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| Separation Of Marriage And State | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 19 2005, 01:26 PM (218 Views) | |
| cmoehle | Feb 19 2005, 01:26 PM Post #1 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Found this to be an interesting op-ed on family values, the family values we hear so much about any more, well, no, not exactly those. Those family values are focused narrowly on a single issue, when marriage as a family value is such a bigger issue. And like other family values, one government should not intrude upon other than by choice. Bound by Choice: A modest step toward separation of marriage and state ...divorce has become much easier—too easy, in the eyes of many critics, who argue that the ability to unilaterally and arbitrarily sever what was once considered a lifelong bond has made the relationship barely distinguishable from cohabitation and contributed to unprecedented rates of family breakup. One intriguing response, in the news lately because of renewed attempts to promote the idea, is "covenant marriage," an option that makes breaking up harder to do. Unlike the "no-fault" laws adopted in the '60s and '70s, covenant marriage does not replace the existing divorce rules for everyone—only for couples who choose it. Hence it expands individual freedom and points the way toward a separation of state and marriage under which the government's role would be limited to enforcing voluntary contracts. Some people can't understand why anyone would want to stay in an "unhappy marriage"—i.e., a marriage one of the spouses wants to leave. Maggie Gallagher, a leading critic of "no-fault" divorce, pretty accurately describes their position this way: "You want to hold onto someone who doesn't want you anymore? What kind of loser are you?" ... This attitude discounts both the possibility of reconciliation—a possibility covenant marriage is designed to enhance—and the unfairness of abandoning a spouse who has sacrificed for years to build and preserve a relationship he or she expected to last, not to mention the suffering of children who bear no responsibility for their parents' breakup. Research on the consequences of divorce indicates it's wishful thinking to assume the rejected spouse and the children ultimately will be better off. Just as important, the ease of divorce affects how people approach marriage: their ability to trust each other, their willingness to compromise, the effort they put into working things out when the going gets rough. The essence of marriage, after all, is a commitment that transcends fleeting impulses, a choice to be bound by obligations that may sometimes feel onerous; otherwise there would be no point to the arrangement. University of Virginia sociologist Steven Nock reports that couples who choose covenant marriage are one-third less likely to get divorced within five years than couples who opt for the standard contract. Some of this difference could be due to greater initial commitment among people who are attracted to the more restrictive arrangement, who so far have been a much more select group than supporters of covenant marriage hoped or its opponents feared. ... The real potential of this movement may lie in its implicit argument that the government should not dictate the terms of marriage by imposing a one-size-fits-all contract on all couples, that instead it should let them choose the arrangement that suits them best. In this connection, it's striking that President Bush, who supports a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage, takes no position on covenant marriage, which he says is an issue for the states. It's hard to believe gay couples represent more of a threat to marriage than "no-fault" laws that, as a Christian activist interviewed by The New York Times put it, make marriage "easier to get out of" than "a contract to buy a used car." Conservatives should recognize that a government powerful enough to preserve marriage as they think it ought to be also is powerful enough to destroy it. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Fr. Mike | Feb 19 2005, 01:47 PM Post #2 |
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Interesting secular approach. It sounds like an attempt to bring the sacrament of marriage back into practice for those who abandoned it in favor of the "no fault" arrangement. Covenant is an interest title. |
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A humble servant of the Lord Jesus Christ Don't forget to say your prayers! The unborn have rights too. | |
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| cmoehle | Feb 19 2005, 01:52 PM Post #3 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Secular? A covenant marriage sounds religious to me. Takes vows as something serious if not sacred compared to what we have today. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| jrf | Feb 19 2005, 02:32 PM Post #4 |
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I am divorce and remarried. Something still remains on our insides between my ex-wife and me. We still have respect and concerns about each others' well being. In a way one could say we still love each other. This is not ruled by the government. It is not ruled by the church. And its not ruled by family. Its in my heart. And it won't go away. There were bad times for sure, but I do remember the days where being as close physically as we could possibly be simply was not enough. I remember the desire for more, the desire for my body to be completely absorbed into hers. Gov't, words, church, actions, time, you name it, just won't destroy memory. |
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| TexasShadow | Feb 19 2005, 03:53 PM Post #5 |
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Jane
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In really olden times, I suspect marriage agreements originated as a means of avoiding fighting over the females in the tribe. It also probably came about as a means of trade. A man with no sons needed to insure his old age retirement, so he put a price on his daughters. Marriage contracts are also a way of ensuring that the children are cared for in an orderly way...without them becoming wards of the state. I think society does have the right to demand financial responsibility from the man and woman who produce children. As for demanding responsibility for the child's spiritual/moral/ethical development, a contract cannot achieve this...just as a contract cannot achieve harmony between spouses. But if we're going to have a society where marriage is viewed as a temporary union, we have to construct a means of communal raising of the children because children without proper guidence are poor propects for good cititzenship. |
