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Exploring Columbus
Topic Started: Oct 10 2005, 03:51 PM (265 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Exploring Columbus
Quote:
 
"Dad, why does America celebrate Columbus Day?"

"Well, Billy, in 1492, Christopher Columbus sailed from Europe to America and founded the very first settlement in the New World. His arrival marks the beginning of America as we know it."

"But didn't he discover America by accident, dad?"

"Columbus believed the Earth was a sphere. He thought he could reach the Far East by setting off on a westward course. Though he stumbled upon what is now the Bahamas by accident, he was still a great explorer and a great man, Billy."

"A great man, dad, or a racist oppressor?"

"Pardon me, son?"

"When Columbus came to America, he brought with him the greed of the white European males who subsequently colonized America for the dough. They fought and killed the Indigenous Peoples who were already here and took their land and their gold. Columbus eventually died a very rich man."

"Well, Billy, an unfortunate part of human history involves countries invading their neighbors to take control. This has happened in many parts of the world, including Europe, which has a long history of war. But remember that Indigenous Peoples were also prone to war and fighting to expand their control well before Europeans arrived."

"Well, Columbus is also responsible for many germs and diseases that Europeans brought to America, causing untold suffering and death among the people who were here before us."

"Have you been drinking too much caffeine lately, Billy?"

"America's history of environmental destruction can also be laid at Columbus' feet, dad. As soon as the Europeans colonized America's pristine lands, they cut down the trees and plowed up the fields. Can you say soil erosion, dad?"

"Son, did I ever tell you that you take after your mother's side?"

"And what about slavery? It was the Europeans who created a flourishing slave trade in America. They did it to develop the land cheaply, so they could make giant profits. Columbus even made slaves out of some of the Indigenous Peoples who attacked him and his men."

"Son, do you remember where your mother hid the bourbon?"

"I'll tell you another thing, dad. The only reason we even celebrate Columbus Day is because he was Italian, and the day is also a celebration of Italian heritage. When FDR made Columbus Day official in 1934, he did it not just because Columbus discovered the New World, but because Italian immigrants in America represented millions of votes."

"Look, Billy, there are a lot of ways to look at what Christopher Columbus symbolizes. You can focus on the negative attributes, and there are some, or you can do what America has been doing for many years now: focus on the positive."

"Positive, dad?"

"Sure, Billy. Columbus represents the spirit of exploration, the spirit of pushing forward into the great unknown to find greater and better things. This has always been the spirit of America, the land of innovation and new ideas."

"What kind of ideas, dad?"

"How about the ideas of freedom and self-government, Billy? After Columbus opened a gateway to the New World, other European countries established colonies here, too. Eventually, some amazing historical figures would evolve in North America. They would create and fight for a way of life that has proved to be extremely successful - their ideas are still spreading and changing the world for the better."

"Really, dad?"

"Yes, son. The concept of freedom has taken root so solidly in America that people are free to criticize or praise anything, including whether or not Christopher Columbus was a hero or an ogre, or whether or not Columbus Day should still be celebrated in America. Now, do you have any other questions about history?"

"Sure, dad. Was Benjamin Franklin really a predatory male chauvinist womanizer?"
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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TexasShadow
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Jane
;) revisionist history

But seriously, I wonder if it is a good thing to focus on the negative side of our heros.
Was it bad to focus on only the good side?

Should every man step back and eye his national history without prejudice?
Maybe mankind should just forget about nationalism/patriotism...or at least become much less fervent about it...often treating it as a religion?
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Good questions. Not real sure. Children need heros. Adults don't need false dreams.

BTW, which of the two, the father or the son, is the revisionist? :o
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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roscoe
Member
Think of the expense He is responsible for.Besides the upkeep of the old boats every year there's no mail, children are not learning due to ANOTHER paid holiday. State and county workers etc. have a day with pay off.

He has cost the USA a fortune. Then there are all the parades, women having ANOTHER excuse ( as if they need one ) to squander money.Costs a fortune.
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tomdrobin
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Sounds like Billy has been brainwashed by a liberal educator. What they forgot to tell him was that without explorers, conquerers and the like he wouldn't be here today. Probably would be a resident of the slums of Europe. Because Europe never prospered, but languished in it's civility and lack exploration and conquest. If you could change things in the past, to make them fit your ideals of humanism, it would set off a chain reaction, the results of which you might not find desirable.
It is all about struggle and survival of the fittest (or is that fattest?). Anyway that is the way nature (which includes us), works. No matter how enlightened and civilized we imagine ourselves to be.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
"brainwashed"

With facts? So revise reality to suit some liberal romantic vision?

"survival of the fittest"

Herbert Spencer's attempt to elaborate what some think a conservative idea of might is right by appling evolutionary theory to society has been discredited. Largely because man is not a passive being but an active agent, a designer, so to speak, who changes his world, for good or for evil, but changes it nonetheless.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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5thwheeler
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Get the message?
Lets not forget King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella were firm believers in religious and ethnic cleansing. Good old Chris fit right in with they're agenda.

When we were kids learning American History, the possibility that America could have done anything wrong or unjust was never mentioned. We were indoctrinated into believing America was always right, its leaders always honest, and that God was always on our side. I'd say Little Billy finally found a teacher that tells it like it is.
History 101: When a popular myth is believed to be factual, teach the myth.

