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Edict From The Pope; No gays allowed in Cath. Seminary
Topic Started: Sep 27 2005, 09:18 PM (1,908 Views)
PRT
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bikemanb
Oct 1 2005, 08:19 PM
I believe it is about time the church accept the idea of married clergy...

As a Catholic, I totally agree with this idea. I doubt if I will see it in my lifetime, but I don't see how the clergy can continue without the option of marriage.
I have known too many good men who left the pulpit to marry - well into their ministry; not as young men.
If they drive out homosexuals (whom I have absolutely no problem with) and don't allow married priests, who will serve? I don't mind the idea of women priests either, but that is eons away, I'm quite sure.
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Julie
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I dont think its such a bad idea for preists to marry either...however:
Im not sure what that has to do with preists who sexually abuse children.

Heres what I think: Pedophiles dont just become atracted to children when they are in the seminary...there is something wrong with them LONG before they enter the preisthood. By their very nature they are predetory.
Now, if you were a pedophile and you were looking for an opportunity to get some exposure to children, where would you look?
The preisthood is the perfect career of choice!
You are respected by many, you have access to children, children often wont tell because they bel;eive their preist is the closest to God one can get, who would beleive them. Even when they do tell, time and time again it has been shown that not much will come of it. Ahhh..you might be moved to another church where you have a fresh batch of kids to pick from. Pedophile preists are not "chosen by God to minister".....rather, pedophile preists have made a career choice that enables them to hide under a cloak of religion and prey on children.

Somewhere along the way, before preists are made preists, before they are exposed to families and children, the higher ups have to learn to recognize and look for signs of pedophilia.

This whole business of not allowing gays to enter the preisthood is nothing more than tossing us something that confuses the whole issue. Being gay and being a pedophile are NOT one in the same.
By banning gay preists we are not protecting kids. And Catholics are not demanding enough from their religion.
If you keep doing what you’ve always done, you’ll keep getting what you’ve always gotten.
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Julie
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Quote:
 
…The problem is not celibacy but rather a dangerous trait in clerical culture — an excessive compassion for priests who are in trouble. Like cops and doctors, priests stand by their own, sometimes when they shouldn't.

Pedophilia is a deeply rooted, at present incurable emotional disorder that some men bring to the priesthood, a twisted pattern of sexual desire whose demands are almost impossible to resist. Many of the pedophiles are themselves victims of childhood abuse and are more deserving of our sympathy than the bishops who reassign them to parishes. The priesthood doesn't make a person a pedophile. Most pedophiles are married men. Rather, the priesthood attracts pedophiles, as do other groups that deal with the young, like rabbis, ministers, educators, coaches. There are no psychological tests, so far, to filter out those with pedophile propensities. The problem for the church is, rather, that once it knew about such men, it often reassigned them to work where they have easy access to the young… Thus, until very recently, we simply denied abuse charges against our own, quoted with approval their denials, and demonized the victims and their families. The various priest organizations, locally and nationally, have been content with calls for the bishops to do something about the problem but also to protect the rights of the accused priests. When priests are asked by the media what they think about the pedophilia, they usually offer self-pity — how difficult it is now to know whether the lay people trust you. Very rarely do you hear a priest worry about what pedophilia has done to the image of the church or to the appeal of the priestly vocation. Almost never does one hear a word of compassion for the victims…-- Andrew M. Greeley, Pedophilia and celibacy
If you keep doing what you’ve always done, you’ll keep getting what you’ve always gotten.
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Jelly Bean
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PRT
Oct 1 2005, 06:27 PM
bikemanb
Oct 1 2005, 08:19 PM
I believe it is about time the church accept the idea of married clergy...

As a Catholic, I totally agree with this idea. I doubt if I will see it in my lifetime, but I don't see how the clergy can continue without the option of marriage.
I have known too many good men who left the pulpit to marry - well into their ministry; not as young men.
If they drive out homosexuals (whom I have absolutely no problem with) and don't allow married priests, who will serve? I don't mind the idea of women priests either, but that is eons away, I'm quite sure.

