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They Got Us Runnin Scared
Topic Started: Oct 7 2005, 02:52 PM (768 Views)
Banandangees
Member
cmoehle
Oct 8 2005, 10:09 PM
"I'd rather have our fears."

Than our liberties?

I probably didn't explain myself well. What I meant to say was "I'd rather have the fears" that come with our liberties and freedoms than live with the fears of no or few liberties such as the people in Hitler's Germany, Saddam's Iraq or Stalin's USSR had. That a nation with open liberties and freedoms more easily allow those that mean us harm to walk among us...the fear of not knowing who they are, or when they might strike and not being able to contain them without probable cause which in many cases, may be too late in the future for many innocents.

I rather live with that fear from outside coming in (that our liberties leave open) than have to live with fear from those from within (our own government) because we have no liberties.
Banan
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brewster
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Feddoc:
Quote:
 
Hmmmmm, 22,000 gun laws in the US...tell us, with all your wisdom, which ones should we review?

BTW, which of OUR laws 'madate' the highest rate of gun deaths? I wasn't aware that laws mandate a death rate. Things must have changed since I studied law.


I don't know which need reviewing, Feddoc, you're the one claiming that your "Militia" is regulated by your laws. Since your laws are regulating the "Militia", and the US has the highest gun murder rate in the world, presumably from that militia, somewhere in there the laws must mandate it, or else it isn't regulated as well as you think.

Your argument, not mine.

As for the death rate in Switzerland, etc., and reasons, already discussed in the conversation with Corky.

Quote:
 
BTW, since our violent crime rate has stayed at a 30 year low, yet we are making more guns.......why isn't the crime rate with firearms going up?


Actually the argument I hear constantly from Pro-Gun groups in the US is that guns make everyone safer. Your question should be "Why isn't the crime rate with firearms going down?"
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feddoc
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brewster
Oct 9 2005, 04:05 AM
Feddoc:
Quote:
 
Hmmmmm, 22,000 gun laws in the US...tell us, with all your wisdom, which ones should we review?

BTW, which of OUR laws 'madate' the highest rate of gun deaths? I wasn't aware that laws mandate a death rate. Things must have changed since I studied law.


I don't know which need reviewing, Feddoc, you're the one claiming that your "Militia" is regulated by your laws. Since your laws are regulating the "Militia", and the US has the highest gun murder rate in the world, presumably from that militia, somewhere in there the laws must mandate it, or else it isn't regulated as well as you think.

Your argument, not mine.

As for the death rate in Switzerland, etc., and reasons, already discussed in the conversation with Corky.

Quote:
 
BTW, since our violent crime rate has stayed at a 30 year low, yet we are making more guns.......why isn't the crime rate with firearms going up?


Actually the argument I hear constantly from Pro-Gun groups in the US is that guns make everyone safer. Your question should be "Why isn't the crime rate with firearms going down?"

I don't know which need reviewing, Feddoc, you're the one claiming that your "Militia" is regulated by your laws. Since your laws are regulating the "Militia", and the US has the highest gun murder rate in the world, presumably from that militia, somewhere in there the laws must mandate it, or else it isn't regulated as well as you think.

Claim...it is fact. Which part of 22,000 laws did you not understand??

Perhaps you have a different definition of mandate. From Merriam Webster: 1 : an authoritative command; especially : a formal order from a superior court or official to an inferior one

Tell me again how a law(s) mandates a high murder rate.

Your argument, not mine.
Nope, you posted mandate, not me.

Actually the argument I hear constantly from Pro-Gun groups in the US is that guns make everyone safer. Your question should be "Why isn't the crime rate with firearms going down?"

My answer is: It is going down.
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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
feddoc
Oct 8 2005, 08:41 PM
pentax
Oct 9 2005, 02:23 AM
Banandangees
Oct 8 2005, 02:54 PM

Without personal weapons, governments can more easily take control of populations.

feddoc - ............



SO, tell me why my wife and I don't have to go to mandatory "Party Re-Education Meetings", once a week? :dunno:

I have no idea what direction you are leading with that question. A bit of detail if you please.

Oh let's not play Silly Gooses - My country regulates guns, especially hand-guns - so why are we not a Dictatorial State, as you earlier post implied is so easy?
What? - If the Military takes over America, you're going to go up against Abrams tanks with a Berreta?

