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Edict From The Pope; No gays allowed in Cath. Seminary
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Topic Started: Sep 27 2005, 09:18 PM (1,913 Views)
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Julie
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Sep 29 2005, 05:46 PM
Post #61
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I was always taught in Catholic school that God doesnt hate homosexuals. He hates the homosexual act.
So since a presit takes a vow of celibacy, keeping gay men out of the preisthood seems like a moot point, no?
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If you keep doing what you’ve always done, you’ll keep getting what you’ve always gotten.
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cmoehle
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Sep 29 2005, 05:56 PM
Post #62
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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- Jelly Bean
- Sep 29 2005, 06:36 PM
- cmoehle
- Sep 29 2005, 05:08 PM
- Jelly Bean
- Sep 29 2005, 05:58 PM
- cmoehle
- Sep 29 2005, 04:50 PM
Jelly "roscoe here is the info you seek on the first article from the "eccentric" as chris called him"
Recall that I pointed out how he had distorted the facts and ignored the conclusions of the studies he based his opinion on. From that I concluded he was an eccentric.
I wonder why you are disputing everything else I said but that??
Chris, I do not agree that the writer, or the priests in the washington post article distorted. I do not agree with you.
What do you base that on? Did you read the studies the author referred to? Believe me, I do not make such accusations lightly, do not make them without doing the research. I ask, did you?
huh? You lost me. You said it was distorted, I just asked how?
Jelly, you did not ask me anything. You simply said you disagreed. So I asked you what was the basis of your disagreement.
But I would like to step aside for a minute. I feel John has made a number of poignant statements from the heart that you, Jelly, in your stance against gays really ought to address rather than diverting attention.
I apologize for my part in the distraction, John.
Let me quote John's words so they are fresh before you:- Quote:
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What I find most disturbing about this is that it suggests that my nephew, simply because he is homosexual, whether "practicing" or not, us unfit to be a priest becuase of the way he views men and women, and further that because of his homosexuality, he will molest children. That somehow his ability to minister to others makes no difference, and that he is inately immoral, in spite of his courage to face his sexuality, accept it, and move forward with his life of service in the name of Jesus.
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater
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Fr. Mike
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Sep 29 2005, 06:21 PM
Post #63
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quote: "What I find most disturbing about this is that it suggests that my nephew, simply because he is homosexual, whether "practicing" or not, us unfit to be a priest becuase of the way he views men and women, and further that because of his homosexuality, he will molest children. That somehow his ability to minister to others makes no difference, and that he is inately immoral, in spite of his courage to face his sexuality, accept it, and move forward with his life of service in the name of Jesus."
Actually the position at present is to prevent homosexual men from going through the formation process that may result in them becoming ordained priests.
The issue of removing homosexual priests has not been addressed. The issue of removing priests that have been unable to maintain a chaste life is a decision that at present has been left up to the Bishops. The current practice [and this varies from diocese to diocese] is to counsel and and then advice the priest to take up an even more vigilant effort towards deepening their spiritual nature-- through prayer and solitude. The issue of grace and forgiveness has always been the basis for this approach.
If your nephew is chaste, then I see no reason for him to be insecure in his chosen vocation. But I do believe that the pressure on bishops to reel in repeat offenders when it comes to celebacy may result in them being less tolerant of these offenders and result in new policies. The process of removing a person from the priesthood at present is long and entails permission from Rome.
I often wonder where all these statistics regarding priest sexual orientation come from.
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A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ
Don't forget to say your prayers! The unborn have rights too.
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passinthru
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Sep 29 2005, 06:30 PM
Post #64
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John - Gainesville, FL
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Actually the position at present is to prevent homosexual men from going through the formation process that may result in them becoming ordained priests.
Since my nephew is currently a friar, having taken his final vows, and is now enrolled in seminary to become a priest, it smacks him directly in the face. It also smacks every other homosexual priest in the face too in that the process that they went through to become a priest will be denied to others simply because they are homosexual, not because they are incapable leaders, or unable to minister to the needy, weak, poor, troubled, sick, or lost. Either homosexual priests are inately unable to minister or they are not.
