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Assisted Suicide
Topic Started: Oct 4 2005, 08:34 PM (528 Views)
Fr. Mike
Member
The Supreme Court will be hearing a case that challenges the Oregon assisted Suicide law. I watched a lady with terminal cancer at a press conference on C-SPAN. I was moved by the ladies plight. She wishes to die with her family present and as she say's "not unconscious and in diapers" In other words on her terms and with what she perceives as with dignity and control.

I have my own beliefs that would counsel against suidide--whether assisted or not.

As far as assisting a person to take their own lives I don't think that should ever be legal. I have read some legal briefs that addressed physician assisted suicides and how the practice evolved in Nazi Germany. I suggest those interested to Google this subject and read for yourself the briefs. It is clear that we educate, and license physicians to help preserve life--not assist in its destruction.

We also have educated and licensed Pharmacists who are charged with providing legal drugs designed to cure, help heal, and affect pain management among other duties.

Society never intended for Doctors and Pharmacists to help people kill themselves. They are trained to counsel and if necessary refer desperate people to seek professional and clerical help for their mental anquish when it is apparent somebody wants to commit suicide.

With laws like the one in Oregon State, it leaves these professionals in a quandry. Some physicians will prescribe the drugs and some Pharmacists will fill the prescriptions, but even this arms length approach designed to shield them from actual participation is wrong in my opinion.

When society and its professionals begin participting in the art of death, it opens a crack that will only expand over time. Anybody that has followed the Dutch assisted program can read in detail how they have moved from serving conscious adults with terminal conditions--to babies who are not capable of making their own choice. This will happen here too.

People who wish to step off the cliff of no return have always existed. Society has always tried to prevent them. But society should never become a partner in taking anothers life even if they request. This is a matter of free will and an individual should not expect others to join in their willful life ending process. Life has a process it goes through from birth to death. We will all die and most will be in some pain prior to its conclussion.

The lady I saw today was perfectly capable of moving around, thinking , reasoning, and going about her own business. If she wants to kill herself she can figure that out on her own without the need of me or you becoming part of the process.

I'm sure some here have an opinion on this case. Do you think the state should be involved in assisted suicide?
A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ

Don't forget to say your prayers!
The unborn have rights too.
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corky52
Member
You object to someone getting the best help available to accomplish their personal goals? You'd maybe rather the lady got street information that wasn't good and botched the attempt and suffered more for it? Death is inevitable, the choice of the time is a basic freedom we all have, OR is just recognizing the truth and allowing it to be handled in a humane manner. All the laws in the world won't stop people from ending their lives, just make it more painful and ugly.
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DylansMom
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Jackie-Sioux Falls, SD (in Arizona for the moment)
I think the states and government should mind their own businesses.

I wholeheartedly believe that assisted suicide should be an option to those who are terminal.

If one has a dog that is suffering and DON'T have it put down, then they are being cruel and can face charges for it.

Why is it we can't offer our loved ones the same courtesy???

It should be between the Doctors and the people involved. It is no one else's business.
Greg, Dylan & Jasper too!
2005 F350 King Ranch PSD Crew Cab 4x4 Dually; 2005 Carriage Carri-lite KIQ View My Pictures Here

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brewster
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Winemaker Extraordinaire
This will come as a surprise to some who have heard my vehement opposition to taking another person's life, be it the unborn or the criminal, other than for immediate self defense.

But I believe that if a person's life is simply one long litany of pain and illness, with no hope of improvement, and that person is beyond helping themself, and that person wants out, others should be allowed to help. We are doing them NO FAVOUR in keeping them alive.
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Fr. Mike
Member
The lady I saw in the press conference was articulate, resolute, mobile, and incontrol of all her functions. She has a family that is supportive according to her.

This decision is hers to make and her free will in action. I'm sure she can come up with a painless means of ending her life without making the rest of the citizens a part of the process.

Maybe the law gives her comfort from guilt and helps in someway justify her actions and make it easier to do? I don't know.

If she want to go---then go--just don't involve me or the rest of the community.

this should be a personal enterprise.
A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ

Don't forget to say your prayers!
The unborn have rights too.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
I always like to begin with the facts, not someone's framing of them. For that I turn to Oregon: FAQs about Physician-Assisted Suicide. The first FAQ reads:
Quote:
 
There is no state "program" for Death with Dignity/physician-assisted suicide. People interested in participating do not "make application" to the State of Oregon or the Department of Human Services. It is up to qualified patients and licensed physicians to implement the Act on an individual basis.

So "Do you think the state should be involved in assisted suicide?" is answered by the state, no, it is a matter of individual choice. Individual choice is, I suppose, a quandary.

The second FAQ reads:
Quote:
 
Q: Who can request physician-assisted suicide?

A: The law states that, in order to participate, a patient must be: 1) 18 years of age or older, 2) a resident of Oregon, 3) capable of making and communicating health care decisions for him/herself, and 4) diagnosed with a terminal illness that will lead to death within six (6) months. It is up to the attending physician to determine whether these criteria have been met.

So the priviledge granted by the state is severely limited. The slippery slope of Nazi Germany and misunderstood Dutch program are not applicable.