I think not.... :cool:
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feddoc
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pentax
Oct 9 2005, 04:19 AM
feddoc
Oct 8 2005, 08:41 PM
pentax
Oct 9 2005, 02:23 AM
Banandangees
Oct 8 2005, 02:54 PM

Without personal weapons, governments can more easily take control of populations.

feddoc - ............



SO, tell me why my wife and I don't have to go to mandatory "Party Re-Education Meetings", once a week? :dunno:

I have no idea what direction you are leading with that question. A bit of detail if you please.

Oh let's not play Silly Gooses - My country regulates guns, especially hand-guns - so why are we not a Dictatorial State, as you earlier post implied is so easy?
What? - If the Military takes over America, you're going to go up against Abrams tanks with a Berreta?

I think not.... :cool:

Well, at least I now know where you were leading with your question. I wasn't playing 'sill gooses'...whatever that means. I asked you a sincere question and expected same in return.


XXXX My country regulates guns, especially hand-guns - so why are we not a Dictatorial State, as you earlier post implied is so easy?XXXX

I don't know why.....where did I imply it was so easy?


XXXXIf the Military takes over America, you're going to go up against Abrams tanks with a Berreta?XXXX

I have never said that nor implied in any of my posts. I think that is a huge stretch of imagination. Why would you bother to ask a question, then answer it yourself?
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brewster
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Quote:
 
Tell me again how a law(s) mandates a high murder rate.


Feddoc, I repeat. You are the one claiming that somehow your laws are regulating your "Militia". I don't know how. Since I cannot argue, I'm forced to agree.

But then I'm immediately struck by the number of murders. Since you have repeatedly told me it's all under the control of those laws, somewhere in those 22,000 laws is the mandate to kill. I don't know how a law mandates a high murder rate, but that's what you're telling me.

Quote:
 
Actually the argument I hear constantly from Pro-Gun groups in the US is that guns make everyone safer. Your question should be "Why isn't the crime rate with firearms going down?"

My answer is: It is going down.


That's not what the statistics that I've seen show. In fact, it shows an alarming trend in that murder and crime in general is going down, while gun deaths aren't, indicating to me that guns are involved in a higher and higher percentage of crimes.

A Quote from the FBI:
Quote:
 
the FBI says assailants used firearms in seven out of every 10 murders last year, an increase from the year before.

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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
feddoc
Oct 8 2005, 08:00 PM
brewster
Oct 9 2005, 12:59 AM
And Feddoc, Citizens come in many flavours.

Repeating the mantra that an armed citizenry is always a GOOD THING does NOT make it true.

Especially when all recent evidence is against it.

Once again, provide your evidence. Show me the statistcal proof, not what you believe.

In 2002, there were 30,242 gun deaths in the U.S:

17,108 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
11,829 homicides (39% of all U.S gun deaths),
762 unintentional shootings (3% of all U.S gun deaths),
and 300 from legal intervention and 243 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm




Now Canada, with about 10% of Americas population, should come in at something like 3000.
In fact, it was 816 people — 767 males and 49 females — died of firearms-related injuries in Canada in 2002, the most recent year examined in the study.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...aths050628.html

"Statistical" enough for you?



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feddoc
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brewster
Oct 9 2005, 04:25 AM
Quote:
 
Tell me again how a law(s) mandates a high murder rate.


Feddoc, I repeat. You are the one claiming that somehow your laws are regulating your "Militia". I don't know how. Since I cannot argue, I'm forced to agree.

But then I'm immediately struck by the number of murders. Since you have repeatedly told me it's all under the control of those laws, somewhere in those 22,000 laws is the mandate to kill. I don't know how a law mandates a high murder rate, but that's what you're telling me.

Quote:
 
Actually the argument I hear constantly from Pro-Gun groups in the US is that guns make everyone safer. Your question should be "Why isn't the crime rate with firearms going down?"

My answer is: It is going down.


That's not what the statistics that I've seen show. In fact, it shows an alarming trend in that murder and crime in general is going down, while gun deaths aren't, indicating to me that guns are involved in a higher and higher percentage of crimes.

A Quote from the FBI:
Quote:
 
the FBI says assailants used firearms in seven out of every 10 murders last year, an increase from the year before.