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Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money...
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Jelly Bean
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Sep 29 2005, 07:01 PM
Post #65
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- cmoehle
- Sep 29 2005, 05:56 PM
- Jelly Bean
- Sep 29 2005, 06:36 PM
- cmoehle
- Sep 29 2005, 05:08 PM
- Jelly Bean
- Sep 29 2005, 05:58 PM
- cmoehle
- Sep 29 2005, 04:50 PM
Jelly "roscoe here is the info you seek on the first article from the "eccentric" as chris called him"
Recall that I pointed out how he had distorted the facts and ignored the conclusions of the studies he based his opinion on. From that I concluded he was an eccentric.
I wonder why you are disputing everything else I said but that??
Chris, I do not agree that the writer, or the priests in the washington post article distorted. I do not agree with you.
What do you base that on? Did you read the studies the author referred to? Believe me, I do not make such accusations lightly, do not make them without doing the research. I ask, did you?
huh? You lost me. You said it was distorted, I just asked how?
Jelly, you did not ask me anything. You simply said you disagreed. So I asked you what was the basis of your disagreement. But I would like to step aside for a minute. I feel John has made a number of poignant statements from the heart that you, Jelly, in your stance against gays really ought to address rather than diverting attention. I apologize for my part in the distraction, John. Let me quote John's words so they are fresh before you: - Quote:
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What I find most disturbing about this is that it suggests that my nephew, simply because he is homosexual, whether "practicing" or not, us unfit to be a priest becuase of the way he views men and women, and further that because of his homosexuality, he will molest children. That somehow his ability to minister to others makes no difference, and that he is inately immoral, in spite of his courage to face his sexuality, accept it, and move forward with his life of service in the name of Jesus.
I was not diverting attention away from pass, (at least not purposely) chris, but I would agree that you have been a distraction, and I have been mainly talking to you and not him, because it seems (to me), for whatever reason...probably your constant questioning of me, to be dominating the conversation. I apologize to you pass. So what is it you want me to deal with, his nephew? Whether its fair?
I believe if his nephew takes the position in the Catholic Church and at the same time believes his orientation is how God preferred for him to be made then I believe it is contrary to the Word of God.
Btw, Pass and I are not new to this conversation of homosexuality in the church, and our feelings and understandings about it...remember all those messages between us pass in ATC days regarding the subject? We were able to discuss them civilly then, and hope to do the same now. And we did it behind the scene, it wasn't about being in the forefront, trying to win debates and opinions on a forum, but a true sharing of info, gaining to understand one another.
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passinthru
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Sep 29 2005, 07:15 PM
Post #66
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John - Gainesville, FL
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I believe if his nephew takes the position in the Catholic Church and at the same time believes his orientation is how God preferred for him to be made then I believe it is contrary to the Word of God.
I didn't say that "his orientation is how God preferred for him to be," be it is how he is. From our previous discussions I know that you believe homosexuality to be a choice; I know of no homosexuals, none, that believe it is a choice, and that includes my nephew. He has chosen a life dedicated to Jesus and serves the poor and distraught. This included a vow of chastity. Is it the homosexual you damn or the homosexuality? There is no homosexuality. but that doesn't change the fact that he is homosexual. This modern day witchhunt, based at best of three or four verses in the Bible, some of which are open to interpretation, makes me sick. There are over three thousand references to serving the poor and needy; why not concentrate on them as my nephew does? I hope the everyone who is riding their broom remembers on their deathbed what Jesus said, "What you do the the least of them, you do onto me."
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Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money...
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Jelly Bean
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Sep 29 2005, 07:42 PM
Post #67
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- passinthru
- Sep 29 2005, 07:15 PM
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I believe if his nephew takes the position in the Catholic Church and at the same time believes his orientation is how God preferred for him to be made then I believe it is contrary to the Word of God.
