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Edict From The Pope; No gays allowed in Cath. Seminary
Topic Started: Sep 27 2005, 09:18 PM (1,912 Views)
cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
No kidding, Mur. Great paper by graduates from a military academy and computer science and published for peer review by the scientific community in HOMILETIC & PASTORAL REVIEW. That carries a lot of weight.


Let's return to Jelly's first linked "study", the Cracked Planet of Jeff Lindsay.

Linsay argues homosexuality is the cause of molestation. He claims to derive this from a National Review Board study.

But that study concludes: "...neither the presence of homosexually-oriented priests nor the discipline of celebacy caused the crisis...."

It also says "There are no doubt many outstanding priests of homosexual orientation who live chaste, celebate lives...."

Linsay discredits himself by this distorted lie.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
spacebeing
Sep 30 2005, 12:30 AM
Passinthru,

I understand your bewilderment. It sounds like your nephew will need to pursue his mission of service outside the priesthood. "GOD" obviously has other plans for him.

I thought the Pope issues edicts, not God.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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passinthru
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John - Gainesville, FL
Pathetic.
Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money...
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puli-one
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From the NY Times this morning: Maybe there is help on the way -

(sorry I can't make it clickable)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/30/national....html?th&emc=th


Don & Donna
Puli Pup - Kelly
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Julie
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from medicinenet.com

Quote:
 
Explaining Pedophilia
What Is Pedophilia?

WebMD Feature

Reviewed By Gary Vogin

The ongoing Michael Jackson child molestation case has put pedophilia in the national spotlight once again. Despite -- or perhaps because of -- all the headlines surrounding the case, as well as lurid accounts of child molestation in the Catholic Church, many people still don't understand what this mental illness is all about.

The biggest misunderstanding many people have is that pedophilia and homosexuality are one and the same. But to say that all homosexuals are pedophiles, or that all pedophiles are homosexual, is like comparing apples to rat poison. "They certainly are two distinct things," says James Hord, a psychologist in Panama City, Fla., who specializes in treating sexually abused children.

Hord explains that while some pedophiles may prefer boys over girls, or vice versa, it's not so much about gender as it is about age. For homosexuals, Hord says, sexual preference is "simply not linked to the age." If a man, for instance, is attracted to other adult males, he is a homosexual. A man who is sexually attracted to male children is not considered a homosexual: He is a pedophile.
Insecurity at Heart of Pedophilia

As with all things sexual, however, it's not always so simple. Heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual men and women may become sexually attracted to children even though they're also attracted to adults. When this happens, it's usually because of insecurity or stress in an adult relationship, says Anthony Siracusa, a psychologist in Williamstown, Mass., who specializes in treating abused kids and sexual offenders.

These people, Siracusa says, are called "regressed offenders" because they have literally regressed: They lose the social skills they need to deal with other adults, which makes children more attractive to them. Regressed offenders may "bounce back and forth" between normal sexual relationships and criminal relations with children.

Insecurity, Hord agrees, is at the heart of pedophilia. Typically, pedophiles have trouble relating to people their own age. They need to feel they have power and control in a relationship, which is easy with children. One pedophile, "PwC," attests to this, writing on a pedophilia Web site:

"I'm 21 years old, and a virgin, I've never even kissed a girl. I have no job, and can't keep one. I'm frustrated that I'm a virgin, and it seems very unlikely that I'll ever get the kind of woman I want, and I'm desperate, because I need love. I never have molested a little girl, never! I want to though, I'm truly desperate. I want to hold a little girl in my arms, and tell her I love her, and that I'll keep her safe, and protect her, that appeals to me greatly."

This man is remorseful, but there are plenty of pedophiles who are not. Men and women who molest kids "for sport," as Hord puts it, are the most dangerous. They are also the ones who try to justify their sexual preference, arguing that pedophilia should be "normalized," just like homosexuality has been.

Homosexuality was, in fact, listed as a mental illness in psychiatry's main reference book, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, until the third edition came out in 1980. This edition included a category for homosexuals who were troubled by their sexuality and wanted to change it. All mention of homosexuality, however, was purged from the manual by 1987.

"It was well overdue," Siracusa says.

