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| Edict From The Pope; No gays allowed in Cath. Seminary | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 27 2005, 09:18 PM (1,909 Views) | |
| roscoe | Sep 30 2005, 08:36 PM Post #121 |
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The nuns used to hit me a lot. Does that count as abuse. |
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| passinthru | Sep 30 2005, 08:58 PM Post #122 |
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John - Gainesville, FL
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The logic that a handful of priests molested boys, therefore all priests that molest boys are gay and all gay priests molest children is non sequitur. It seems the real problem lies near something that fr Mike posted:
If offending priests cannot be removed from their positions when they step over the line in a criminal way without a lot of red tape, the system needs to be changed. To punish everyone in a group because of the actions of a few is wrong. It's like the last few female teachers that had sex with their students, all were blond; does that mean that all blonde teachers should be banned from teaching? This broad brush approach is not sensible. (My wife would say yes Roscoe) |
| Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money... | |
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| roscoe | Sep 30 2005, 09:16 PM Post #123 |
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Passin. I never had a problem with a priest and was in 9 years of Catholic school. Alter boy and choir. Just can't understand all the people that are coming out now after years of secrecy. |
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| PRT | Sep 30 2005, 09:22 PM Post #124 |
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Re John's list: Thank God we didn't corner the market Roscoe - my husband went to school with Christian Brothers and they used rulers but offered fists. He feels the discipline was fair. One of our sils went to a Christian Brothers high school too and it hadn't changed much - didn't bother him either. I never had a problem with the nuns. I never saw a nun or a priest hit anyone. A lot of people still believe corporal punishment in schools is an all right thing. I'm not one of those people. I know it still goes on - in public schools - and is tolerated in certain areas. This is really way off topic - sorry. |
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| roscoe | Sep 30 2005, 10:06 PM Post #125 |
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PRT Iwouldn't really call it abuse. A smack with a ruler on the hands when I got real stupid but mostly warnings. The nuns were great and I received a great education but most of all respect for others. |
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| Fr. Mike | Sep 30 2005, 11:46 PM Post #126 |
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quote: "If offending priests cannot be removed from their positions when they step over the line in a criminal way without a lot of red tape, the system needs to be changed. To punish everyone in a group because of the actions of a few is wrong. It's like the last few female teachers that had sex with their students, all were blond; does that mean that all blonde teachers should be banned from teaching? This broad brush approach is not sensible" I agree that the system needs to be changed. The problem is the number of superiors and bishops who really have the say. From the time a bishop requests an offending priest be investigated--it can take up to four years for a decision to wind its way to a conclussion. In the meantime the priest is often time assigned to administrative duties away from those who are vulnerable to abuse. But many times the priest is counseled during the investigation and re-assigned to parish duty. The fox in the chicken coup. Local authorities often defer taking action because the diocese or religious has informed them that action is under way. Bishops and superiors are the keys to this reform. The Mother church allows Bishops nearly 100% autonomy when it come to their local diocese. Even more so with religious superiors. What is needed is a reform from the grass roots and that is what is going on right now. What is the bottom line here? It is teaching the faithful, administering the sacraments, being shephards---not molesting children. As much as John Paul 11 was loved and admired--he is the root problem here by not reeling in Bishops and insisting on celebacy within seminaries and among the priests. The priesthood is not supposed to be a private sex club for wayward priests. Yet many seminaries and diocese were just that. Homosexual priests were not the cause of this pending action. [and by the way the paper has been printed and is out being circulated because I saw a draft copy] Those diocese that were overrun with non-celebate priests in fact attracted pediphile priests. One followed the other. Those are the diocese having all the legal problems. Same goes for seminaries. Certain seminaries attracted pediphiles. The same ones where non-celebate priests were allowed to live as such. Who is behind all of this and the reason for this topic--BISHOPS. Bottom line is that seminaries are being cleaned up, diocese are going bankrupt and forced into reform, preists who are celebat are fed up and have left the priesthood. And now everyone is afraid and wanting Rme to back off. I say clean out the evil and let the sun shine into the corners with a fresh breath of spirituality. I'm personally ashamed for my church and fed up. The new Pope is taking action on fronts that have need taken before Vactican11. I say bravo. Yes-some fine men who are homosexual will be denied entry into seminaries. Sorry for straying off topic. And one final note. Those here who suggest all priests be casterated need to address their own flaws before suggesting it to another. I bet their are some real skeletons for sure. |
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A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ Don't forget to say your prayers! The unborn have rights too. | |
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| corky52 | Oct 1 2005, 12:02 AM Post #127 |
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SB, Maybe if they didn't break vows, cover for those who do, and tolerate evil they know to exist in their midst, I would not think so harshly of them. Bottom line to your post is that evil was know to exist and tolerated, some by walking away and some by active encouragement. The very fact you offer such a detailed excuse for what happened means that the problem was not unknown to you before it came to light of day. Makes one wonder what still waits to come in to the light of day? How many times have your vows allowed children to be hurt, the venerable to be victimized, corruption exists because those who know allow it to. |
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| pentax | Oct 1 2005, 01:04 AM Post #128 |
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Kamloops - BC Interior
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Not trying to hi-jack the thread, but Global News tonight (a national network here) had a piece on the new Pope's "suggestion" (so far that's all it is) that Priests refuse Communion for political leaders who participate in establishing Legislation that is not in the strict teaching of the Church! In Canada's case, that includes our Prime Minister Martin, a devout Catholic, because he was part of a Government that has passed SSM Legislation, by a Parliamentary vote. (The Priest of the church he attends was interviewed, and said he would NOT refuse Communion to him, or anyone else.) Now to be clear, I am not Catholic, so I don't know how seriously this affects a member of the Congregation - but it sure as Heck sounds pretty serious! What the Heck is going on?