I didn't say that "his orientation is how God preferred for him to be," be it is how he is. From our previous discussions I know that you believe homosexuality to be a choice; I know of no homosexuals, none, that believe it is a choice, and that includes my nephew. He has chosen a life dedicated to Jesus and serves the poor and distraught. This included a vow of chastity. Is it the homosexual you damn or the homosexuality? There is no homosexuality. but that doesn't change the fact that he is homosexual. This modern day witchhunt, based at best of three or four verses in the Bible, some of which are open to interpretation, makes me sick. There are over three thousand references to serving the poor and needy; why not concentrate on them as my nephew does? I hope the everyone who is riding their broom remembers on their deathbed what Jesus said, "What you do the the least of them, you do onto me."
riding their brooms?
Pass, I know he is your nephew, and you love him and care for his well being. Many of us have friends and/or family who suffer from the same desires. Pass, I live in southern California, you might as well call us a gay state, I'm surprised that you have never met a homosexual who doesn't say they believe they were born that way, in fact many I have spoke to have shared a molestation story or a problem with a parent from a very early age. Forget me, and my testimony of what homosexuals have said to me. Just look at the television media or music industry and Ellen's lover leaving her for a guy, and the rock star female (her name escapes me), when her gal left her for a guy. That's x 2 examples of flip flopping. I see a lot of that out here....a lot of people consider it their "experimental" time. Pass it is only sin, like other sins. When I, as a married women, lust after other men, should I say that I have no choice? I do concentrate on the poor and needy. I'm happy your nephew does that. He doesn't have to be a catholic priest to be able to do that. If he has a love for helping people, his being a priest or not should not prohibit him.
And, it is the homosexuality the Bible is against. I don't damn anyone. I know plenty who fight those urges, instead of embracing them. They may mess up, but they pick up and try again. And never, never would they say that God made them that way, because it contradicts the many verses the Bible states clearly about homosexuality being wrong.
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Jelly Bean
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Sep 29 2005, 07:55 PM
Post #68
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Just more food for thought different priest, saying same problem
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=26940
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SUFFER THE CHILDREN 'Gay' culture in Catholic Church grows Priest says scandal really about homosexuality, not pedophilia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: March 24, 2002 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Toby Westerman © 2002 WorldNetDaily.com
A "gay" culture is growing among clergy of the American Catholic Church that receives support from members of the hierarchy as well as from those directly involved in the training of priests, according to a Catholic priest-theologian.
As the scandal of clerical abuse within the Catholic Church in the U.S. continues to grow – whose cost is estimated to approach $1 billion – the role of the hierarchy is coming under scrutiny.
With nearly one in four Americans counting themselves as Catholic, the burgeoning crisis of sexual abuse by the Church's clergy directly impacts American society and family values. While the number of priests and bishops involved in abuse remains unknown, it is reliably estimated to be no more than 2 percent of the total in the U.S.
In an exclusive interview with WorldNetDaily, an influential Catholic priest, author and lecturer opens up the murky underworld of the homosexual clergy, its recruiters and its protectors.
The Rev. Charles Fiore, a Catholic priest for 42 years, has fought the homosexual influence in the clergy almost from the date of his ordination. With degrees in philosophy and theology, as well as clinical training at Menninger's and the State Hospital in Topeka, Kan., Fiore has both condemned the actions of homosexual priests and counseled the victims of their abuse.
Originally ordained a Dominican priest in 1961, Fiore's primary duties involved college-level teaching in various Catholic institutions in the United States, as well as at the Dominican Pontifical University, the Angelicum, in Rome. He also was an early pro-life leader and home-schooling advocate.
Fiore was a close friend of priest/author Malachi Martin and supplied Martin with significant material for his later works. Having appeared on radio and network television, Fiore has written numerous articles concerning clerical abuse.
Prolonged illness, however, has curtailed most of Fiore's activities.
Although gratified that the U.S. media is addressing the issue of clerical abuse, Fiore takes issue with how the problem is being presented to the public, questioning the use of the term "pedophilia."
"The problem is not clerical pedophilia," Fiore told WND, "but homosexuality." The distinction is important, Fiore noted, because most victims of Catholic clergy abuse are adolescents.