According to a 1994 statement from the American Psychiatric Association, the change came after decades of research showed that "a significant portion of gay and lesbian people were clearly satisfied with their sexual orientation" and showed no signs of mental illness. "It was also found that homosexuals were able to function effectively in society, and those who sought treatment most often did so for reasons other than their homosexuality."
Mental health professionals agree that pedophilia should never be considered normal, because it is truly a disease. None of the things that make homosexuality a normal variation of human sexuality apply to pedophilia.

Sadly, there is no "cure" for the disease. Therapy combined with drugs like SSRIs (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors), which includes Prozac and Paxil, works well for many people with other mental illnesses, but it doesn't work for most pedophiles. The best doctors can really hope for is to help keep pedophiles from acting on their urges.

More Than Innocence Lost

The first thing that jumps to mind when we hear about a child having been sexually abused is the "loss of innocence." But that's our reaction, not necessarily the child's.

Although you may shudder to hear it, the fact is that young children may enjoy the experience. It's not until later in life, as they mature sexually, that these kids realize what happened to them was bad, and they begin to have problems.

"All cases result in some harmful effects," Hord says, even though problems may not show up until years or even decades after the abuse happened.

Abused kids are hurt in different ways depending on whether the abuser was a stranger or a beloved figure in the child's life, like a parent. "To treat those two children the same is just nonsense," Hord says. In cases where a parent commits sexual abuse, "We have a very confused child," he says.

Children who are molested by loved ones often feel tremendous guilt for having reported the abuse, which is not typically the case when the offender is a stranger. When abuse happens in the family, "The child is groomed into that circumstance," Siracusa says. As it goes on over time, he or she accepts it as the norm, and it becomes a matter of balance in the family. The child wants to be good and help keep the family running smoothly. Once the child realizes that the sexual relationship is wrong and tells someone about it, "They've now unsettled the balance," Siracusa says.

Often, "The family feels victimized by the child's disclosure," he says. The guilt-ridden child may then take back the statement, denying that anything ever happened. This causes even more problems for everyone involved.

Signs in Child's Behavior

Hord says that when he's dealing with these children in therapy, he tries not to focus on the abuser any more than he has to. It doesn't help the child, he says, to explain that this beloved adult is a criminal, a monster, or a sick person. "I try not to offer any more explanations than the child demands," he says. "The child will develop an answer that makes sense to the child."

In the long run, sexual abuse during childhood can lead to just about any kind of mental problem, including depression, alcohol or drug abuse, and anxiety disorders. Some, but not all abused children go on to become pedophiles themselves. Right away, abused kids may have trouble sleeping and eating. They may revert to thumb sucking and bed wetting. They may act out or withdraw. But to read a list like this can be misleading, Hord says, because all these things might be caused by something else.

According the American Psychological Association, there are clearer signs: Abused children may know more about sex than you have taught them, or they may have an "inappropriate" interest in sex for their age, which may include acting out sexually with others. (Experimenting with masturbation is normal, however.)

If a child tells you that he or she has been sexually abused -- although probably not in those words -- that's the clearest sign of all. Children rarely lie about it.

Most kids who are molested know the perpetrator, so "don't take candy from strangers" doesn't always apply. You have to tell your kids that no adult should touch them -- or ask to be touched -- in any way that's confusing or scary. Teach children to say, "no," and to tell you immediately if it happens. You should also teach them that no adult should ever ask them to keep a touch or a kiss secret.

The Kidscape Charity for Children's Safety, in London, interviewed 91 pedophiles about their methods for choosing child victims. The researchers found that pedophiles are skilled at charming children into their trust, plying them with gifts, and taking them on fun outings. They "often target single-parent families where mothers might be especially grateful for help with looking after the children." Nearly one-half of the pedophiles the researchers spoke to met the children they molested through babysitting.

You should be suspicious of someone who seems overly interested in your kids, especially if they're always angling to be alone with them.

If you suspect that someone you know may be a pedophile, you can check your state's criminal records. The Safeguarding Our Children organization has a page of links to state sexual offender registries online at www.soc-um.org/register.html.

Despite the fact that most cases of sexual abuse involve an adult the child knows, kids are sometimes assaulted by strangers.