XXXX I don't know how a law mandates a high murder rate, but that's what you're telling me.XXXX

No, you are telling me.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/25/crime.rate.ap/index.html


--In 2004, just under one-quarter of all violent crimes were committed by an offender armed with a gun, knife or other weapon.

First you say this: indicating to me that guns are involved in a higher and higher percentage of crimes.

Then you point to murder rates. Why the change in tactics? Stay on subject, please......no doubt murder is a crime; but, my data was for overall crime with a gun.



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feddoc
Member
pentax
Oct 9 2005, 04:30 AM
feddoc
Oct 8 2005, 08:00 PM
brewster
Oct 9 2005, 12:59 AM
And Feddoc, Citizens come in many flavours.

Repeating the mantra that an armed citizenry is always a GOOD THING does NOT make it true.

Especially when all recent evidence is against it.

Once again, provide your evidence. Show me the statistcal proof, not what you believe.

In 2002, there were 30,242 gun deaths in the U.S:

17,108 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
11,829 homicides (39% of all U.S gun deaths),
762 unintentional shootings (3% of all U.S gun deaths),
and 300 from legal intervention and 243 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm




Now Canada, with about 10% of Americas population, should come in at something like 3000.
In fact, it was 816 people — 767 males and 49 females — died of firearms-related injuries in Canada in 2002, the most recent year examined in the study.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...aths050628.html

"Statistical" enough for you?

brewster/pentax...whatever.


You neglect, once again, a few things....

Suicides...folks will find other ways....
1995: Total suicide deaths in 1995: 31,284. Suicides involving firearms: 18,503
(Source: National Safety Council's 1998 Accident Facts)


11,829 homicides (39% of all U.S gun deaths),

Although exact figures are not known, firearm ownership increased since 1994 by as much as 2.5 million per year, while, as shown above, the murder rate decreased during that period. This conclusively shows firearms do not lead to higher murder rates. (Source: May 25, 1998, edition of U.S. News & World Report)


And you both, since you seem to answer for Brewster, seem to neglect the lives saved by firearms....yea, I have posted data on that before, but, you seem to brush it off as coming from a pro firearms site....even though the criminolgist who did the research does not own a gun.


"Statistical" enough for you?
No, try harder.

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corky52
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What does the possession of guns have to do with the fear the terrorists are causing in our population? Guns aren't going to stop the terror or the terrorists! Simple fact is that not much that we're willing to do is going to stop the terrorists.
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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
Banandangees
Oct 8 2005, 08:43 PM
I rather live with that fear from outside coming in (that our liberties leave open) than have to live with fear from those from within (our own government) because we have no liberties.

Banan - then tell me how you feel about the Patriot Act - which allows the clandestine search of you home when you are absent (and you will never know about it), investigation into your financial, health, telecommunications and other records (same again), if someone has a "reason", you can be arrested in your pyjamas in the middle of the night and held in an undisclosed place for an indeterminate time, with no legal advice and never being told WHY?

:faint:
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pentax
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feddoc
Oct 8 2005, 09:39 PM

"Statistical" enough for you?
No, try harder.

Obviously, your mind is made up, and you resent anyone trying to confuse you with the facts....
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feddoc
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pentax
Oct 9 2005, 04:45 AM
feddoc
Oct 8 2005, 09:39 PM

"Statistical" enough for you?
No, try harder.

Obviously, your mind is made up, and you resent anyone trying to confuse you with the facts....

Obviously you cannot prove me wrong. Other numbers tell a different story...perhaps a bit more detail than you would like. Tell me where my counter to your numbers was wrong.

You assume too much and your 'trying to confuse you with facts' statement only serves to point that out.
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pentax
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Kamloops - BC Interior
Your increasing ferocity is backing ME up - you wanted stats, I gave you stats - you swept them off the table without a moments thought - Q.E.D.
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feddoc
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Pentax,

I posted this in response to your question.



SO, tell me why my wife and I don't have to go to mandatory "Party Re-Education Meetings", once a week?


I have no idea what direction you are leading with that question. A bit of detail if you please.


Why would you then post such a sarcastic remark as this?

Oh let's not play Silly Gooses - My country regulates guns, especially hand-guns - so why are we not a Dictatorial State, as you earlier post implied is so easy?
What? - If the Military takes over America, you're going to go up against Abrams tanks with a Berreta?

I think not....
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