and so the scandal is much bigger now. But I'm angry with both sides on this issue. I can't imagine taking pay off money to be silent if my child was molested by anyone, much less a priest. Where are the outcries against such parents?

Quote:
 
Before these discussion are through--I will probably be excommunicated myself.

I don't believe righteous anger/disgust is grounds for excommunication. Your bishop might think otherwise, but the catholic world and world at large needs to hear the good priests express their moral outrage, from the pulpit and from the media.
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Jelly Bean
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cmoehle
Oct 12 2005, 04:20 AM
Sounds like "the WORD of God" says nothing about celebacy. Nor does it say anything about homosexuality.

Is that what you believe chris? That "the Word of God" sounds like it doesn't speak about homosexuality or celibacy? You have read the Bible, or I thought you had told me that once.
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