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| jrf | Feb 19 2005, 06:04 PM Post #6 |
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Damn, that's good. |
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| cmoehle | Feb 19 2005, 06:34 PM Post #7 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Perhaps more needs to be said what this covenant marriage movement is about. I guess if by secular is meant broader than any one special interest group, broader than one religion, broader than religion, broader than one party, broader than one country--OK. And rather than focus on one issue, it tackles the problem systemically. It does not replace marriage with somethng else, it enhances marriage. And it is prescriptive rather than proscriptive. From Covenant Marriage: It's a part of a Divorce Reform Movement. Sonsored by Americans for Divorce Reform. "What is covenant marriage? Covenant Marriage laws generally provide that a couple can choose, at the time of marriage or later, to have slightly more limited grounds for no-fault divorce in their marriage. The couple is required to get marriage education or counseling before their marriage (or the conversion of their marriage to a covenant marriage), and also before divorcing." "How do you get a covenant marriage? Legal Covenant Marriages are currently available only in Arkansas, Arizona and Louisiana. (Legislation for them also has passed one house, but not both, in Oregon, Georgia, Texas and Oklahoma.) In most states you do not have to be a state resident to get married in the state, or to "upgrade" an existing marriage into a Covenant Marriage. Non-Governmental Covenant Marriage: The concept of Covenant Marriage began mostly as a way of teaching people to renew and strengthen their marriages, not as legislation. The Covenant Marriage Movement offers marriage covenant documents, which are social, moral and spiritual contracts rather than legal ones. Dr. Bob Christensen's Covenant Marriages Ministry offers books and tapes on how to make your marriage a Covenant Marriage. People sometimes ask us if there are particular marriage vows that people use in covenant marriages. We do not know of wedding ceremonies being done any differently in covenant marriages, but there is a Covenant Marriage Vows Poem that you may find appropriate for your ceremony." |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| TexasShadow | Feb 19 2005, 06:50 PM Post #8 |
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Jane
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one way to encourage marriages to last is to give the couple a deduction in taxes for each 5 years they last.
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| jrf | Feb 19 2005, 07:02 PM Post #9 |
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Nope. When I'm around women the last thing I think about is taxes. Although I do know a guy that married a girl years ago and they went thru months of counseling prior to marriage. One of the things he learned and passed on to us other guys was that thinking of taxes during the sex thing can actually, for some odd reason, prevent the male from "completing his duty" and thus prolong the .... anyway it goes on from there. |
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| cmoehle | Feb 19 2005, 07:22 PM Post #10 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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So you're saying part of the answer is having a sense of humor? :think: |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| tomdrobin | Feb 19 2005, 10:58 PM Post #11 |
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I think this covenant marrige movement is an attempt to turn back time. I think if couples want that kind of committment it shoud be part of their personal and religious beliefs. Government should only provide for the formation of domestic partnerships, and the means for them to be disolved no fault, division of assetts and care for minor children if they don't work out. |
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| cmoehle | Feb 20 2005, 08:35 AM Post #12 |
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Chris - San Antonio TX
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Tom "I think if couples want that kind of commitment it should be part of their personal and religious beliefs. Government should only provide..." That's exactly what it is, in all respects, as I read it. In a way it is a backlash reaction to the social conservative over-emphasis on a single issue that spins prohibition as protection of marriage. It is an effort to get back to the basics of more serious commitment in marriage that involves not only personal choice but social--be it even the religious community--involvement in at least counseling--commitment to self, partner and community, and not in prohibiting but promoting family values. The movement has and does exist largely outside government, though some state governments are beginning to support it since it seems that's what democratically people want. |
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Politics is the art of achieving the maximum amount of freedom for individuals that is consistent with the maintenance of social order. --Barry Goldwater | |
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| Colo_Crawdad | Feb 20 2005, 08:38 AM Post #13 |
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Lowell
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Precisely the problem. Would this be one of those "unintended consequences" of a social conservative policy? Do remember that current attempts to overturn some court decisions are specifically attempts to destroy marriages, albeit marriages of which some do not approve. Who know what the next "unapproved ones" will be? |
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8:20 AM Jul 11