One thing you can tell your kids is never to get close to a car if someone stops and asks for directions, lest they be snatched. It's also important to teach them that they will not be punished for breaking a rule if someone tries to molest them while they're breaking it. According to Kidscape, "One child was walking in a park when told not to and was molested -- she was afraid to tell because she had broken the rule about being in the park."

Some pedophiles troll the Internet, so you should make sure you know what your kids are doing on the computer. Tell them never to meet privately with anyone they have met online and never to give out personal information, like where they live.

Children should also know what to do if they get lost. It's helpful to give them a prepaid calling card to use if this happens: They should memorize their phone number and address. Tell them to call the police if they can't find you or reach you on the phone, and never to accept a ride or wait alone with an adult they don't know. If you're coming to fetch them, tell them to wait in a store or restaurant -- someplace where there are plenty of people around.

Originally published April 8, 2002.

Medically updated March 21, 2005.


If you keep doing what you’ve always done, you’ll keep getting what you’ve always gotten.
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passinthru
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John - Gainesville, FL
I thank the good hearted people of this forum for their support; the rest, well, you read the Bible...
Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money...
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Julie
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Passin, people fear that which they do not know or understand.
I have gay friends...in getting to know them, as human beings not simply as homosexuals, I understood that if they are attracted to a member of the same sex is of no consequence to me. Why should it matter?

Ticks me off greatly when the bible is used to spread hatred, misunderstanding and bigotry. All in the name of a loving God? Hmmmm....~~scrathching my head~~~
If you keep doing what you’ve always done, you’ll keep getting what you’ve always gotten.
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PRT
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John,
There's more sanity and kindness here than sometimes meets the eye :hug:
Puli,
Excellent link to the NY Times article. Thanks so much. I would suggest everyone read it.
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5thwheeler
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Get the message?
Julie
Sep 30 2005, 09:41 AM
Passin, people fear that which they do not know or understand.
I have gay friends...in getting to know them, as human beings not simply as homosexuals, I understood that if they are attracted to a member of the same sex is of no consequence to me. Why should it matter?

Ticks me off greatly when the bible is used to spread hatred, misunderstanding and bigotry. All in the name of a loving God? Hmmmm....~~scrathching my head~~~

Ditto...
History 101: When a popular myth is believed to be factual, teach the myth.

Its not possible to underestimate the intelligence of the voting populous.

Hummm, after seeing the results of the 06 election, I may have to modify my perception of the voting populous and refer to them as "Late Bloomers".

:ohmy:
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Julie
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another interesting article: (taken from about.com)

Quote:
 
Evangelical Christianity & Homosexuality
Understanding the Relationship



Evangelical and conservative Christians can be counted upon to exhibit outrage and dismay over just about any attempts to treat gays like equal citizens. I'm not talking about gay marriage here, an arguably difficult and controversial issue. I'm talking about something much more basic: whether or not gays should be protected from discrimination when it comes to things like hiring, firing, housing, and financial transactions.

Non-evangelicals and non-Christians will typically find opposition to such anti-discrimination laws to be puzzling. At most one might try to argue that they aren't necessary, or perhaps that all anti-discrimination laws are wrong, but evangelicals go much further and argue that such anti-gay discrimination should be expressly allowed even when it is not permitted in the context of race or gender.

To understand why this is so, we must bear in mind that evangelical Christians don't treat homosexuality as an orientation, they treat it as a behavior. In essence, they are speaking a different language when talking about gays. For them, being gay is like being addicted to cocaine: you can stop if you really want to and try hard enough. Once you stop, you may continue to feel the urges to use the product, but so long as you don't give in to the temptation, you're okay (you're no longer a cocaine user, you're no longer a homosexual).

This means that to them, laws against discrimination of gays aren't a matter of being told "you can't refuse to hire a person simply because he finds other men sexually attractive." That would be no more objectionable than being told "you can't refuse to hire a person simply because he finds women other that his wife sexually attractive." Consider the following comment from Hal Lindsey:

There were homosexuals in the Corinthian Church Đ just as there were fornicators, adulterers, thieves, drunkards, etc. All of these were forgiven and justified before God when they received the gift of pardon purchased for them by Jesus Christ. But just as the thief, the adulterer, the fornicator and the drunkard were required to change their behavior, so the homosexual had to change his lifestyle.

