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| Catch 22; Our dilemma | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 30 2005, 09:38 AM (340 Views) | |
| cmoehle | Sep 30 2005, 04:33 PM Post #16 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Only way to win is to take the bull by the horns. SO the xpression goes. Corky "The enmity between the Sunni and the Shiite has been going on for how many thousand years?" I question that. Arabs tend to be tribal. Having these two large factions, and the Kurds, speaks of nationalism, as sort of ethnic nationalism, has only been around around a century or so. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| corky52 | Sep 30 2005, 04:40 PM Post #17 |
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Chris, I'd bet you that 99.9% of Iraqi's can tell you tribe and clan they belong to. Problem has been in this part of the world longer than religion, it was just made far worse by western meddling. "Territorial Integrity of Iraq" is a great catch phrase, but dooms us to failure! |
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| cmoehle | Sep 30 2005, 04:45 PM Post #18 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Right. Iraq itself is a Western concept, isn't it? Imposed, more or less. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| 5thwheeler | Sep 30 2005, 04:52 PM Post #19 |
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Get the message?
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"Only way to win is to take the bull by the horns." Taking the Bull by the horns works best if the Bull is dead. I like Corkys approach a whole lot better. LOL! Ethnic Nationalism???? What Bull! Come on Chris, the Sunni's and Shiite's were at each others throats long before there was a nation called Iraq, and I believe it has nothing to do with Nationalism, its "the way I worship the same God is better then the way you worship the same God" thingy. This place is like a Rodeo, what would it be like without its Bull.
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History 101: When a popular myth is believed to be factual, teach the myth. Its not possible to underestimate the intelligence of the voting populous. Hummm, after seeing the results of the 06 election, I may have to modify my perception of the voting populous and refer to them as "Late Bloomers".
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| cmoehle | Sep 30 2005, 05:37 PM Post #20 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Bill, you might like Corky's approach, but history tells us different:
This is a recent phenomenon. I think you project the tendencies of Christians on Islamists. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| cruiser | Oct 1 2005, 07:18 AM Post #21 |
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Bring Saddam Back with his revolutionary guard and he will put a cap on the infighting real quick. For thirty years under Saddam, Iraq was the most advanced country in the middle east except for our litttle buddy Israel. This country needed an iron hand to control the animals. |
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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) | |
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| campingken | Oct 1 2005, 11:25 AM Post #22 |
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Good point Cruiser!! We have grabbed the Tiger by the tail and can't let go. I just saw another story about our dropping military enlistment rate. So with only 500 TRAINED Iarqi troops and a declining US Army this thing will just fizzle out. Bush may want to "STAY THE COURSE" but unless his daughters etc. enlist it won't happen. Perhaps now is the time to LET LOOSE THE CHICKENHAWKS OF WAR!!!! Ken Sequim, Wa |
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| corky52 | Oct 1 2005, 01:13 PM Post #23 |
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"LOOSE THE CHICKENHAWKS OF WAR!!!!" Ken, I think that's already been done and now we're dealing with the chicken doodoo they left. We leave now and the Saud's will be dragging us back inside five years to defend them and their oil against the Iranians, sad but true. |
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| campingken | Oct 1 2005, 02:52 PM Post #24 |
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Corky, I mean that it is time for the CHICKENHAWKS to take off their yellow ribbon magnets pick a rifle and jump INTO THE BREACH.. Unfortunately you are right re:the Saudi's et al. My son recently told me that if we leave Iraq now then Iraqi's will actually be flying the planes into our buildings next time. We have really messed up that country and we must somehow fix it. Ken |
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| bikemanb | Oct 1 2005, 05:05 PM Post #25 |
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Liberal Conservative
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Yes, and just a modicum of research and deviation from political orthodoxy and we could have avoid getting hooked up with this tar-baby. |
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Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
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| 5thwheeler | Oct 1 2005, 05:12 PM Post #26 |
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Get the message?
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Yes, sad but true, I believe the Shiites of Iraq and Iran will unite and try to remove the ruling class in Saudi Arabia. Is the US turning Iraq into a stagging ground for future aggression in the Middle East? If any nation in the middle east fits Bush's criteria for war, it's Iran. Iran is everything we accused Saddam of being, and more, yet Bush and company were hell bent on taking over Iraq. Yeah, Saddam was the kind of man Americans love to hate, and an easy sell to the American people. Now if Bush is a man of his word, then war with Iran is inevitable and may be unavoidable. On another note, will the US intervene in the upcoming Pakistani revolution? |
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History 101: When a popular myth is believed to be factual, teach the myth. Its not possible to underestimate the intelligence of the voting populous. Hummm, after seeing the results of the 06 election, I may have to modify my perception of the voting populous and refer to them as "Late Bloomers".
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| cruiser | Oct 2 2005, 08:49 AM Post #27 |
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I recently read that Israel has informed our government that if we do not stop Iran from developing the atomic bomb they will do it themselves. The only way Israel could do this would be to bomb all of their suspected nuclear sites. Because of our close relationship with Israel, Iran would make things very difficult for us in trying to stabilize Iraq. The shiites in Iran would join with the shiites in Iraq and open up a civil war in Iraq against the sunnis and the kurds. If we bombed the sites for Israel, It would open a tinderbox in the middle east and our oil supplies from these countries would be threatened and we would be forced to take drastic measures such as invading Iran who happens to have a massive well trained army with modern weapons. Maybe I am to much of a pessimist, but this scenario is a distinct possibility. |
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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) | |
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| cmoehle | Oct 2 2005, 08:57 AM Post #28 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Possible, but the Iraqi Shiites and Iranian Shiites are traditional enemies so such a coalition would end in infighting rather quickly, I think. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| corky52 | Oct 2 2005, 09:44 AM Post #29 |
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Chris, Traditional enemies????? I think that requires some support. I would say you are very wrong on that. Rivals in the religious hierarchy might fit but I would strongly question enemies. |
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| cruiser | Oct 2 2005, 09:58 AM Post #30 |
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It does sound as though it will not take much for Iran to intervene in Iraq Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal, here last week, put no gloss on Riyadh's alarm. Iraq is hurtling toward a civil war that may become a regional war, he said, with Iran intervening to aid the Shia, Turkey attacking the Kurds and Sunni Arab nations aiding their dispossessed and embattled Sunni brethren. "All the dynamics are pulling the country apart," said Prince Saud. The White House sees the constitution holding Iraq together until elections are held, but Prince Saud is dismissive: "[E]lections won't do it. A constitution alone won't do it." Though most Americans have lost confidence in Bush as a war president, and believe the war was a mistake and we should start bringing our troops home, no elected leader of national stature is demanding an end to U.S. involvement or a new policy for victory. |
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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662) | |
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