I'm glad that there are some men left who are willing to try and remain single for God, like Paul encouraged in the new testament. I don't believe it should be forbidden, but I completely believe it should be encouraged for those who can receive it.
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PRT
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Can ministers/preachers marry in your church?
We Catholics are just going to run out of priests sooner or later if things stay the way they are. I'm not disagreeing that celibacy is a worthy sacrifice, but I think it needs to be voluntary.
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cmoehle
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Chris - San Antonio TX
Why not let women become priests?
Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order.
--Barry Goldwater
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PRT
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Oh, I think women should be able to be priests, but there's some "rule" about it. Not too sure of the reason, but women priests are way down the road I'm afraid.
Celibacy restrictions would have a better chance of being lifted, but that's probably not going to happen tomorrow either. It's a pickle.
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TexasShadow
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Jane
re women priests......
the hierarchal argument is: a priest's job is to "be" Christ for his flock. Christ was a man; ergo........
To me, that's similar to the way our founding fathers viewed the constitution re women's rights....as if women are a separate species from mankind.

I myself would be completely satisfied if the church would just extend the diaconate(priest's helpers) to women. They would be able to baptise, do weddings and funerals and preach? not sure about that one.
And when the flock got used to seeing women in those positions, the church could extend their duties to counseling, visiting the sick and giving communion(some parishes already do this).....and draw the same comfort they do with male priests.

Technically, I don't see why women can't be priests because a priest is really just a Bishop's delegate...a helper/representative of the Bishop.
But I don't think the flock (as a whole) is really ready for that, yet. We western world catholics(modern thinkers) tend to forget that there are a lot of catholics(even among us) who are behind us in that respect....very chauvinistic.

I tend to look at the priest shortage as divine providence.....a nudge from God to push the hierarchy into changing their view about women....but they (it seems) tend to regard it as the devil's work. :(
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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PRT
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A female diaconate is a good idea and the familiarity issue is sensible. BTW, our deacons preach. (Our parish deacon preaches way too much! If you see him on the altar, run for your life.)

Women here distribute communion - I was a Eucharistic Minister years and years ago. That I see a lot. Maybe that isn't what you meant.

We had a nun on our parish staff several years ago and she was wonderful - so wonderful she and the pastor got married! They are still very wonderful people and still work in the service of the Lord. Haven't had a nun on staff since ;)

I hope this is a nudge :) Not too sure the powers that be don't need more than just a nudge...
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TexasShadow
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Jane
pat...
re eucharistic minister...
yes, me too. :), but was making a distinction between doing it at Mass vs taking it to homebound or hospitals. We were allowed to do it, but not sure all parishes do.
I was the only female eucharist minister for quite awhile. my female friends told me I was the token female, a suggestion? perhaps, that I shouldn't be doing it in a very conservative parish. didn't bother me. :)
Also did the readings. I recall the first time I did it, I memorized the whole passage and never looked down at the book. It was noticed ;) After that, I still memorized them, but looked down once in awhile to appear that I was reading.
I feel very lucky to have run into one priest in my life that didn't have a hangup re women(beware the strange woman) but then, he was one of those rare ones that was good at everything he did.
Posted Image "A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking."
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PRT
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TexasShadow
Oct 2 2005, 03:11 PM
Also did the readings. I recall the first time I did it, I memorized the whole passage and never looked down at the book. It was noticed ;)

I have never read from the pulpit on Sundays but was the designated reader at daily Mass - and famous for making up names :floorrollin: :floorrollin: Show me Daniel and those three guys and I would say "Daniel and the men." Worked for us. At seven or eight in the morning, who really cares?

Ours is a fairly liberal parish in many ways. It's a good parish with a lot of volunteers. We depend on our volunteers to be honest. We enjoy it and have been here 31 years. Wouldn't trade. We have also had excellent pastors with the exception of one fool, but we have a good one again. It does make a difference.
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Jelly Bean
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PRT
Oct 2 2005, 09:59 AM
Can ministers/preachers marry in your church?
We Catholics are just going to run out of priests sooner or later if things stay the way they are. I'm not disagreeing that celibacy is a worthy sacrifice, but I think it needs to be voluntary.