"Strictly speaking," Fiore stated, "pedophilia is the sexual molestation of a pre-pubescent child of either sex," but the overriding problem is the abuse of older children from 12 to 18. "More than 90 percent of the cases," Fiore observed, "involve the clerical molestation of teen-age young men."
In reporting clerical abuse, "the grand taboo in U.S. culture is to focus on homosexuality," Fiore stated.
"Pedophilia is done only by an aberrant few," but society "looks upon homosexuality as an alternative way of life," explained Fiore.
His introduction to how some cases of clerical child abuse are handled came early on in Fiore's priesthood.
He related that in his first assignment, while teaching in a college and living in a parish, he found himself scheduling altar boys for the week's services, since the priest who usually performed the task was on vacation.
While directing the servers, a group of three boys approached Fiore and complained of the other priest's behavior, describing various forms of inappropriate touching.
In turn, Fiore and another priest relayed the altar boys' complaints to the pastor and suggested that the miscreant priest be questioned and possibly removed from contact with the boys.
Fiore recalled the pastor telling him to "mind your own business," and Fiore responding, "It is my business; it's the business of all of us."
The matter was referred to the Dominican provincial superior, resulting in the offending priest's transfer – to an all-boys school in another state – and the transfer of the young priests who related the altar boys' complaints, while the pastor who demanded silence over the issue remained in his position.
Later in his career, Fiore observed the tactics of one Monsignor Edward Egan, who once served as an assistant to John Cardinal Cody in Chicago.
Egan, currently Cardinal Archbishop of New York, is surrounded by accusations of clerical abuse against a number of priests. While now expressing willingness to cooperate with authorities, as archbishop of Bridgeport, Conn., Egan, according to a report in the Hartford Courant, sought to deflect responsibility for homosexual activity of certain priests by claiming they were "independent contractors."
Under Cody in Chicago, Egan had been informally known as the Cardinal's "hatchet man," Fiore said. When parents of victims charged molestation and threatened to sue, Egan would warn the parents that the archdiocese was ready to fight them in court.
Fiore also said that he personally knew of many instances where families collapsed due to the strain from such tactics, and family members left the Church in disgust.
Having counseled close to 100 victims of clerical abuse, and after he wrote on the topic, Fiore was contacted by victims and their families regarding their own experience with abusive priests and allegedly indifferent bishops.
Ultimately, Fiore left the Dominican Order in 1992 and, with the permission of Vatican authorities, joined a group of priests dedicated to the traditional form of the Mass, as well as strict observance of Church teaching on theology and morality.
The role of bishops
As the accusations of the guilt or complicity of the U.S. Catholic hierarchy continues to grow, attention is focusing upon some of the most powerful bishops in America – both living and dead.
While Cardinal Law of Boston and Egan of New York are in the glare of media attention after charges of abuse in their dioceses became public, another media investigation is quietly proceeding into the activities of other bishops who worked closely with the late Joseph Cardinal Bernardin of Chicago.
In 1993, an admittedly active homosexual, Stephen Cook, accused Bernardin of sexually abusing him when he was a seminarian in Cincinnati. Although Cook subsequently dropped his suit against Bernardin, stating that he could "no longer trust his memory," Cook nevertheless did not recant his allegations.
Nine months before his death in September 1994 from AIDS, Cook was visited by Bernardin, who wrote about the meeting in the Chicago archdiocese newspaper, the New World. He took the highly unusual step of giving Cook – a man Bernardin earlier claimed he had never met – the chalice with which he said Mass. The gift was especially odd in that Cook never renounced his homosexual activities. At one point, Cook declared that "the Church will change before I will."
According to traditional Catholic belief, if Cook died unrepentant, he would place himself outside of Christ's mercy.
A media investigation currently is looking not only into allegations concerning Bernardin's relationship with Cook but also alleged homosexual liaisons with other bishops and seminarians, WorldNetDaily has learned.