Laws banning discrimination against gays are, for evangelicals and fundamentalists like Lindesy, a matter of being told "you can't refuse to hire a person who engages in the sinful activity of gay sex." They see that as being substantially the same as being told "you can't refuse to hire a person who engages in the sinful activity of being a thief."

What this means is that getting them to accept laws banning discrimination against gays requires making thrm understand that homosexuality is a sexual orientation, not simply a type of sexual behavior. They need to realize that a person can be gay even without engaging in sexual behavior with a person of the same gender - and that a person who does engage in such behavior isn't necessarily gay.

But that seems rather unlikely. For evangelical and conservative Christians, homosexuality needs to be a behavior in order to fit in with the principle that it is a sin which can be overcome. Under the traditional Christian conception of morality, sins are behaviors which we all choose and which, at least in theory, we can choose not to engage in. It is true that we can't choose not to be sinners and so we cannot choose never to sin at all, but we are still personally responsible for individual sinful acts which we commit.

Thus, being attracted to a member of the same sex is not a sin, it's simply a temptation to sin. A person doesn't choose to be tempted, althoug a person does choose whether or not they end up in situations where the temptation is likely too be stronger. So long as the temptation is resisted, a person remains free from actual sinning. Thus, if homosexuality were defined as an orientation, it would be very difficult to maintain the idea that it is a sin (the Roman Catholic Church, which accepts the conception of homosexuality as an orientation, gets around this problem by describing homosexuality as a "disorder").

Evangelical Christians also need to view homosexuality as a type of behavior in order to accept the existence of an ex-gay movement of people who have indeed overcome homosexuality. A homosexual orientation that isn't your choice isn't sinful and can't just be set aside through a 12-step program - it's a part of you, just as heterosexuality is a part of other people.

This also explains many people's disbelief that someone really can become an "ex-gay." It isn't necessarily that they stop finding members of the same sex attractive, although they may avoid being put in a situation where such attraction can develop. Instead, they develop stable relationships with members of the opposite sex. So long as their sexual activity is confined to a marriage with a member of the opposite sex and never occurs with members of the same sex, then they are no longer giving in to sin and hence are no longer gay.

It should be clear that the opposition of evangelicals and fundamentalists to anti-discrimination laws that address sexual orientation is based largely upon their misunderstandings of homosexuality - the same misunderstandings that form the basis of so much of their reaction to homosexuality in general. It seems to follow that if these misunderstandings could be cleared up, quite a lot of the rancor which currently exists between evangelical Christians and gays might also be cleared up. Unfortunately, the prospects of this would appear to be quite dim.



If you keep doing what you’ve always done, you’ll keep getting what you’ve always gotten.
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roz
Roz - Texas

.........another Ditto for Julie's post!
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Psycmeistr
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cmoehle
Sep 28 2005, 04:34 AM
Especially as some insist they hate the sin not the sinner.

What I see is a church failing to accept responsibility and instead sweeping it under the run of a common scapegoat.

Given that a vast majority of those abused by priests are boys, it would make good sense not to ordain gays. Forget the PC garbage.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Psycmeistr
Sep 30 2005, 12:03 PM
cmoehle
Sep 28 2005, 04:34 AM
Especially as some insist they hate the sin not the sinner.

What I see is a church failing to accept responsibility and instead sweeping it under the run of a common scapegoat.

Given that a vast majority of those abused by priests are boys, it would make good sense not to ordain gays. Forget the PC garbage.

And in its place spout RC (religiously correct) garbage?

I'm guessing you agree with Jelly's now discredited author.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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Fr. Mike
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"I thought the Pope issues edicts, not God."

You are right, he does.

The Pope is the shepard of the church and is responsible for determining ultimately who is accepted or not excepted into the priesthood.

By some remarks, it appears that some non-Catholics feel that he made a mistake. I suppose that goes with the territory of being a leader. There will always be a peanut gallary.
A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ

Don't forget to say your prayers!
The unborn have rights too.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Won't speak for the many Catholics here, Mike, but my general impression is many feel the Pope is making a mistake.
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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