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Taxes!
Topic Started: Oct 8 2005, 08:43 AM (793 Views)
Colo_Crawdad
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Lowell
Chris,

Please see my edit concerning making the tax "progressive."
"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida
Chrissy called my attention to the comment that she would have nothing to do with the fair tax.
Corky,

I have to admit that Chrissy relies on my judgment when it comes to taxes, however I think that the average woman is smart enough to easily grasp the concept of either paying up front or paying after deciding whether she wants to purchase an item. IMO this is the forte of the American woman. She spends money on what SHE wants, and it doesn't take long to figure out if you get your $$ before taxes you can buy more of what
you want.

The fair tax may be a hard sell, but it is the ONLY tax that is being proposed by the grass roots of the country. We may have to hold the noses of the the politicians, and force the castor oil down their throats, and it may not be now, but it will be. They want to keep the income tax, whether progressive or flat, so they can manipulate the electorate with sweetheart tax incentives. Nothing can kill and idea whose time has come, and people are realizing, they are paying the sales tax now in addition to the income tax in hidden charges!

Please read the book, and break free of strangulation of the 16th Amendment.
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Colo_Crawdad
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Lowell
cmoehle
Oct 9 2005, 11:18 AM
Neither his earlier ""Any consumption tax makes the government a partner in every business transaction" nor your opposite "It clearly states that buisneses do not pay taxes on purchases from other businesses." is what the Fair Tax quote says.

It says "Business-to-business purchases for the production of goods and services are not taxed."

If I understand you correctly, that means that if the government decides the purchase by a business is for "the production of goods or services," then it is not taxed. That, it seems to me, makes the government a business partner, a partner who makes many business decisions.
"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US." --- Pogo
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
"I am also concerned that it says clearly that it takes a rebate to make it a progressive tax. Doesn't identifying rebates effectively involve the government in the decisions?"

How it works is stated in the proposal, upon ratification it is automatic. The government does not then pick a choose or otherwise regulate it.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Colo_Crawdad
Oct 9 2005, 12:26 PM
cmoehle
Oct 9 2005, 11:18 AM
Neither his earlier ""Any consumption tax makes the government a partner in every business transaction" nor your opposite "It clearly states that buisneses do not pay taxes on purchases from other businesses." is what the Fair Tax quote says.

It says "Business-to-business purchases for the production of goods and services are not taxed."

If I understand you correctly, that means that if the government decides the purchase by a business is for "the production of goods or services," then it is not taxed. That, it seems to me, makes the government a business partner, a partner who makes many business decisions.

No, you're changing the meaning again. The government does not decide, just enforces the simple rule. The problem you are raising is one that exists with the current income tax, as evidenced by a 9,400 page tax code, 4,000 pages of IRS forms (source).
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Frank "I have to admit that Chrissy relies on my judgment when it comes to taxes, however I think that the average woman is smart enough to easily grasp the concept of either paying up front or paying after deciding whether she wants to purchase an item. IMO this is the forte of the American woman. She spends money on what SHE wants, and it doesn't take long to figure out if you get your $$ before taxes you can buy more of what
you want."

Thanks for relaying that. Why is it men seem to have more trouble than women understanding the power of consumerism (another name for free market, capitalism)?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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corky52
Member
Chris,
Above and beyond all else, the rich can reduce their consumption, while the poor and middle class have very little they can cut in terms of consumer spending. The rich quit spending and what happens to the jobs that spending supported, where does the money to make up for for the reduced tax income come from?

Encouraging frugality in the rich is something that may have many unintended consequences, most of them bad.
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida

I find it amazing that people read so much into something that is not there
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida
Corky,

The rich never stop consuming. Why should they because of the fair tax. If anything they will spend more just like everyone else. I like to equate a persons income to a sealed container, with a small amount of vapor. No matter how small or large the amount of vapor (money) it fills the container. The wealthy will continue to enjoy to the limit of their means as well as those not wealthy who will also spend to the limit of their means.

On edit.. The wealthy never stop spending, even though they don't spend directly they invest, or even bank their wealth which is a productive activity for everyone. Only those that bury their money in the back yard would not contribute to a higher standard of living and a revitalization of domestic manufacturing.
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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corky52
Member
Frank,
You want to put in place a system that rewards frugality, rich people don't get rich by not understanding the rewards the system has to offer. Also I would question how many of the rich you really know, as I recall old man Walton drove the same truck for years. The proposal offers much greater control of the tax they pay to the rich than it does to the rest of the citizens. You're giving people a reason NOT to spend money, problem is the rich have way more of it they can NOT spend.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Corky "You want to put in place a system that rewards frugality"

Where'd you see that stated as a component of the Fair Tax proposal?

Again, all this is covered in the FT FAQ:
Quote:
 
How will the plan affect economic growth? With the penalty for working harder and producing more removed, Americans are free to keep every dollar they earn, and a new era of economic growth and job creation is unleashed. Hidden taxes are history, Americans are able to save more, and businesses invest more. Capital formation, the real source of job creation and innovation, is facilitated. Gross domestic product (GDP) increases by an estimated 10.5 percent in the first year alone. The FairTax as proposed raises the economy’s capital stock by 42 percent, its labor supply by four percent, its output by 12 percent, and its real wage rate by eight percent.

As U.S. companies and individuals repatriate, on a tax-free basis, income generated overseas, huge amounts of new capital flood into the United States. With such a huge capital supply, real interest rates remain low. Additionally, other international investors will seek to invest here to avoid taxes on income in their own countries, thereby further spurring the growth of our own economy.


No substitute for actually reading The Fair Tax book.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida

One can read into the minds of people in this case "the wealthy". I once again submit that everyone disposes of all his income one way or another unless he buries it in the yard.

A wealthy "frugal" person must do something with his money. He invests it which creats jobs, industries new products etc. He banks it providing loan money for home owners.\, businesses. This all contributes to the GDP in some way. Whether rich or poor either you spend it or invest it or bury it. I know but one person in my life who actually buried it.
( and for the record he wasn't wealthy)

" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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bikemanb
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Liberal Conservative
Guys, great advocacy position but let me see.

I have all the computers, cars & MH's I want for the forseeable future, so as I am approaching retirement, I could in theory make my current six figure income till I retire if I elect to keep working or don't get downsized and pay no taxes because food, utilities, medicine and clothing are going to be my only wants.

Yet I continue to consume services....doesn't seem fair to me but I like the idea.
Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.

Benjamin Franklin
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida

I would like to address the "regressive / progressive" aspect of the fair tax.

Colo., embraces the idea that the sales tax is regressive, however it is not as applied in the Fair Tax for 2 reasons;


1.
We are eliminating taxes that are embedded in the final price of goods. We are already paying the "sales tax" (about 23%) when we buy a product because the taxes paid by corporations for their employees, income and cost of complying with the 7,000 page tax code are passed on to the consumer as a cost of doing business.
2.
Taxes paid at the retail level for essencials will be rebated.

SO as you see the less wealthy are not burdened with new taxes they are liberated from old (payroll withholding etc.) Prices including the sales tax will remain essentially the same.
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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MDPD6320
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Frank - Gainesville, Florida

Bikemanb,

We all know you will want a new car, MH, house, when you can pull $$ out of your 401, stocks, etc. tax free to buy them at current prices including the tax. And if you choose not to and leave it (tax free) for your kids, grandkids, or other relatives, I'm sure they will find a good use for it!! :floorrollin:
" The government big enough to give you everything you want it is big enough to take everything you have."

"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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