Although the hierarchy has only reluctantly begun to come to terms with homosexuality in the clergy, members of the laity have fought instances of clerical abuse for years.
One of the leading lay Catholic organizations seeking to expose and eliminate clerical abuse is Roman Catholic Faithful in Petersburg, Ill., near Springfield.
The organization's founder, Steven Brady, says his group, which has been in existence since 1996, succeeded in forcing the resignation in 1999 of the bishop of Springfield, Ill., Daniel Ryan, over charges of overt homosexual activities and sexually abusive behavior.
Ryan denies any wrongdoing, but his resignation claiming ill health immediately followed a threatened suit by Roman Catholic Faithful. Although he resigned his position as bishop of Springfield, Ryan is known to continue to publicly act as a bishop at certain functions in the state of Illinois, an act that requires the permission of at least one of his brother bishops.
Regarding the current publicity given to clerical abuse, Brady said he hopes the media exposure "keeps going" because it "is the only way issues will be addressed." He congratulated the media for being "more willing [than in the past] to cover these stories."
Pope throws up his hands
Despite the Catholic Church's traditional ban on homosexual activity, the "gay" culture within the Church has its apologists.
Rev. Donald Cozzens, former rector at the Archdiocese of Cleveland seminary, suggested in his 2000 book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," that each bishop should determine what percentage of homosexuals priests would be acceptable in his diocese.
In addition, the term "celibacy" has taken on an entirely different meaning in some seminaries from the traditional understanding of the word.
Some seminary professors and students hold "celibacy" refers only to being unmarried, but not necessarily refraining from sexual activity.
Because the Catholic Church is a "top-down" organization, lead by an unelected, appointed hierarchy, the question arises: What did the pope know, and when did he know it?
Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the U.S. bishops and the Vatican had noted a growing problem with clerical abuse in the U.S. as the number of such incidents increased and the number of priests sent for therapy due to their abusive behavior grew.
The extent of the problem of priest-abusers was further clarified by a report commissioned by the bishops and the Apostolic Delegate (Papal representative) to the U.S., Archbishop (now Cardinal) Pio Laghi.
In the early 1990s, a group of priests, including Fiore, assembled a dossier on ecclesiastical problems in the U.S. The information was carefully collected and documented with guidance on Church law given by the Rev. Alfred Kunz, a canon lawyer.
Kunz also assisted in the founding of Roman Catholic Faithful. In 1998, Kunz was mysteriously murdered, and the police thus far have been unable to make any conclusive progress toward solving the murder. Fiore described Kunz as "having no enemies – except those who hated the Church."
According to Fiore, the dossier was sent by courier to Rome. The courier was a Polish-speaking priest and a friend of Pope John Paul II's personal secretary, then-Monsignor, now Archbishop, Stanislaus Dsiewicz.
Dsiewicz brought the file to the pope's attention. The pope briefly examined the documents, Fiore says, put them aside and then, referring to his previous attempts to lead and discipline the bishops regarding various issues, exclaimed, "I've told them, and they don't listen to me."
John Paul II, in effect, admitted that the U.S. bishops did not properly lead the Catholic Church in America.
What the pope found difficult to effectively confront – the exposure of clerical abuse in the U.S. Catholic Church – the U.S. media is now carrying out. Any remedy to the crisis of clerical abuse in America will be extremely painful – and costly.
Many Catholic bishops and faithful priests in the United States will have to "put on sackcloth and ashes – and do what's right," Fiore observed.
Fiore responded to the often-posed assertion that the solution to clerical abuse is a married clergy. "That's not the issue," Fiore stated, saying that in his private counseling he encountered victims of abuse at the hands of married Protestant and Jewish clergy, as well as by married, non-clerical men.
"The highest instance of sexual abuse," Fiore noted, "is among white, Anglo-Saxon, married males – and the victims [of sexual abuse] are primarily their own children."
Instead of relaxing traditional Church teaching on celibacy, Fiore demanded a greater – and more faithful – emphasis on the virtue of chastity, which calls for observance of Church law concerning sexuality as it pertains to one's calling in life – priest, married or single lay person.