(The Dutch follow the Groningen protocol.)


I think it is wise to counsel against it. I think the state must severely regulate it, along lines of the Harm Principle. But in the end, it should be an individual's free (will) choice.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Fr. Mike
Member
It already is a free will choice to end ones life. In reality one does not need the priviledge of the state involved in this decision. Where does the state have recourse once somebody murders themself?

quote:

"So the priviledge granted by the state is severely limited. The slippery slope of Nazi Germany and misunderstood Dutch program are not applicable."

I rspectively disagree. Once the state says yea to assisted suicide, the next request will be to end the suffering of other lives that are determined through some formula to be justifiably ended.

Suicide is a personal decision best left to the individual without involving the rest of society.

A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ

Don't forget to say your prayers!
The unborn have rights too.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
The state already determined suicide is illegal and passed laws against it. It has already intruded on what is "a personal decision best left to the individual", provided it does not affect society--a husband doing himself in might leave his wife and kids in dire straits. That seems to me the moral line. What the laws does is restrict state intrusion where suicide does not have real consequences--it will always have emotional ones. The law is not intrusive.

Mike, your argument is based on the logical fallacy known as slippery slope. It does not logicaly follow that allowing assisted suicide will causally lead to euthenasia.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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DocInBird
Member
How can the same White House be pro-states rights and anti-states rights at the same time? If I decide that I want to end my life with dignity, there are numerous places where I can buy the drugs on the street. This would be so easy. But, if I want to go through a doctor and use medications that are approved and controlled, the White House is gonna do a Terri Shiavo on me?

Why cannot an administration that purports itself to support the "right to life" also support the right to die with dignity? What right is this government asserting thats says I would have to have artificially prolonged "life" in a vegative state. Where are the tests? Where are the clearly defined tests to determine whether I am alive or not. PET scans would be a first step. We know what parts of the brain are involved with certain functions. What are the results?

When I choose to die is my business and mine alone. It really comes down to a matter of insurance. Do these major campaign contributers have to pay? Follow the money. What bills to protect them are passed by those that accepted money from them?

Do you remember when we elected persons to represent us, rather that corporate campaign interests? Ahhh, the old days...
--doc
Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America.
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TexasShadow
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Jane
as I see it, killing yourself is just that....KILLING yourself.
and since aiding and abetting a murder is against the law, I don't think the State should make an exception for suicidees.
as Mike says, if you want to leave this life, sobeit.....just do it, but to ask someone else to help you do it is tanatmount to asking him to help you rob a bank or back up your lie or or anything else that's against the law or unethical.
asking someone to participate in your suicide is mostly, in my opinion, an attempt to justify the act or mitigate the guilt....to avoid personal responsibility and involve someone else in your act.

I think maybe one of the main causes of all this wrangling and machination is that you can't get sleeping pills over the counter.....gotta have a doctor prescribe them.

But handing the pills out to anyone is dangerous because there are many suicidees (of all ages) who are just depressed and looking for help....
Do we really want rampant suicide?
Want your child or grandchild to be able to "off" himself over something he perceives as the way out of a mess he's gotten into or because he's depressed over losing his girlfriend or wife or not good enough to make the A team?
Or maybe he's been fired or laid off and can't find another good job?

Anyway, that's the way I see it. :)

Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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passinthru
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John - Gainesville, FL
Quote:
 
Suicide is a personal decision best left to the individual without involving the rest of society.

Abortion is a personal decision best left to the individual without involving the rest of society.
:dunno:
Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money...
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TexasShadow
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Jane
Quote:
 
Abortion is a personal decision best left to the individual without involving the rest of society.


So let the woman do it herself instead of asking someone else to do it for her and/or asking the State to pay for it. There are several concoctions (old time stuff) that work.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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DocInBird
Member
But the problem is doing it right, the first time, without the risk of pain and lifetime disability. If I were to think about such a thing, I would prefer to go peacefully in my sleep, rather than throw myself off a building.

Do I have the right to do this, without the Federal Church intervening? Do I have the right to pass peacefully in my sleep, or must I spend my last days in some prison hospital kept alive artificially while Bill Frist diagnoses me via tv?

--doc
Just Doc and Orson (German Shepherd) wandering around North America.
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campingken
Member
If someone wants to die screaming in long term agony that is his or her choice. On the other hand if the person would rather skip the pain then that should also be their choice. Why in the world does the party of, "personal choice and individual rights" Republicans keep insisting on telling me how to live? God and your religion may tell you suicide is a sin and that's fine, live by those rules but don't try and force your beliefs on me and mine.

Perhaps if I am faced with a lingering painful death without dignity I will chose suicide then again maybe not. If I decide to die by my own hand it will effect no one outside of my family so why should anyone but them have a say in the matter?

Ken
Sequim Wa.
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DylansMom
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Jackie-Sioux Falls, SD (in Arizona for the moment)
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Greg, Dylan & Jasper too!
2005 F350 King Ranch PSD Crew Cab 4x4 Dually; 2005 Carriage Carri-lite KIQ View My Pictures Here

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