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![]() (thumbnail) ![]() "Kirk to Enterprise - Very funny, Scotty.... now beam down my clothes!" | |
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| passinthru | Oct 1 2005, 04:54 AM Post #129 |
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John - Gainesville, FL
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spacebeing wrote:
It sounds as if the church might better be served if the pope put out an edict that non-celebate priests (or non-celebate priests in training) would be removed from the church and Bishops that are unwilling to do so will be removed and replaced, and in a timely manner. A parallel: I was talking to my son about fraud and the fact that 90% goes uninvestigated and unprosecuted which astounded me. I thought the reason was the hassle to investigate in that the police ask how much was stolen and have you had a fraud investigator determine the extent of the fraud before they will act. My son said maybe others don't want the investigation for fear it would uncover something (or somebody) else further up the line who is stealing too. This may be the problem within the hierarchy of the church. The current action may be looked at as less disruptive to the operation of the church, but it will hurt many honest priests (and seminarians) in the process. Kind of like feeling a thumping in an 18 wheeler and replacing all the tires instead of replacing just the bad one. It might be better to replace the driver who won't inspect the tires, or the supervisor who doesn't insist on drivers inspecting the tires. |
| Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money... | |
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| cmoehle | Oct 1 2005, 04:54 AM Post #130 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Mike "Those here who suggest all priests be casterated need to address their own flaws before suggesting it to another." Mike, I think you need to understand the argument technique call reductio ad absurdum ("reduction to the impossible"). The idea is to take an argument, assume it true as premise, then argue it out logically to a riduculous conclusion. If it is absurd, why then the original premise is false. Some in this discussion have argued that because some homosexual priests molest that all homosexuals should be barred from the seminary. Assuming that as premise it is a simple logical matter to extend it to because some heterosexual priests molest that all heterosexual priests should be barred. Obviously that leads to an absurdity. Therefore, the orginal assumed argument is false. Mike "What is the bottom line here? It is teaching the faithful, administering the sacraments, being shephards---not molesting children. " Yes, exactly. Does the proposed papal edict address the bottom line? Most who do not accept the absurdity of the above argument do not seem to think it does. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| cmoehle | Oct 1 2005, 04:58 AM Post #131 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Mur "the new Pope's "suggestion" (so far that's all it is) that Priests refuse Communion for political leaders " So I guess I can come out of the peanut gallery as this institutionalized religious interference in government is a dangerous thing that affects me as a citizen. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| puli-one | Oct 1 2005, 11:03 AM Post #132 |
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I guess I have a real dumb question : " How is the Pope going to cull the Homosexuals from the flock in the seminaries". If you have a celibate homosexual will he stand out from the heterosexual priest, if so, how. If there is a questionnaire circulated asking your sexuality and one answers untruthfully, what then. Is the non celibate heterosexual priest not just as ill serving as the celibate homosexual priest. I presume it will be the Bishops who will be doing the administering of the edict, are any of them celibate homosexuals, or just celibate heterosexuals. This will be a very tough process for many of the faithful to understand. |
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Don & Donna Puli Pup - Kelly | |
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| campingken | Oct 1 2005, 11:11 AM Post #133 |
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While it may take the church 4 years to investigate a report of a priest abusing a kid the local cops will be on it within a day or 2. The church should have done a dual investiagtion, both external and internal. Had this been done I don't think there would have been such a major Church melt down. There are a lot of Priests and very few of them commited any crimes. I hate to see the acts of a few used as an excuse for a Homosexual Witch Hunt. That is way to midevil for me. If anyone has been reading the results of surveys re: teenage sexual activity you know that homosexuality is here to stay. Praying, counseling, etc. will not change the future. Ken Sequim Wa. |
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| 5thwheeler | Oct 1 2005, 05:46 PM Post #134 |
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Get the message?
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Not if you liked it?
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History 101: When a popular myth is believed to be factual, teach the myth. Its not possible to underestimate the intelligence of the voting populous. Hummm, after seeing the results of the 06 election, I may have to modify my perception of the voting populous and refer to them as "Late Bloomers".
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| bikemanb | Oct 1 2005, 06:19 PM Post #135 |
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Liberal Conservative
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As a fallen Catholic who was once an altar boy and someone whose family wanted them to become a priest I will make this one comment, when I discovered some of the fun things that girls and boys could do together the first thing that sprang to mind was......live the rest of my life without this…NO WAY! I believe it is about time the church accept the idea of married clergy, but a celibate gay priest, preacher or rabbi does not offend me. Never had a priest or nun abuse me other than beat the heck out of me and as some other posters have noted, the crimes of a few are being used as a wide paint brush. The biggest crime was the bishops and cardinals that covered up the abuse, no different than a large corporation trying to keep unfavorable news from leaking out, but you would have hoped the moral compass would have kept it from playing out that way. If I remember the statistics correctly the last time I look it up the majority of pedophiles are allegedly "straight". |
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Bill, Rita and Chloe the Terror Cat For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise. Benjamin Franklin | |
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