In response to Cozzens, Fiore said that the ranks of priests and seminarians should be "zero percent" homosexuals, and he urged careful formation and guidance of seminarians by seminary personnel faithful to Church teaching.
Finally, it is the ultimate responsibility of Catholic bishops to certify the moral rectitude of those they ordain to the priesthood, Fiore stated.
When WorldNetDaily asked Fiore if he ever received payment for his counseling services, he said, "Yes, once – and only once. I split a dozen brownies with one of my young clients, whose mom had baked them for me."
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pentax
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Sep 29 2005, 08:49 PM
Post #69
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Kamloops - BC Interior
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- Jelly Bean
- Sep 29 2005, 04:08 PM
Root of the problem The Rev. Donald Cozzens, author of the 2000 book "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," estimates 50 percent of all Catholic priests are homosexual. Psychotherapist Richard Sipe, a former Catholic priest who has written and spoken widely on the priesthood, says 15 percent of homosexual priests are sexually active. If all homosexual clergy were to leave the U.S. Catholic Church now, the church would lose one-third of its bishops as well, added Mr. Sipe, whose new book on priestly sexual abuse dating back to the fourth century, comes out Nov. 15.
So what does this have to do with broad-brushing most of the Gay community as Pedophiles? It's like saying "over 90% of herion-addicts drank milk as a child, so if you drank milk, you're probably going to be a herion-addict."
Petzel Logic.
You are taking the acts of Pedophiles (yes, homosexual acts, I already explained that.) and applying them to an ENTIRELY different group of people - what's up with that?.... If a Black man on the street asked you for money, and you said no, and then he called you a "White B*tch" - does that mean ALL Black men think of you that way???
To blame one group for the actions of another, because you are able to establish a common factor or two, is simply "witch-burning".
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"Kirk to Enterprise - Very funny, Scotty.... now beam down my clothes!"
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roscoe
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Sep 29 2005, 09:19 PM
Post #70
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Jelly. Chris mentioned in his post one of the articles came from a site called cracked planet I believe. Being inquisitive I went there and found a sort of sex site.
If you goggle it you will see what I mean. I didn't mean to infer you get your info from it . I also didn't hang around it much as I made that mistake years ago.
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tomdrobin
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Sep 29 2005, 09:39 PM
Post #71
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If a male homosexual wants to be in the clergy, why not let him be a nun. Would fit right in, and wouldn't have to worry about being tempted.
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Jelly Bean
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Sep 29 2005, 09:56 PM
Post #72
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- roscoe
- Sep 29 2005, 09:19 PM
Jelly. Chris mentioned in his post one of the articles came from a site called cracked planet I believe. Being inquisitive I went there and found a sort of sex site.
If you goggle it you will see what I mean. I didn't mean to infer you get your info from it . I also didn't hang around it much as I made that mistake years ago.
no problem Roscoe, there must be two crack planet sites then, did you check out the one that actually had the article? The one with the article I pulled is NOT a porn site.
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Jelly Bean
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Sep 29 2005, 11:10 PM
Post #73
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http://www.hli.org/homosexuality_not_molestation.pdf
This is like a (10) page report on a study of homosexuality in relation to molestation. I have only began to read it, but it has a lot of meat to it. This is a real concern, that I believe is just not talked about, because people are already conditioned to believe it is "hateful" or as already mentioned; "homophobic" to talk about.
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Fr. Mike
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Sep 29 2005, 11:30 PM
Post #74
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Passinthru,
I understand your bewilderment. It sounds like your nephew will need to pursue his mission of service outside the priesthood. "GOD" obviously has other plans for him.
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A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ
Don't forget to say your prayers! The unborn have rights too.
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pentax
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Sep 30 2005, 01:08 AM
Post #75
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- Jelly Bean
- Sep 29 2005, 10:10 PM
More rhetoric and opinion from people who are undocumented and unknown....
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"Kirk to Enterprise - Very funny, Scotty.... now beam down my clothes!"
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