Its not possible to underestimate the intelligence of the voting populous.

Hummm, after seeing the results of the 06 election, I may have to modify my perception of the voting populous and refer to them as "Late Bloomers".

:ohmy:
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MrsS
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Hessia/Germany
tomdrobin
Oct 10 2005, 10:09 PM
...Probably would be a resident of the slums of Europe. Because Europe never prospered, but languished in it's civility...

without words................:fryingpan:





:beer: :D


Anneliese
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bikemanb
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Liberal Conservative
Regardless of what good and bad old Chris did, people have to learn that you can't fix the mistakes of history but rather learn from them to avoid the same mistakes in the future.

Every time we try to fix history we tend to muck things up even worse.
Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.

Benjamin Franklin
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida

Half empty or half full. The liberal left always espouses the half empty. They find fault with everything until the gored ox is theirs.
Does Columbus know or care what others do the pristine land. Of course not. What would or should we do with the pristine land. Dedicate it to agrarian activities. If they did they would decry the tilling of the soil leading to soil erosion. Would they do nothing with it, and deprive mankind with the bounty stored therein?

See there's always a problem with a liberal. They want their cake and they want to eat it too.

Do we negate the fine work of Ben Franklin because he was a womanizer or Jefferson because of his Sally? Liberals bring these things up routinely, but they conveniently
forget about Clinton. It doesn't matter they say. A man's morality doesn't count until they can use it to denigrate, a positive historic image, or a political enemy
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Frank, are you saying the so-called "conservative right" lives in fantasy land?

The whole lib v con argument is bullshit. We're headed down the road to serfdom while you focus our attention on such phoney wedge issues?

You going to argue that while our Republican President and Congress practices socialism?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida

These IMO, ie.denigation of those who have contributed to the establishment of our country issues are important to discuss.

I don't agree that they should not be defended. Wedge issue ? I don't see it that way.
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Important for people to discuss as social issues but a distraction used to divert attention from greater political issues: i.e., the slow but sure move in the nation from the individualism the nation was founded on to the collectivism of big, federalized, centralized government.

"The important point is that, if we take the people who's views influence developments, they are now in this country in some measure all socialists. It is no longer fashionable to emphasize that "we are all socialists now", this is so merely because the fact is too obvious. Scarcely anybody doubts that we must continue to move towards socialism."
--Hayek, Road to Serfdom
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida
Chris,
I think I understand your point of view, however I think it may be very idealistic to
achieve what I believe you would like to see. I may be wrong but I see the headlong rush to socialism spearheaded by the liberal left who are in control of the dems., With few exceptions, politicians are politicians with little or no purpose except to stay in power.
In order for those people who wish to move the country and therefore the politicians to the left (meaning socialism) they must discredit what has made this country what is is.

By this I mean the country's success in being capitalistic, must be undermined. Therefore those figures seen as the founders must be shown to have been less than
sterling. But the battle for the socialization is waged on many fronts. IMO not only is history rewritten to denigrate the founders, as well as others the left see as impediments to moving the government in their direction. Since politicians are merely pawns in the battle, IMO we must do what ever we can to reward them when they move the government to the right (conservative) side. They will not always do the same thing. I try not to be confused by a single thing they will or will not do. Still, until the conservatives establish a way, a means, of moving government away from socialism by punishing those who stray, the mass of the population, moved by things like the progressive income tax, will be manipulated to keep the status quo, or move toward the left by even greater "give aways".

The Libertarians are wrong in how they go about things. They are wrong when they establish "platforms" and take stands on things like drugs, and the "war on terror".
What they should be doing is taking the rep. party and making it their own, because it is easier to move from the left and center and bringing it to the right by running candidates in local elections against left leaning republicans and thus denying them power until they move to the right.

The dems have won election after election by the margin of the black vote. If the conservative right denied the rep. their 10% we would have a conserative republican party is short order.

Rather long post for me. I think I over did it.
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
My first complaint, what I react to, is attaching labels liberal and conservative to the things you do.

Those who see the glass half empty are better called pessimists, half full, optimists. We do have words in the laguage for those things, and liberal and conservative aren't them.

Those who prefer to hear only the good or the bad about the founders are better called idealists and revisionists, and those who accept both in seeing the full human richness of the founders are better called realists. Liberal, conservative are not about that.

Those who politick and promote the Republican Party are better called Republicans, those the Democratic Party, Democrats. From the look of things right now with big government Reps running the show it should be obvious liberal and conservative is something else.

Now drifting off to more important matters...Ever read Hayek? In my reading of him, he wouldn't view what the Republicans are doing in ther law-making and spending and federalizing and pandering and porking and maintaining their power as a reaction against socialism but as just as much new-liberal socialists themselves taking the next logical step toward collectivism, statism, totalitarism. And call for old-liberal/conservatives to stand up against it and return us to the economic, personal and political--free market, free thought, free people--individualism that indeed did make this nation great.


You may be right about Libertarians. I side with them not so much for their positions--e.g., they would withdraw from Iraq--but for their clearly stated principles and stances consistent with those principles, old-liberal, conservative principles.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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