PRT, I don't say I belong to one particular church, but fellowship at many places, and with many people from all around...I take the attitude that the "church" of God isn't so much this one particular religious institution or that one, but a make up of different believers from all around, that includes catholics, and I hang with them, as well as protestants and non-denominationals from time to time as well.

I see catholics forbidding to marry in the priesthood, but then I see protestants encouraging to marry, and treating the single man of God as an odd sort.
I really believe if the Catholics started marrying off their priests, the whole idea of being single for God, would be lost to just the off-shoot places, and labeled as a cult practice. It's unfortunate, because it's a pearl in the Bible, I believe that Paul shared with us. Men and women should be encouraged to stay single or married, depending on their call to duty for God at the time, and their desires within them.
As far as women in the church, same thing...some take it to extremes either way. Paul said for the women to be silent in the church, to not usurp authority over man.
Women were all around the men of God in the new testament, and their were spiritual women, and they ministered to Christ himself...
It's about the "role" of authority and not crossing over that line with the males...
there is a balance in all these things, And being a women, I have yet to meet a man, Christian or otherwise who is comfortable with a women taking the lead...and have seen many have trouble when they try, including yours truly.

The way most people get around all this, is to just ignore Paul and his teachings, say it doesn't count, or just say that it wasn't for this time in their lives, or just his matter of opinion. He doesn't say these things as "have to's", but as a way that we can grow and all get along better in our walks with Christ, and with each other as brethren.
From what I have seen all around, I would agree with Paul and his teachings.

As with Paul, I agree with your statement PRT, wholeheartedly, that celibacy SHOULD be voluntary, and only for those who have no problem in the flesh. If a man burns in desire for his women though, it is not a sin to marry. However if a homosexual burns in his desire for the same sex, I don't believe it should be condoned to marry one another, and I have not a problem with someone being celibate from their sins...the pedophiles, should be celibate from their sins as well...the problem is when they have these unnatural desires they cannot control, and then they get elevated in a position in the church, and problems still arise...like we are seeing.
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PRT
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Well, we believe alike that the "church" per se is just people of God - or good people. We are the church.

I'm not sure about this statement of yours however.
Quote:
 
I really believe if the Catholics started marrying off their priests, the whole idea of being single for God, would be lost to just the off-shoot places, and labeled as a cult practice.

Aren't the large Protestant sects (Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, etc...) and the Jewish people encouraged to marry but still minister? I thought they were, but I certainly could be wrong.
I wouldn't call Methodists et al cults. They are all established religions and followed by a lot of good people.

I'm not going anywhere close to submissive women, because there we really differ.

I still really see the same direction but different paths... :)
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Jelly Bean
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It's the idea of being SINGLE for God, that I believe would be lost, once the catholic priests start marrying off.

Being a submissive women in the Bible, isn't necessarily what women or even some men today view submissive as. Men and women ARE equal. It's the roles we are talking about, and they are meant to be complimentray...and frankly, not workable if of course the male isn't loving the female as Christ loved the church...it's a BALANCE to strive for. On BOTH ends.
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Jelly Bean
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PRT
Oct 2 2005, 05:01 PM

I still really see the same direction but different paths... :)

PRT, as a side note...
I want you to know that I really do appreciate your openess and cordialness on these subjects...your comment about different paths touches me, because I believe that too, that we are all different with different perceptions that lead us on different walks as we move closer to God. It is so exciting when the paths meet up though.
There is a straight and narrow spiritual path that we are to travel...but you know, just as in natural paths, we do vere, stumble, and have are "maps" we like to go by....but all of us that believe in Christ, like yourself, are calling out to God our beacon to direct us. I do believe that we all can only be where we are at the time, and what works for us personally. He is faithful to have us arrive safely.
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